Helston Revisited

[Andy Keane]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

A yellow shunt is not so much disregarded as just not applicable when the points are lying away from the running line.  In the case of this signal, it would apply if 7 points were reversed.  

If however a red signal is used in  the same place, it would need to be cleared for both routes - ie whether 7 was Normal or Reverse.

 

It wouldn't have changed from yellow to red between the two diagrams but rather the other way round!  So your colour photo confirms that it was red throughout.  This is consistent with Pryer Volume 16 which has both the 1945 and 1959 diagrams, and neither shows any yellow discs.  

 

Looking at the 1956 diagram, there was only a trap point as the Stone Chute Siding wasn't there and the only valid route was onto the running line.  The disc (then No. 4) would therefore have been the standard red.   4 lever was "Selected" which means it could be pulled if 6 points were Reversed, with 8 points normal and the the left hand disc in your photo would come off, but 4 lever could also be pulled with both 6 and points Reverse, in which case the right hand disc signal would come off instead.  It's the position of 8 which decides which signal clears when you pull that lever.

 

After the resignalling the lever numbers changed and the two shunt discs were operated by separate levers - Number 6 lever for the disc reading out of the goods shed/engine loop (depending on the hand point) and requiring 4 and 5 Reverse.  Number 8 lever for the back siding would be released when 4 and 7 were Reverse and would also be released by 7 Normal.  You would only be able to pull 7 after you had pulled 4, because it still acts as a trap point.

 

When the siding was added as shown in the 1958 diagram, they either had to replace the red disc with a yellow one and leave the interlocking alone, or retain the red one but change the locking so that 8 could also be pulled when 7 lever was Normal.  The former would be a much simpler job but your colour photo confirms the latter.

Michael

I am trying to model 1930 so I need an earlier diagram and frame layout. Further up this thread there is some chat about this with Paul 5BarVT. We think the stone shute went in 1932 and as I want to keep it I am going earlier - what I call phase 2 of the track plan. I started out drawing up the 58 plan beacuse we had best info on this. I am currently actively trying to finalise the 1930 plan and so need to know any changes from then to 1956. Paul has the frame layout as per his PDF above. All input really most welcome. Do you have the details for 1945 as I currently don't.

Andy

[Andy Keane]

8 minutes ago, Regularity said:

I may be wrong, but the use of a yellow disc for exit from a goods yard/siding onto running tracks may have been an LMS-thing, brought in via BR. If so, unless there was resignalling work being done, a “standard” ground disc, which was passable at danger when the points were set for the headshunt, etc, would carry on in use.

I think we must conclude that Helston never had such a thing so thats one less item to worry about!

Andy

[BMacdermott]

Hello Andy

 

Firstly, well done on a very nice layout and all the preparations you have made.

 

I wonder if anyone can tell me where the loaded Hopper Wagons went to. I have looked on line but found nothing. And none of my books are specific to Helston.

 

Many thanks

 

Brian

[Regularity]

37 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

I am trying to model 1930 so I need an earlier diagram and frame layout. Further up this thread there is some chat about this with Paul 5BarVT. We think the stone shute went in 1932 and as I want to keep it I am going earlier - what I call phase 2 of the track plan.

One thought on this, for all you know, in your alternative world where trains at smaller, the traffic might have lasted just a bit longer, so if you wish to run locos (for example) with the more modern Collett style cab, a little bit of bending history is surely OK?

[5BarVT]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

TBH I was not at all sure what I was looking at - the more I see of these things the more I realise how little I know. As a kid I did permenant way work as a volunteer but was never allowed near signals and points.

Quite right too, we can’t let p-way near our clever stuff. :-)

(Interdepartmental rivalry, actually p-way design is quite clever stuff too.)
 

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

So in Helston pre56 there would have been something like this buried under the signal box? Or would it have been outside?

