Carlisle Citadel in Late Victorian Times

[drduncan]

Have you considered the currently experimental templot plug track? See @hayfield ‘s track building thread. It looks extremely promising and should remove almost all the dark arts associated with point construction. 
Duncan

[26power]

On 15/12/2023 at 12:59, Citadel said:

Quick question, what thickness of cork sheet is recommended and any guidance about glues to use etc.  have read somewhere that PVA soaks into the voids and reduces the sound deadening properties once it dries.

 

A very long time ago I seem to recall using cork tile adhesive to stick cork to baseboards.  Memory says it was a sort of rubbery adhesive.  If so that perhaps helps with sound deadening?

 

 I see that such adhesives are still available.

[Citadel]

Many thanks for all the advice, definitely a great help and now a lot clearer in this respect - 3mm cork underlay under the Xmas tree with the EM Gauge Society flexi track and points.  First though need some baseboards so this has been the post Christmas project.

 

Bit fortunate in this respect as have a good workshop and range of woodworking tools - hopefully this bit within my comfort zone (don't worry, there are many things to come where this definitely doesn't apply...).  Used 6mm Malaysian ply (couldn't get birch play for love nor money in my local area and the prices from elsewhere were eye watering) - the material I sourced is good quality but do sense a bit softer and prone to damage.  Am assuming once I finish the baseboards I'll apply a coat of matt varnish or similar to protect them from moisture and harden them up a bit - do wonder though given this whether 9mm might have been a better bet though.  Here's progress to date, photo a bit wonky as took with my iPhone on the wide angle setting.

 

 

Definitely subscribe to the advice elsewhere that a layout and running quality of the track is only as good as the flatness of the baseboard so taking my time on this bit and enjoying the ride.  Doubled up the ends to 12mm and will be using EM Gauge Society dowels to locate the boards.  At the sides using two 6mm skins and softwood battens at the top/bottom to take the screws:

 

 

Here's the finished article 🙂

 

 

Now the bits outside my comfort zone.  Electrics a complete black art to me and would like to keep things as simple as possible.  Really not sure DCC is my thing (and to be honest would rather spend the money on more locomotives / coaches) so was thinking about more traditional methods of control - am I being a complete luddite here?   

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Citadel

[SteamAle]

Stick with analoge control (DC). You can always upgade to DCC when you win the lottery, unless some people still do the pools, if they exist?

[Michael Edge]

If you wire it with DC and section switches you can easily change to DCC later by simply turning all the sections on.

[richard i]

It depends. 
like advice so far I would suggest dc. Then convert later if you want like Mike suggests.

 

my only question is do you want sound? If not you can do everything dcc can do on dc and save the price of chips. 
perhaps someone could do you a wiring diagram which you follow. It gets round electric Luddite mode. Even I could follow wire from dropper 2 to pin 6, ticking off as I went. 
richard 

[Citadel]

13 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

If you wire it with DC and section switches you can easily change to DCC later by simply turning all the sections on.

 

Aah, good point.  I'll press ahead then with the DC option

 

1 hour ago, richard i said:

my only question is do you want sound? If not you can do everything dcc can do on dc and save the price of chips. 
perhaps someone could do you a wiring diagram which you follow. It gets round electric Luddite mode. Even I could follow wire from dropper 2 to pin 6, ticking off as I went. 
richard 

 

Had thought about providing some form of soundscape as think it will be important for atmosphere (after all you are supposed to be viewing the layout as if you were stood within the roofed area).  More than just the trains, the general hubbub of a busy station.  Was really taken by the vintage train sound synthesiser route as per the recent post on @CKPR's thread, sounds like fun.

 

OK, back to general electrical ignorance.  Can see you need to split the layout into sections so you can isolate certain areas to avoid everything wanting to start to move at the same time.  Had sketched up the attached diagram to get my head round things, was basically assuming two controllers (the pink and green highlighting) with section 12 capable of being powered by both.  Does this make sense or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

 

 

What happens off the edge of the paper still crystallising in my mind.  These areas will not be scenic / ballasted etc so still a degree of flexibility (there is also room for fiddle yards but the elephant in the room is that some of the trains will be long so need a fair bit of space if I go down this route).  Maybe it will end up as a roundy roundy with a set of storage sidings on the other side of the room. 

