Helston Revisited

[Andy Keane]

7 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Paul. That was the temporary handpoint panel. A few pages later in the thread you can see the permanent panel, to the left of the frame, which has rotary switches for the hand points and biased toggle switches for the uncoupler magnets.

 

 

OK, that all makes sense. Do you have to hold the sprung points over or simply set them? Also I would be interested to know what type of uncoupler you are using.  

Andy

[Andy Keane]

Also has anyone tried proximity sensors to control sprung points as far as you know?

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

OK, that all makes sense. Do you have to hold the sprung points over or simply set them? Also I would be interested to know what type of uncoupler you are using.  

Andy

Andy, none of the working hand points are models of spring points. They are conventional two-way points as used in goods yards, for example. The rotary switch is turned so that the knob points to the selected track.

 

All the trap points and the spring catch points on the layout are dummies and so are not worked at all.

[Andy Keane]

OK, I think I plan to add some extra frame levers for those and colour them black over white. Not standard but tidy. 

But I will see if an IR sensor can work the sprung points alongside the frame control. 

Andy

[Harlequin]

Have you considered making real sprung points? (Sorry I haven't read all the way back.)

 

Something like this: Take the over-centre spring out of the Peco turnout, make the hole in the baseboard just as you would for a point motor, get a bit of lightly springy wire, push it up through the baseboard hole and tiebar hole and fix below so that it very lightly holds the blades whichever way you want.

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Harlequin

[Stubby47]

3 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Have you considered making real sprung points? (Sorry I haven't read all the way back.)

 

Something like this: Take the over-centre spring out of the Peco turnout, make the hole in the baseboard just as you would for a point motor, get a bit of lightly springy wire, push it up through the baseboard hole and tiebar hole and fix below so that it very lightly holds the blades whichever way you want.

 

 

How would you work the frog polarity on a self-sprung point ?

[Harlequin]

1 minute ago, Stubby47 said:

 

How would you work the frog polarity on a self-sprung point ?

Frog Juicer.

 

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Stubby47 said:

 

How would you work the frog polarity on a self-sprung point ?

In my case the sprung points also had ground levers so you could decide which way to go from the facing direction so would need a lever for that somewhere, hence I will add these at the side of the main frame. I want sprung action so on run around etc I don't have to work the point manually. Since ground levers are often white and frame switch levers black I am inventing a black over white combo for a frame lever controlling a ground point!

Hope that's not too eccentric. 

Andy

Ps I plan a slight delay on the spring sensor to hold the point sprung until the last axle clears the blades. 

[Harlequin]

Here's a refinement of the idea for sprung points that would allow them to act like real sprung points while also being controllable to simulate a local hand-point lever, as you require, Andy:

 

It's really simple: Remove the over-centre spring, give the turnout a normal point motor, just use a much finer springy wire with the point motor than normal. So the point motor can move the points as normal but the wire only holds them very lightly in either direction. Feed the frog through a frog juicer to allow locos to use either trailing route regardless of which way the points are set.

 

Bob's your Uncle Robert. You can run through the points and reverse onto the other route without anyone operating them, just like the real thing, but you can also operate them if and when you need to.

 

[Andy Keane]

Interesting, the same effect as a proximity sensor driving the point motor but without the electronics.  I guess I need to conduct some experiments. 

Andy

[Andy Keane]

16 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Hi Andy,

 

I’ve made up a table for the 1956 frame which I think will also be what was present in 1932.  Following a comment from The Stationmaster, and the photo of the point indicator signal, I have assumed that the diagram has transposed the shunt signal and the indicator.  Since no-one can know for sure, we can’t be wrong!  There aren’t enough levers to signal the Stone Siding accessed from the Loading Dock so I have also assumed that shunt signal 4 in the Dock is fitted with a white light to permit a move into the siding when the signal is on.  It’s all right under the eyes of the signalman so can be controlled safely by communication between him and the shunter.

 

Paul.

 

Helston 1956.pdf 41.52 kB · 6 downloads

Paul,  technical question on sprung points. If you changed the point with the ground lever would it then be sprung in the other direction or firmly set by the lever? I'm just thinking about how to wire proximity sensor action.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Andy Keane

[Regularity]

15 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Andy, the FPLs are dummies but the levers are there for the interlocking - they just don't activate anything.

Jas Millham uses his to switch the power feed for point levers off and on, so for example, the turnout is thrown, then locked by pulling the FPL to prevent the turnout changing.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Regularity
Autocorrect

[Andy Keane]

5 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Jas Millham uses his to switch the power feed for point levers off and on, so for example, the turnout is thrown, then locked by pulling the FPL to prevent the turnout changing.

