Carlisle Citadel in Late Victorian Times

[Citadel]

 

 

Mrs Fothergill is very disappointed.  She's got all dressed up to go to a ball in Silloth on the North British but she's just found out that the station hasn't been built yet.  In fact it's worse than that, I haven't even started the baseboard...

Seriously though, relatively new to railway modelling but over lockdown finally found the time to indulge.  Have to admit come at it more from the perspective of a 'model builder' rather than an 'operator' - started to dip my toe into posting on RMWeb in the Kitbuilding & Scratchbuilding forum and found the feedback and advice received has really spurred me on:

 

 

Now finished the room above the garage/workshop and was mulling over some layout ideas.  Something inspired by Carlisle Station really appeals - firstly the track layout is not super-complex and secondly there can be very few locations which have so much variety in terms of operating companies.  Looking at the timetable below what an experience it would have been to see it in reality (and this is before the Midland arrived in 1876)....

 

 

 

Originally had decided to focus on the short period between the Midland arriving and the station expansion in the late 1870's - largely down to keeping the size of the project manageable but also saw that freight was diverted away from the station at this time (and I do like freight...).   Dawning realisation though that info and resources available for this period are a pretty sparse and the 1880's offer so much potential in terms of modelling locos / stock.  Also essentially the fabric of the 1880 station is still there and only 40 miles away so can see it with my own eyes (and finally if I creep into the 1890's/1900's the location is still appropriate).

 

When I first started looking at RMWeb last March was really blown away by Paternosterrow's work:

 

 

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so got me thinking about whether a more diorama and photographic backdrop type approach might be more appropriate (as mentioned suspect I'm primarily a model builder - but do still see the trains moving!)  Very conscious that most of the be photos I see are from within the structure at platform level (rather from a drone) so want to try and get right inside the station.  Just can't get these two images out of my head...  

 

 

 

 

The track plan of Carlisle isn't super complex - but it is too large to contemplate (unless you own a barn in France - that layout is seriously impressive by the way...)  

 

 

 

Was thinking about doing something from the perspective of a passenger waiting on Platform 2 (which would see as the 'front' of the layout).  The roof is supported by full height walls which also incorporate the elegant original station building - would make this the backdrop.  The buildings between Platform 1/2 would have to be omitted where appropriate so as not to obscure the view.   There does need to be a representation of the roof and at the ends would use the interior of the gothic screens as a scenic barrier - essentially you view from the front as if through a letterbox.  Rerailing, uncoupling hmmm.... will cross that bridge when I come to it (have harebrained schemes around removable sections of roof for emergencies).  At the end of the day looks something like this:

 

 

Uninformed optimism is a great thing (am sure informed pessimism will kick in quite quickly) but at the moment key focus is still really on building stock / locomotives etc.  I've hoovered up must of the literature on the L&NWR so my real interest is in the other constituent companies.  Always had a soft spot for the Midland (being a Chesterfield lad originally), could someone point me in the direction of suitable stock re: the early days of the Settle-Carlisle and the Scotch Expresses - really look forward to getting stuck into something crimson.  Don't mind s bit of scratch building as appropriate, can see the Midland Study Centre has some really great resources but need a bit of advice around what prototypes are appropriate for this period and location. 

 

Oh, and feel free to make a case for the G&SWR, Caledonian, NBR, NER and the Maryport & Carlisle - feel a bit like a kid in a sweet shop at present.

 

Working in 4mm scale (EM, my abilities definitely don’t stretch to P4)

 

Yours in naive optimism

 

Mike

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by Citadel

[Caley Jim]

Hi Mike.  Ambitious project!  The Caledonian Association can provide all the info you are likely to need on the CR.

 

Jim

[WFPettigrew]

And the Cumbrian Railways Association is a fount of wisdom* on the Maryport and Carlisle.  Good luck - if it's half as good as your rolling stock so far it is going to be quite special!

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[ChrisN]

Looks to be a great idea.  There are so many things to do though, have you thought about your approach?

 

Have a scatter approach and try and mug up on everything at once and build things randomly.  You will not get bored like that, but you might get a bit frustrated as nothing will be finished until the end.

 

Mug up on the LNWR and build a train or two, with or without a loco, and then move onto the next company and do the same?  If that becomes boring you can go back and do a coach/wagon or two from the LNWR for variety.  The further you get on the more you can go back to previous things for variety.