Under the box - the ‘floating’ wheel would have been hung from the lever tail.  Can’t be done on a ground frame (the clue is in the name ‘ground’.).
 

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

The other thing that amazed me up there is that due to preservation orders on some of the boxes the main line to Inverness is still controlled old school with semaphores and conventional point levers! I guess training up people to run those boxes must be interesting!

Not preservation orders that keeps the semaphores, just hasn’t been resignalled yet.  Aviemore and Pitlochry were only done in the last couple of years (hence my involvement with the Boat of Garten interface.

 

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

How am I doing on my post58 drawing and table?

I will get round to that . . .

 

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

(ps did you work the Scottish lines at some time?)

ScR and successors from 1988 to 2020, although from 2000 “I interfered with resignallings throughout the country”.

 

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

(pps for those interested a photo of a shark with mini snow plough / cattle catcher - I don't recall seeing that before):

It’s not a snow plough, it’s a ballast plough for clearing off sleepers after ballasting.  My impression is that’s what a Shark is: a brake van fitted with a ballast plough.

 

Paul.
 

 

[5BarVT]

7 hours ago, Mulgabill said:

 

I believe No 8 should be a yellow ground signal, from discussion on Helstonish an age ago.

 

Or is my memory failing me, Paul?

 

TONY

I think you are right, I did say that a while back . . .

 

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I have looked up my few colour images and it is clearly red on white when that was taken, see above. Maybe this changed in 1958 along with the frame?

Andy

. . . but now I’m beginning to doubt . . .

 

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

I may be wrong, but the use of a yellow disc for exit from a goods yard/siding onto running tracks may have been an LMS-thing, brought in via BR. If so, unless there was resignalling work being done, a “standard” ground disc, which was passable at danger when the points were set for the headshunt, etc, would carry on in use.

. . . The Stationmaster (who knows much more than me about WR mechanical signalling) has said that they first appeared in WR instructions in the early 50s.

 

So it could have been changed to a yellow disc, but may well not have been, and certainly at the time of the photo it wasn’t.  And wouldn’t have been in 1932, but (I think) would have had a white rather than red light when on.  (Thus was the GWR equivalent in this application.)

 

Paul.

 

Paul.

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

When the siding was added as shown in the 1958 diagram, they either had to replace the red disc with a yellow one and leave the interlocking alone, or retain the red one but change the locking so that 8 could also be pulled when 7 lever was Normal.  The former would be a much simpler job but your colour photo confirms the latter.

Or leave the red disc (with white light) . . .

The mechanical locking for the 1958 frame shows 8 released by 7 so still only applying to the move out onto the single line.

Paul.

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Andy

 

Firstly, well done on a very nice layout and all the preparations you have made.

 

I wonder if anyone can tell me where the loaded Hopper Wagons went to. I have looked on line but found nothing. And none of my books are specific to Helston.

 

Many thanks

 

Brian

No idea - you can however see on the OS mapping a quarry just a few hundred yards from the siding, but interestingly its access road does not lead directly to the stone shute - any stone dug there would have to go right around the station for loading!

Edited July 10, 2021 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

Next thinking about the signals themselves. The Dapol ones look quite good. So a couple of these would do two of what I need:

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/4L-001-006-Junction-Signal-GWR-Left-hand-with-two-arms-shorter-post-to-Left

I wonder if I could butcher one of these to give me the home and shunt ahead signal where the shunt ahead is not on a bracket but just on  thye main post. Any thoughts? I think it would be simpler to just fix on the white "S" for the earlier pattern shunt signal.

Also the incoming fixed distance signal could be from the same series though a tad expensive just for a fixed signal.

Not at all sure about the ground signals though.

Andy

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

Quite right too, we can’t let p-way near our clever stuff. :-)

(Interdepartmental rivalry, actually p-way design is quite clever stuff too.)
 

Under the box - the ‘floating’ wheel would have been hung from the lever tail.  Can’t be done on a ground frame (the clue is in the name ‘ground’.).
 