Yes, I see I could do that but not sure if I would not end up confusing myself when driving! But it would make the frame more accurate. Decisions. I suppose it would be relatively easy to add/remove though. Maybe over time I could aspire to be a junior signalman. 

[Andy Keane]

Just back from Scotland where I have been studying the real thing:

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

On 25/06/2021 at 10:51, 5BarVT said:

From SRS records, I think that the box had a new frame in 1958.  The 1956 diagram shows a 15 lever frame 'bung full' and numbered 0-14, always indicative of an extra lever being added.  There are two signal 4, selected by point lie, another lever saving trick and the numbering is a bit mixed up, again indicating to me that alterations have been made using the levers available.  The '58 frame is numbered in a conventional 'modern' format.

With that introduction, on to the questions.

'Signal 13': the 'old' signal (I think) is more of a points indicator, hence positioned at the toes of the point.  With the new frame, signal 13 is provided as protection against the locomotive running round.  Possibly of little value in risk reduction as the train doesn't have anything to move it when the loco is detached!

Spring hand points are more of a p-way thing than signalling, but as you said later, the lever allows a facing move in the non sprung direction.  My feeling on the points from the goods shed is to reduce the risk of derailing when propelling in/out of the shed and not realising how far beyond the end of the rake is.  Interestingly the top photo shows the points lying the opposite way to their supposed sprung position, and the lower photo shows wagons standing across the point also against the supposed sprung position! 

Paul.

Paul

I haver updated my 1958 drawing for completeness before I draw out the 1956 one and also added a table in the format you used for your 1956 frame layout. Could you please just cast an eye over these and let me know if I have any mistakes in them.

many thanks

Andy

HELSTON 1958 Lever Functions.pdf

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Mulgabill]

10 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Paul

I haver updated my 1958 drawing for completeness before I draw out the 1956 one and also added a table in the format you used for your 1956 frame layout. Could you please just cast an eye over these and let me know if I have any mistakes in them.

many thanks

Andy

HELSTON 1958 Lever Functions.pdf 81.65 kB · 1 download

 

I believe No 8 should be a yellow ground signal, from discussion on Helstonish an age ago.

 

Or is my memory failing me, Paul?

 

TONY

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, Mulgabill said:

 

I believe No 8 should be a yellow ground signal, from discussion on Helstonish an age ago.

 

Or is my memory failing me, Paul?

 

TONY

Happy to correct it - I did not even know ground signals could be yellow! No doubt Paul will know. I have at least changed the shunt ahead to the correct colours.

Andy

[Michael Hodgson]

A yellow ground signal can be passed in the On position unless the points are set for the route to which it applies (which in this case means out of the yard onto the running line) - so if it is only shuttling back and forth into that headshunt, the signalman doesn't have to get off his backside to clear the signal.  They were not that common, and typically found at busier boxes where they enable shunters in a yard or loco depot to carry on doing what they need to do without continually having to bother the signalman whose first attention must be given to any train movements on the running lines.  They look the same as an ordinary shunting disc except that the "arm" is yellow rather than red, and so is the lens over the lamp.  Ground position lights can do the same but have yellow bulbs rather than red, although yellow shunts are now out of favour.

[5BarVT]

16 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Just back from Scotland where I have been studying the real thing:

Nice photos.

Did you intentionally take a photo of the arrangements to select one of two signals depending on point lie?  (Lever 4 in the 56 frame.)

In photo 2 the contraption with the three channel rods with a wheel bolted to the top is connected to lever 5 in their frame to do exactly that.

Also nice memories of my working life from the photo of AV5: if the main arm is cleared, passenger moves to be signalled straight in to the preserved platform when the Royal Scotsman runs.

Paul.

[Andy Keane]

On 10/07/2021 at 13:51, 5BarVT said:

Nice photos.

Did you intentionally take a photo of the arrangements to select one of two signals depending on point lie?  (Lever 4 in the 56 frame.)

In photo 2 the contraption with the three channel rods with a wheel bolted to the top is connected to lever 5 in their frame to do exactly that.

Also nice memories of my working life from the photo of AV5: if the main arm is cleared, passenger moves to be signalled straight in to the preserved platform when the Royal Scotsman runs.

Paul.

TBH I was not at all sure what I was looking at - the more I see of these things the more I realise how little I know. As a kid I did permenant way work as a volunteer but was never allowed near signals and points.

So in Helston pre56 there would have been something like this buried under the signal box? Or would it have been outside?

The other thing that amazed me up there is that due to preservation orders on some of the boxes the main line to Inverness is still controlled old school with semaphores and conventional point levers! I guess training up people to run those boxes must be interesting!