[Michael Edge]

Basic DC wiring for two controllers:

One rail everywhere (inside one or outside one) should be common.

Section switches connect parts of the other rail to one or other of the controllers, easiest and clearest way to do this is with two way/centre off switches.

Mount these sideways on your panel so left goes to one controller, right to the other and centre is off.

Get away from the train set idea of a separate controller for each track.

Very different layout but same principle, this is Wentworth Junction's panel.

Ignore the 5 switches at the ends, possibly not relevant to you but I'll explain if required. These are link switches to the rest of the layout.

Each different colour on the panel is a section, switchable to either of the controllers, left or right, as required with two way centre off toggle switches.

The dotted sections are within the main sections and controlled with an on/off switch mounted vertically - this is for operational reasons on this layout, you may not need it but these switches do not connect to the controllers, just to the main section itself.

The black push buttons are for uncoupling magnets and the black coloured sections are switched automatically by the point setting (you won't need this).

Possibly not relevant to what you are doing but the panel is laid out as a signal box diagram with the normal point setting show as continuous lines, the switches along the bottom mimic the levers in the box and reverse points (identified by numbers) as required - I use Tortoise point motors.

Hope this helps, it really isn't difficult.

 

[Pannier Tank]

29 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Very different layout but same principle, this is Wentworth Junction's panel.

 

A beautiful panel; I'd be interested in it's construction and the software used. Is it it printed card with a polycarbonate cover?

[Michael Edge]

It's printed on photo paper and under acrylic sheet (perspex). As for software, it's drawn in Turbocad which is what I use for all drawings.

[Pannier Tank]

19 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

It's printed on photo paper and under acrylic sheet (perspex). As for software, it's drawn in Turbocad which is what I use for all drawings.

 

Thank you for the information Michael, much appreciated; certainly makes a very nice Panel.

[Michael Hodgson]

22 hours ago, Citadel said:

 

 (after all you are supposed to be viewing the layout as if you were stood within the roofed area).  More than just the trains, the general hubbub of a busy station.  Was really taken by the vintage train sound synthesiser route as per the recent post on @CKPR's thread, sounds like fun.

 

 

Hmm..   Not too sure about that.  In that case you would see only the underside of the station roof, and would be looking up at it.  Don't model it but project an image of the inside of the real thing onto the ceiling?  And the Tannoy would be above you too.

 

Last time I was in Carlisle it was raining fairly hard (no surprise there I suppose) and the sound I remember most wasn't the steam special but the buzzing from the OHLE!

 

23 hours ago, Citadel said:

OK, back to general electrical ignorance.  Can see you need to split the layout into sections so you can isolate certain areas to avoid everything wanting to start to move at the same time.  Had sketched up the attached diagram to get my head round things, was basically assuming two controllers (the pink and green highlighting) with section 12 capable of being powered by both.  Does this make sense or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

 

 

What happens off the edge of the paper still crystallising in my mind.  These areas will not be scenic / ballasted etc so still a degree of flexibility (there is also room for fiddle yards but the elephant in the room is that some of the trains will be long so need a fair bit of space if I go down this route).  Maybe it will end up as a roundy roundy with a set of storage sidings on the other side of the room. 

 

If I was doing that DCC I would cut similar section breaks too, as I would want to install occupancy detection modules to make it possible to automate some movements.

 

Yes, a through fiddle yard on the opposite side of the room on a roundy-roundy is going to be far easier to operate than two dead-end fiddle yards.  These would need an operator each, and every train would need to be run round (and the loco turned) before it could return to the scenic area.  However if that's the way you want to go, loco cassettes rather than turntables is probably easier.

[Citadel]

On 31/12/2023 at 13:47, Michael Edge said:

Ignore the 5 switches at the ends, possibly not relevant to you but I'll explain if required. These are link switches to the rest of the layout.

Each different colour on the panel is a section, switchable to either of the controllers, left or right, as required with two way centre off toggle switches.