Not preservation orders that keeps the semaphores, just hasn’t been resignalled yet.  Aviemore and Pitlochry were only done in the last couple of years (hence my involvement with the Boat of Garten interface.

 

I will get round to that . . .

 

ScR and successors from 1988 to 2020, although from 2000 “I interfered with resignallings throughout the country”.

 

It’s not a snow plough, it’s a ballast plough for clearing off sleepers after ballasting.  My impression is that’s what a Shark is: a brake van fitted with a ballast plough.

 

Paul.
 

 

I did not realise that signalling was still not all changed over! There is however a preservation order on the Kingussie box: https://her.highland.gov.uk/Monument/MHG51199 so even when they resignal that bit of the line the box will remain which is nice. I wonder what will happen to it long term. I live in Romsey and here the locals grabbed our box and moved it a few hundred yards and lovingly tend to it with a little bit of track of its own - perhaps you know it? The station master at Boat said there was another bit being preserved on their mainline too but I am not sure where.

Interesting too about the ballast plough - another new thing I have learnt at the age of 63.

Andy

(nb my PW work involved sledge hammers and chisels on stubborn fishplate bolts so not that clever - but it did teach technique with a 14lb hammer.)

[5BarVT]

20 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Also the incoming fixed distance signal could be from the same series though a tad expensive just for a fixed signal.

Will you have space to represent the fixed distant?  800 yards out is probably not on your model.

If you do, be aware that GWR fixed distants didn’t have a spectacle plate, just the arm and a special lamp with a yellow lens.

Ratio kit would be easy to bash to suit.

Paul.

[Mulgabill]

It's no wonder I've not been able to report any modelling lately, it just about takes all my time

keeping up with this thread. (And updating my thoughts re Helstonish).

 

So a few miscellaneous wooly thoughts, on recent comments.

 

Paul - dont worry Helstonish currently has a black disc, with yellow bar, and will continue to

do so, until I'm brave enough to follow Johns instructions for a working version. (It helps that it's

an ish).

 

The stone loaded was specifically serpentine, which is only found on the Lizard. Nobody seems to

be sure where, or for what use, but there was some mention of the early nuclear industry. That

would be post 56, but the earlier application is unknown.

 

Re the fixed distant, Mike the stationmaster, recently quoted a scale, prototypical distance, (which I've

already forgotten). But it could imply that the cost should fall on your neighbour, 'cos it would be

in his bathroom!

 

Good to see some more colour pics on here, I'm learning so much more about "my" prototype.

 

TONY

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

Will you have space to represent the fixed distant?  800 yards out is probably not on your model.

If you do, be aware that GWR fixed distants didn’t have a spectacle plate, just the arm and a special lamp with a yellow lens.

Ratio kit would be easy to bash to suit.

Paul.

I don't really have the space - my distant will be about 50 yds the other side of the bridge but a shame not to have one at all - since its fixed at least I can decide on that as I build.

Andy

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Mulgabill said:

It's no wonder I've not been able to report any modelling lately, it just about takes all my time

keeping up with this thread. (And updating my thoughts re Helstonish).

 

So a few miscellaneous wooly thoughts, on recent comments.

 

Paul - dont worry Helstonish currently has a black disc, with yellow bar, and will continue to

do so, until I'm brave enough to follow Johns instructions for a working version. (It helps that it's

an ish).

 

The stone loaded was specifically serpentine, which is only found on the Lizard. Nobody seems to

be sure where, or for what use, but there was some mention of the early nuclear industry. That

would be post 56, but the earlier application is unknown.

 

Re the fixed distant, Mike the stationmaster, recently quoted a scale, prototypical distance, (which I've

already forgotten). But it could imply that the cost should fall on your neighbour, 'cos it would be

in his bathroom!

 

Good to see some more colour pics on here, I'm learning so much more about "my" prototype.