How am I doing on my post58 drawing and table?

Andy

(ps did you work the Scottish lines at some time?)

(pps for those interested a photo of a shark with mini snow plough / cattle catcher - I don't recall seeing that before):

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

On 10/07/2021 at 13:42, Michael Hodgson said:

A yellow ground signal can be passed in the On position unless the points are set for the route to which it applies (which in this case means out of the yard onto the running line) - so if it is only shuttling back and forth into that headshunt, the signalman doesn't have to get off his backside to clear the signal.  They were not that common, and typically found at busier boxes where they enable shunters in a yard or loco depot to carry on doing what they need to do without continually having to bother the signalman whose first attention must be given to any train movements on the running lines.  They look the same as an ordinary shunting disc except that the "arm" is yellow rather than red, and so is the lens over the lamp.  Ground position lights can do the same but have yellow bulbs rather than red, although yellow shunts are now out of favour.

Michael - I am still a bit confused by what the yellow allows. Are you saying the driver can ignore it provided he is not going as far as the main running line? At Helston the point next to it is the one that gives access to the goods shed and was not controlled from the box, just by a ground lever. The colour image I have shows it as being red on white however.

Andy

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

3 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Happy to correct it - I did not even know ground signals could be yellow! No doubt Paul will know. I have at least changed the shunt ahead to the correct colours.

Andy

I have looked up my few colour images and it is clearly red on white when that was taken, see above. Maybe this changed in 1958 along with the frame?

Andy

Edited July 10, 2021 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

On 25/06/2021 at 17:02, Andy Keane said:

Good thoughts. I think I can add a facing loco spur if I swap the curved point for a double slip, but it would need Marcway to build a curved double slip. Probably worth it though.

I am not keen on lifts - they seem too artificial for my taste.

Also the plan is for four stock lines and two run around lines (the top and middle).

Andy 

With a very slight rejig I can now get the loco spurs at the other end with standard Peco code 75 track:

 

What do people think of this revised fiddle yard? The far end loco spurs end up around 260mm long or more while those at the near end are currently 235mm. Of course I can equalize them, and shorten or lengthen them by playing with the main siding lengths. Given the longest loco a branch like Helston would ever see was a Dukedog I don't strictly need longer ones but then in my world who knows when a Castle class might arrive with a special!

BTW does anyone know the overall length of the Bachmann Dukedog?

Andy

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Regularity]

I may be wrong, but the use of a yellow disc for exit from a goods yard/siding onto running tracks may have been an LMS-thing, brought in via BR. If so, unless there was resignalling work being done, a “standard” ground disc, which was passable at danger when the points were set for the headshunt, etc, would carry on in use.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

Michael - I am still a bit confused by what the yellow allows. Are you saying the driver can ignore it provided he is not going as far as the main running line? At Helston the point next to it is the one that gives access to the goods shed and was not controlled from the box, just by a ground lever. The attached colour image shows it as being red on white however.

Andy

 

 

A yellow shunt is not so much disregarded as just not applicable when the points are lying away from the running line.  In the case of this signal, it would apply if 7 points were reversed.  

If however a red signal is used in  the same place, it would need to be cleared for both routes - ie whether 7 was Normal or Reverse.

 

It wouldn't have changed from yellow to red between the two diagrams but rather the other way round!  So your colour photo confirms that it was red throughout.  This is consistent with Pryer Volume 16 which has both the 1945 and 1959* diagrams, and neither shows any yellow discs.  

 

Looking at the 1956 diagram, there was only a trap point as the Stone Chute Siding wasn't there and the only valid route was onto the running line.  The disc (then No. 4) would therefore have been the standard red.   4 lever was "Selected" which means it could be pulled if 6 points were Reversed, with 8 points normal and the the left hand disc in your photo would come off, but 4 lever could also be pulled with both 6 and points Reverse, in which case the right hand disc signal would come off instead.  It's the position of 8 which decides which signal clears when you pull that lever.

 

After the resignalling the lever numbers changed and the two shunt discs were operated by separate levers - Number 6 lever for the disc reading out of the goods shed/engine loop (depending on the hand point) and requiring 4 and 5 Reverse.  Number 8 lever for the back siding would be released when 4 and 7 were Reverse and would also be released by 7 Normal.  You would only be able to pull 7 after you had pulled 4, because it still acts as a trap point.

 

When the siding was added as shown in the 1958 diagram, they either had to replace the red disc with a yellow one and leave the interlocking alone, or retain the red one but change the locking so that 8 could also be pulled when 7 lever was Normal.  The former would be a much simpler job but your colour photo confirms the latter.

 

* effective from January 1958 following the replacement of the lever frame.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Michael Hodgson