The dotted sections are within the main sections and controlled with an on/off switch mounted vertically - this is for operational reasons on this layout, you may not need it but these switches do not connect to the controllers, just to the main section itself.

The black push buttons are for uncoupling magnets and the black coloured sections are switched automatically by the point setting (you won't need this).

Possibly not relevant to what you are doing but the panel is laid out as a signal box diagram with the normal point setting show as continuous lines, the switches along the bottom mimic the levers in the box and reverse points (identified by numbers) as required - I use Tortoise point motors.

Hope this helps, it really isn't difficult.

 

 

What can I say, many thanks for all the help and advice.  As I've said a couple of times in the past on this thread imitation is the sincerest form of flattery - will just do exactly what you have done 🙂

 

Am interested in the function of the switches at the ends, assume accommodates transfer of control from another panel - something I'll need to consider at some stage in the future when I get onto the storage roads / fiddle yard arrangement.  Also do you have any recommendations re: electromagnets for uncoupling?

 

Had been ducking the question of point motors (originally I had just planned to use wire in tube) but make I should just bite the bullet and go for electronic control.  Was just tossing up between Tortoise and DCC Concepts Cobalt IP Analog.  Maybe swaying towards the latter simply due to the fact that they now appear to be cheaper (and also like the smaller size / ease of connection).  Have read a couple of threads suggesting that there isn't much between them really, if anyone out there has strong feelings please shout.  Do need to get these decisions made before I can finalise the location of the cross members and cut the appropriate holes etc.

 

 In the meantime baseboard frenzy continues.  Probably overdoing things a little woodwork wise but do find this quite rewarding - just want to enjoy the journey and do each stage to the absolute best of my ability:

 

 

 

Legs next, need to establish the ideal height for viewing.  Suspect in time it will need to be a little higher than a 'standard' layout but at the moment I may just make something temporary to accommodate track laying, wiring etc.  Feel the roof may be a longer term project.

[Michael Edge]

OK, on to link witches, panel photo repeated.

At each end of the lines leaving this panel there is an on/off switch, mounted vertically, these are the link switches - 5 on this panel. Each one connects the inside rail (outside is common everywhere) of a linking section to the coloured section on the panel (the ones with the two way centre off switches). They don't connect to any of the controllers, just to the sections. The next panel along (in this case all 5 are on the fiddle yard panel) has the same switches to connect its last sections to the link section. If the link on your panel is on you can drive on to the link section, if the next panel's link switch is on you can continue to drive on to that part of the layout.

This system also gives the ability to switch out a panel completely and allow through running from another one, for example the up line at WJ (green section running left to right). If the main section switch is off as seen here, switching the links on at each end allows the fiddle yard to drive right through without affecting anything else going on here. It also applies to the down line here since there are only two main sections in it - if there were more through running can be done by connecting all the sections ot one of the Junction controllers and leaving its direction switch in the off position. Alternatively an additional "link through" switch can be fitted to connect all these sections if required, we do this with one of the main lines on Herculaneum Dock.

Operating procedure on the down lne (up the hill!) is that the train draws up to the starter signal at the right, train engine switched off with the on/off on the dotted part and a banker is attached at the rear. Then the operator switches the main red section to off, the dotted one to on and the link switch on at which point the fiddle yard operator can take over by switching his link on to drive all the way in.

The system is completely flexible and allows any controller to control any part of the layout by various combinations of switching - on my older layout (Cwmafon) any one of seven control positions can access any of the layout.

We've been using this system on Leeds club layouts for more than 50 years giving rise to the frequently heard "turn your ******* link off" followed by every operator surreptitiously checkin his own panel....

Hope this is clear enough and helpful.

To answer your other queries, for uncoupling we used cheap coils from Whistons (remember them?) with a chunk of large nail through them for many years but this supply has long since dried up. More recently I've been cannibalising old H&M point motors to use the coils for uncoupling magnets.

I haven't used the Cobalt point motors but they work in exactly the same way as Tortoises, their only drawback is that are just about impossible to drive backwards - the Tortoise is quite easy to work by hand for testing or in case of power failures. If you are fitting Tortoises all they need is a hole about 9mm or so under the tiebar, when you lay the track glue a strip of paper at either side of the hole to leave a narrow slot for the wire to move in - don't bother trying to cut slots for the operating wires.