 

TONY

Tony

Sorry to blether on but I am firmly hooked now I am back in the saddle and all the help on this place (and certainly yours) is helping me avoid a huge pile of gotchas.

Andy

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Mulgabill said:

It's no wonder I've not been able to report any modelling lately, it just about takes all my time

keeping up with this thread. (And updating my thoughts re Helstonish watching Le Tour).

Ditto!

Paul.

[Andy Keane]

On 08/07/2021 at 21:13, 5BarVT said:

Hi Andy,

 

I’ve made up a table for the 1956 frame which I think will also be what was present in 1932.  Following a comment from The Stationmaster, and the photo of the point indicator signal, I have assumed that the diagram has transposed the shunt signal and the indicator.  Since no-one can know for sure, we can’t be wrong!  There aren’t enough levers to signal the Stone Siding accessed from the Loading Dock so I have also assumed that shunt signal 4 in the Dock is fitted with a white light to permit a move into the siding when the signal is on.  It’s all right under the eyes of the signalman so can be controlled safely by communication between him and the shunter.

 

Paul.

 

Helston 1956.pdf 41.52 kB · 8 downloads

Paul

This is my attempt at interpreting your table. Please let me know what and where I have gotten it wrong! I am sure I have not understood disc 7 - you have it listed as Disc Main to Engine Spur but it looks like the run around up release on the diagram. Its also the one you were questioning on the diagram. As before where I have used A and B I am assuming the one lever does both things, either directly or by the point driving the disk etc - is that OK?

thanks

Andy

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

10 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Ditto!

Paul.

The tour is also playing in the backgoround here every evening from 7-8! Great minds.

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, Regularity said:

I may be wrong, but the use of a yellow disc for exit from a goods yard/siding onto running tracks may have been an LMS-thing, brought in via BR.

That's probably correct. The 1936 GWR General Appendix does not show yellow discs but the 1960 WR Regional Appendix (to the BR General Appendix) does.

[St Enodoc]

On 09/07/2021 at 15:53, Andy Keane said:

OK, that all makes sense. Do you have to hold the sprung points over or simply set them? Also I would be interested to know what type of uncoupler you are using.  

Andy

Sorry Andy, I didn't answer your second question.

 

I use DGs:

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/couplings/dgb/

[Andy Keane]

22 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Sorry Andy, I didn't answer your second question.

 

I use DGs:

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/couplings/dgb/

Thanks - I will investigate - do you have any photos on your pages showing them realtively close up?

Andy

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Thanks - I will investigate - do you have any photos on your pages showing them realtively close up?

Andy

 

[MJI]

The serpentine hoppers, cannot find where it went, but in 1960s ex LMS Iron Stone hoppers were used.

 

The Shark, there is a good Cambrian kit of them, I have one, along with quite a few Dogfish.

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

 

Thanks - are they realtively easy to fit to rolling stock etc? Are they relatively reliable? I have also looked at the Kadee couplers but they look very American.

Andy

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

The serpentine hoppers, cannot find where it went, but in 1960s ex LMS Iron Stone hoppers were used.

 

The Shark, there is a good Cambrian kit of them, I have one, along with quite a few Dogfish.

The early use of the stone siding is a mystery to me. In '58 it was restored and as you say ex LMS hoppers are shown in photos but I don't have any photos of the pre '32 working of the stone siding so will be making that up as I go along unless something turns up.

Andy

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, Andy Keane said:

Thanks - are they realtively easy to fit to rolling stock etc? Are they relatively reliable? I have also looked at the Kadee couplers but they look very American.

Andy

There's a bit of a knack to making them but once you've built a few and settled into your own way then they are easy to build. Fitting - how long is a piece of string? You need to make sure that the buffing plate is just in front of the buffers and the bottom of the buffing plate is a constant height above rail level About 8mm works well in my, and others', experience.

 

Once fitted and adjusted they are indeed very reliable.