 

When will you do the baseboard, and will you get frustrated if it is not running?  Getting it made and the track down and things working does not mean that it has to be ballasted and fully scienic'd, adding another level of diversity of interest.  My layout is built but I do not have running sessions, except with the grand children, when modelling time is short.

 

Finally, may I suggest that you put links in your signature to your different threads, that way when someone finds one of them, they can find the others easily as well.

[Citadel]

Thanks Chris

 

Sound advice and really appreciate your comments!  Do like to have a grand plan but as you say, one small step at a time....   Do realise it’s going to take 20 years....

 

To be honest my real passion is the satisfaction gained from building things (and to an extent this is only realised when they are completed - but in my world this can be something as discrete as an individual carriage).  Also the social history side of railways and the Victorian period in general.  Carlisle for me is so fascinating, I live 40 miles up the road in Moffat and catch the train from there regularly (well, prior to the crazy times we’ve lived through for the past two years).  What an amazing experience it would be to stand on that platform in the 19th century - essentially the fabric of the station is largely unchanged.

 

My initial focus is to improve my kit building and then scratch building skills and then move on to a locomotives (and the fettling involved).  To be honest though quite like the scope Carlisle gives me to not limit this to the LNWR - any completed loco or carriage is a source of satisfaction to me and variety is the spice of life.  

 

Based on your comments think will start with small. test track (so no scenery/ballast etc. - just to iron out the bugs in the models I make.  My real focus initially will be on building the stock.

 

But I am fed up with photographing my models against a piece of white card so maybe will start with a diorama (No 1/2 bay from Platform 3 appeals) 

 

Watch this space, it’s (hopefully) going to be an interesting ride...  Once again many thanks for comments, it's helped me understand better the way forward.

 

Best Regards

 

Mike

 

[CKPR]

Good to see more pre-grouping modelling set in Cumberland - there's at least two of us actively modelling pre-group M&CR on this forum - Phil (top gaffer of the CRA) aka SteamAle in 7mm and myself in 4mm. 

[Citadel]

As mentioned in the Kitbuilding & Scratchbuilding thread going to try and move the more prototype related questions over here.  For starters a Maryport & Carlisle question - well, maybe teak bodied panelling style in general.  

 

For a bit of variety started on a rake of M&C six wheelers - when it came to the bodies though started to get a bit confused as to how the panelling was layered up based on some drawings that  @SteamAle kindly shared: 

 

 

Looks like there is a bolection type moulding around the panels saying 'Third' which carries on vertically up to the roofline.  Also a similar horizontal bar above the windows.  Is that also a narrow bolection moulding around the fixed windows themselves?

 

Most importantly though what plane does the panel saying 'Third' sit in, also the panel above this between the windows?  Is it essentially in the same plane as the beading on the door (so effectively proud of the lower body panels)?

 

If so can see how I might get the etch to work - if not my peanut sized brain is a bit stumped(!)

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Citadel

[SteamAle]

[SteamAle]

Sorry, these are images of the last remaining M&CR coach. Taken at Chasewater Valley Railway. Copyright Ron Allison.

Last we heard coach was in need of major restoration, again, having stood outside for many years without regular attention.

Edited December 24, 2022 by SteamAle
added line

[Citadel]

Really useful, many thanks for the photos - it all now makes sense.  The window frames a bit of a surprise, a groove rather than a raised bolection.  LNWR livery might be relatively complex but the panel treatment a lot easier….  
 

Christmas project ahoy 🙂

Edited December 24, 2022 by Citadel

[SteamAle]

Happy to be of help. You mention the word 'etch' in one post. Are you intending to get brass etches made? If yes there may be either, help with funding to make them available to the few of us that model M&CR or, it could cover full cost of films and etches if that route may suit you better.

Perhaps discuss offline?

[Citadel]

That's the plan - the underframe is to the right of the test etch below.  I'm new to this but experience with the radial underframe I did recently is that the first attempt has a few unintended issues which only become apparent during the test build.  Just drawing up the body at the moment, if it works out happy to put them both on the same sheet and make it available to anyone who might be interested.  At this stage the money side is OK, it's more the help and advice that is priceless 🙂 

 

[CKPR]

These look excellent and to say I'm interested is a bit of an understatement - any thoughts of an M&CR 2-4-0  or 0-4-2 to head up a train of these coaches ? 