The layout in France is about 5ft off the floor (not my choice!) which makes working on it a bit difficult but does make wiring underneath very easy - and I have to do it from underneath because it's all fixed. I think I might suggest somewhere in between this and normal layout height - say about 4ft.

[melmerby]

On 31/12/2023 at 11:19, richard i said:

my only question is do you want sound? If not you can do everything dcc can do on dc and save the price of chips. 

No you can't, try running two trains into the same block or setting back a loco to double head.

[Hesperus]

If you are careful with where the section break is I can't see a problem with setting back a loco to double head (so long as they are well matched when both sections are switched on and they set off).

 

Two trains running in the same section would be tricky on DC but isn't generally done on the real thing.

[Citadel]

On 03/01/2024 at 17:12, melmerby said:

No you can't, try running two trains into the same block or setting back a loco to double head.

 

Thanks for the comment, I do maybe need to revisit where I place additional section breaks to facilitate this as double heading will definitely be on the agenda.  

 

Major milestone today, initial baseboards for the station area completed - the room will never be as tidy again 🙂

 

 

Edited January 8 by Citadel

[Citadel]

Have been working away with not that much to show for it.  Certainly seem to be spending an inordinate amount of time cutting curves in plywood but must say sticking the cork down was highly satisfying:

 

 

The plywood platforms are not the final width, will top with 2mm mount board or similar and draw lines with a compass to get the correct clearance.  Built 'The Beast' to help here - it's really just a planed piece of wood with the correct dimensions and bogie centres for a 65' 6" dining car.  One day - you can but dream...

 

The track beds are at three different levels to help with the perspective / access once the roof is installed - they are horizontal but added a bit of slope to the platforms themselves to cheat the eye.  Basically the back of the layout is c. 2 cm higher than the front.

 

 

Adding the extra layers does give everything a nice satisfying stiffness - beginning to suspect the a single sheet of 6mm ply made wasn't enough on it's own (remember I wasn't able to source pukka birch ply).

 

Hopefully get the basic levels sorted and will then get stuck into the track work / wiring - what could possibly go wrong(!)

Edited January 30 by Citadel

[Portchullin Tatty]

Regarding the beast, be mindful that the problem with platforms will be the footboards not the actual body itself.

 

So you might want to put the footboards onto it?  Whilst you are doing that you might was well line it too?

[Citadel]

1 hour ago, Portchullin Tatty said:

Regarding the beast, be mindful that the problem with platforms will be the footboards not the actual body itself.

 

So you might want to put the footboards onto it?  Whilst you are doing that you might was well line it too?

Fair point re: the footboards.  When I looked at the drawing in LNWR Carriages by David Jenkinson it looked as though the footboards did not protrude beyond the overall body dimension so went with that.

 

Suspect these carriages were already at the limit re: platform clearances etc. so this had to be borne in mind during the design process.

[Portchullin Tatty]

I had guessed what the beast was intended to be by its overall dimension!

 

Something like this....................

 

 

An M&L etched kit built thus far by my father and now passed to me to finish at some point.

 

The challenge is the roof which has been built up with plasticard.  Solvent has clearly been trapped in this and is "bubbling up."  I need to find a solution to this at some point (the London Road roof for the picnic saloon is a different profile!).

 

As a beware, you will be as much interested in WCJS coaches as LNWR.  Many of the former are 6 inches wider although I would need to check if this is over the body only or also the underframe and hence potentially the footsteps.

[Michael Edge]

You will find the end footboards come quite close to the platforms on curves, there is quite a big throwover here - also obviously in the centre of the underframe truss, the coach body should all be above platform level anyway. Our model of Carlisle has the platforms built at correct width/spacing from the tracks (most modellers leave a big gap) and as a consequence we've had to make sure all stock really is in gauge - a great many models aren't.

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, Portchullin Tatty said:

I had guessed what the beast was intended to be by its overall dimension!

 

Something like this....................

 

 

An M&L etched kit built thus far by my father and now passed to me to finish at some point.

 

The challenge is the roof which has been built up with plasticard.  Solvent has clearly been trapped in this and is "bubbling up."  I need to find a solution to this at some point (the London Road roof for the picnic saloon is a different profile!).

 

As a beware, you will be as much interested in WCJS coaches as LNWR.  Many of the former are 6 inches wider although I would need to check if this is over the body only or also the underframe and hence potentially the footsteps.

 Hi Mark,

 

interesting, I was not aware that M&L did a kit for a WCJS dining saloon. I built a D10 by modifying a Modellers World D9 kit, by removing a couple of the lower vertical beading strips and with Bill Bedford narrow vestibule ends. The MW kit came with a profiled wood roof section, actually the correct width for the 8' 6" wide D10 but too narrow for the 9' D9.

 

 

Barrie Stevenson did an article on making a new roof by splitting and widening an elliptical roof aluminium extrusion, making a new clerestory top from the side etches and curved brass IIRC. I can't remember where it appeared (not RM, MRJ or BRM) as it was quite some years ago. I think a lot of epoxy car filler got used. He later produced a cast resin roof for the D9. The one I bought curled up and developed several cracks so got binned.

 

Jol

[Portchullin Tatty]

On 30/01/2024 at 19:41, Jol Wilkinson said:

interesting, I was not aware that M&L did a kit for a WCJS dining saloon.

 

Barrie Stevenson did an article on making a new roof by splitting and widening an elliptical roof aluminium extrusion, making a new clerestory top from the side etches and curved brass IIRC.

 

Hi Jol,

 

In truth, I merely thought it was M&L as it is a nearly finished kit in a blank box with a set of bogie sides.

 

I would be interested in seeing the article you refer to if you recall where it was.

 

Do like your completed diner; they are beasts.  Looking forward to seeing Citadels version.............

[Jol Wilkinson]

On 01/02/2024 at 10:03, Portchullin Tatty said:

 

Hi Jol,

 

In truth, I merely thought it was M&L as it is a nearly finished kit in a blank box with a set of bogie sides.

 

I would be interested in seeing the article you refer to if you recall where it was.

 

Do like your completed diner; they are beasts.  Looking forward to seeing Citadels version.............

Hello Mark,

 

I've done a search through my own collection of magazines and cut-out articles, plus a search through any online index I can find but without success. Not in Modellers Backtrack, Morill, Model Railway Backtrack, MRJ. I bought my  kits in the 1980s so I expect the article would have appeared later than that but can't recall where. I tended only to buy those magazines "outside the mainstream" so not RM or BRM. Sorry I can't be of more help. 

 

The origin of your kit is intriguing. I was only aware of the Modellers World kit for a LNWR 65' 6" Dining Car. This was for the 9' wide W9 0f which 12 were built in 1905. These had the later wide vestibule. They were very similar to the fifteen 1897 W10 8'6" wide narrow vestibule versions. Both had centre kitchen and pantries. 

 

The carriage sides on your model look the same but the clerestory sides are different. According to the photo in Jenkinson's book the clerestory sides aren't correct on my W10, the glass lights over the kitchen section are missing. Yours has got them although the spacing looks wrong and there should be fifteen as far as I can tell from the photo of the W10.

 

The etched bogie side look different as far a I can remember. I'll have to dig out the other W9 kit I bought during the pandemic to have a look. I also got a 65' 6" W63 Brake Third kit last year. This is another Modellers World kit. I believe the owner of MW in Coventry was intending to bring out a full set for the later 1909 sets. I bought it when the rare opportunity arose, but it is too late for my period so will probably become a bargaining tool!

 

That two such very similar kits might be produced is not surprising as there were a group of  LNWR modellers in the West Midland at the time who were closely involved, also including Ralph Jackson, Brian Badger, Dave Gillot and possibly Pete Waterman as well as the owners of  M&L and Modellers World. The kits now marketed under the Barrie Stevenson Label were originally produced by Brian Badger. Sadly Barrie S did nothing to improve the kits when he owned the range, such as supplying etched ends instead of cast w/m ones (which are poor castings in the one BS kit I bought).

 

Jol

 

 

Edited February 2 by Jol Wilkinson
Amended text