[Citadel]

 

Well, it's a long term dream but to be honest have a lot to learn.  Can cope with square boxes (so basically a carriage) but anything where one curve joins another is definitely beyond me at the moment.  Here's the current state of play on the M&C D11 Brake Third - bit of a fuzzy screen grab from the Mac:

 

 

The photos shared above really helped me get my head round the panelling.  There's an additional overlay for the areas with the holes below the fixed lights - needed the extra layer to get the raised bolection.  Above this still need raised beading up the sides of the panel and across the top of the fixed lights - etched a groove and was planning to insert 0.3mm brass wire to give the appropriate relief - bit of a faff but couldn't really work out another way:

 

 

Please point out anything that looks wrong - just a drawing on the Mac at this stage so easy to change.

[Citadel]

Trying to distract myself from lining the latest batch of LNWR carriages so turned to Illustrator and drew up another M&C carriage - D9 4 Compartment Composite

 

 

 

A question about the lower panel, when I look at the excellent Mike Peascod drawing kindly shared by @SteamAle can see the waistline panels have a bolection moulding around them (handled this in the same way as the D11 above) but then had a bit of a wobble about how to treat the lower panel....

 

 

On the photos of the Chasewater Valley carriage the lower below the waistline panel is inset (so instinctively half etched from the front in Illustrator - red on the drawing above).  That said on the drawing above there's no evidence of this and the lower panel appears flush with the raised mouldings above the waistline.  But then there's something funny goes on re: the door outlines....

 

Any advice appreciated - once I've got the etches back and done a test build more than happy to offer them to anyone else who is interested so may as well try to get this right.

 

Do love the arched tops to the windows/panelling - really adds character.  Now eyeing up the five compartment third.

 

[apl31]

I have always liked this design with the arched tops, but like you, I’ve have always puzzled over this drawing.

It does appear that the top bead layer and the bottom are a complete panel with the waist panels inset.  I always assumed the normal beading patterns were necessary to cover gaps of smaller individual panels. Did mid-Victorians have technology to laminate large panels?

 The wider angled gap around lower door coincides with where panel (tumblehome?) curves. If the bottom panel was thicker (eg stuck out further) would you need a bigger gap to open/close door?

Sorry not much help but I’m equally confused.

Aidan

[Edwardian]

4 hours ago, Citadel said:

Trying to distract myself from lining the latest batch of LNWR carriages so turned to Illustrator and drew up another M&C carriage - D9 4 Compartment Composite

 

 

 

A question about the lower panel, when I look at the excellent Mike Peascod drawing kindly shared by @SteamAle can see the waistline panels have a bolection moulding around them (handled this in the same way as the D11 above) but then had a bit of a wobble about how to treat the lower panel....

 

 

On the photos of the Chasewater Valley carriage the lower below the waistline panel is inset (so instinctively half etched from the front in Illustrator - red on the drawing above).  That said on the drawing above there's no evidence of this and the lower panel appears flush with the raised mouldings above the waistline.  But then there's something funny goes on re: the door outlines....

 

Any advice appreciated - once I've got the etches back and done a test build more than happy to offer them to anyone else who is interested so may as well try to get this right.

 

Do love the arched tops to the windows/panelling - really adds character.  Now eyeing up the five compartment third.

 

 

I like this style!

 

You want the waist panels to be flush with the moulding on the upper body and for the waist beading to stand proud of that. I think that is what your etch plan achieves. Perhaps you could simply maintain the depth of the upper body on the waist, stepping down to the lower sides. Then you just need to solder on the beading. Is there a technical reason why you could not do it this way?  

 

A picture paints a thousand words ....

 

 

 

 

The picture shows generally how it was done at the period. The rounded section, right-angled waist beading sits on the surface, the panel it contains is neither recessed nor proud of the surrounding coach side. This steps down below the beading to the lower coach sides.  

 

 

Now, looking at the picture you posted, it seems, as I would expect, that the LNWR examples follow the same practice. You can see where the side steps down, here closer to the beading than on the GER and LSWR examples I posted, which is probably why it doesn't show up on the drawing.

 

 

[Citadel]

19 hours ago, Edwardian said:

You want the waist panels to be flush with the moulding on the upper body and for the waist beading to stand proud of that. I think that is what your etch plan achieves. Perhaps you could simply maintain the depth of the upper body on the waist, stepping down to the lower sides. Then you just need to solder on the beading. Is there a technical reason why you could not do it this way?  

Many thanks for the detailed response, much appreciated.  Unless I hear differently then will stick with the plan above. The panels below the windows are effectively a half etched pocket to accept the rectangular overlays.  Hopefully will result in the centre of the panel being flush with the moulding above with a raised bolection around it.

 

To be honest was a bit wary about making the lower panel full thickness as my tumblehome forming abilities aren’t quite as fully developed as some and suspect I would have struggled to keep the half etched panels above flat (as effectively these would have been a lot weaker).
 

The 3D renders are superb, did toy with this idea but wouldn’t really know where to start.  Looking forward to seeing you models completed.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Citadel

[Citadel]

As mentioned over in the workbench thread it's about time I thought about starting the layout itself.  Conscious that there are already some great layouts featuring Carlisle station, in no way can I hope to aspire to their level and scale of modelling.  Objective here is a little different, seeking more a moving diorama taken from the perspective of someone inside the the station. Hopefully another element of differentiation is that this will be in glorious Victorian technicolour 🙂.  Letterbox slot type arrangement at the front of the scenic section using the insides of the roof and end screens as the scenic break.  Expect to have to raise the roof slightly and employ a little bit of forced perspective to allow access but to be honest the layout isn't particularly deep so fingers crossed - will build a rough mockup as a starting point.  

 

 

The back scene is the main station building and walls which are full roof height.  In the foreground will need to take a bit of artistic licence and omit some of the buildings on the island platform - both for access and scenic effect.  At the end of the day am after atmosphere more than absolute accuracy.  

 

The room I've lined out above the double garage is c. 8m x 4m and was hoping to build the layout along two of the walls - so essentially a scenic section between two fiddle yards.  Two key next steps:

 

o The length of the storage sidings will depend somewhat on the length of trains I run.  Need to do some research into the typical length of the mainline services during this period

o Need to get more detailed plans and elevation of the station as it was rebuilt in the 1880's - will try to follow up on this via the CRA.  Also will be interested in any timetables from the late Victorian period.

 

First though I need to fix the leaking shower cubicle to keep Mrs C on side!   

Edited December 3, 2023 by Citadel

[CKPR]

Looks good and I very much like the concept looking into a moving diorama. You mentioned forced perspective and one possibility might be to model the NER and G&SWR stock in 3.5mm/ HO. If you did this, you could keep the lines into their respective bays separate from the through lines and the M&CR bay and use PECO's new finescale OO track in it's 'correct' role as HO track.

Edited December 3, 2023 by CKPR

[Caley Jim]

This project might give you some inspiration.

 

Jim

[Citadel]

Had seen the York thread, it’s just an amazing project on so many levels.  There’s an almost sculptural quality to the way the roof has been rendered and the use of forced perspective is so effective.  That coupled with the technical side re: the etching and the CNC routed plywood, and haven’t even mentioned the trains themselves.  Oh, and all in 2mm finescale.

 

Certainly inspirational.  But need to manage expectations against my own ability as for sure I would fall short 🙀

[SteamAle]

Mike should wake up to an inbox with a few interesting files. I'll leave it to him to decide which he wants to post after he has had a chance to digest everything!

Philip

[Citadel]

8 hours ago, SteamAle said:

Mike should wake up to an inbox with a few interesting files.

 

Well, Christmas has come early this year 🙂

 

Amongst the cornucopia of goodies the station plan after the reconstruction in the 1880's.  Need to double check my dimensions re: the track plan above but feels fairly consistent: 

 

 

And the Station departures in November 1886:

 

 

Had better get stuck in!

Edited December 4, 2023 by Citadel

[Citadel]

17 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

This project might give you some inspiration.

 

Jim

Just to ensure credit where credit is due here’s what gave me the idea originally.  The link in the initial post on this thread has lost its photos but think they can be accessed here

 

https://paternosterrow.blogspot.com/2021/09/a-duchess-at-carlisle.html

 

The picture of the Cravens DMU is exactly the sort of atmosphere I was hoping to capture (though if I do it half as well will be more than happy).

Edited December 4, 2023 by Citadel