Carlisle Citadel in Late Victorian Times

[Michael Hodgson]

Whether or not you can unstick track is very dependent on your choice of glue.  A lot of second hand track recovered from layouts is just so much scrap.

[Michael Edge]

I can move unballasted track stuck down with No More Nails fairly easily by sliding a thin knife blade under it but the track is never ballasted before it is wired and thoroughly tested. Sequence is, track laid and tested by pushing stock along (preferably when the room is as warm as possible), wiring and proper testing with locos and trains, painting, finally ballasting.

 

[TJ52]

I might be a bit stupid here, but I've always pinned track before ballasting. No problem if you want to take it up.

 

Terry

[CKPR]

You're quite right that lifting track can be tricky, especially if the glue is too strong, Resin W being Exhibit A in this regard. I've just relaid the carriage siding at Mealsgate using clear PVA from The Works, which is strong enough and a palette knife will easily remove the track and ' bonded ballast' if need be. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by CKPR

[Citadel]

@TJ52, given my complete lack of knowledge on the subject there are no stupid questions 🙂 - have completely open mind and just want to ensure that I tap the vast experience on this forum.  Have to admit my initial assumption was that you simply nailed the track to the baseboard then I started to read about cork.... Am assuming the logic is that if you drive something solid through the cork it will transmit the sound and negate the benefits of the underlay - think I'm now pretty sold on glueing the track to cork based on the various comments from others.  It's just down to picking the right glue and the posts above have given me some good ideas to try.  Am building my baseboards from cross-braced 6mm ply - very flat/rigid but conscious they look a little bit like the soundbox of a large percussion instrument.... 

 

In other news when looking for photos showing the advertising on the East wall came across this postcard which I hadn't seen before.  The headline on the Menzies stand says 'Russian Disaster', kind of assuming this dates it to the Russo-Japanese war around 1904/5 (or maybe could be WW1).  What's really interesting is that it's almost as if the adverts on the upper story of the station buildings are painted directly onto the stone itself (or perhaps large wooden boards as there may be border round them).  Has anyone else seen this photo and is there a better resolution copy?  For sure though there are a lot of adverts and can see how this will add character to the layout.  Maybe I'll look at other large railway stations in the same era to get further ideas.

 

 

The EMGS flexitrack and points arrived last night - would like to say that I've had a good look at them but unfortunately they were intercepted by Mrs C. who, before I could open the parcel, announced that they were being confiscated and that I could collect them from under the tree on Christmas Day(!). I have been turning my mind to the track work though - in the original plan there are scissor crossings at the centre point of the station (and also further crossovers to the central tracks under the south footbridge)

Assume these relate to the changing of engines, can see operationally (and visually) this is a major feature of a Carlisle based layout.  The Midland Scotch Express from Page 1 is parked at this point.  When on the tour last weekend the guide explained that the platform above the clock was used for signalling within the station and co-ordination of movements like this (is this correct?)

 

 

There was a great article in the CRA magazine that reprinted 'The Eve of St. Grouse at Carlisle Citadel and Northwards' from the 1912 issue of 'The Railway & Travel Monthly'.  Can't resist quoting some of it here:

 

'Presently a hoot is heard, and out of the shadowy gloom surrounding the North end of the station a light is seen approaching.  Slowly it glides out of the shadows.  It is the tender of a giant locomotive.  Behind it - slowly - the engine can be seen, and then, little by little, one by one, their existence only guessed at till each in turn becomes visible, a whole string of locomotives, steam roaring from their safety valves, comes to rest on an outside line next to the platform road.  Their respective firemen climb down from the cabs and uncouple their engines - five enormous dark-blue giants, waiting to hurtle northward with the first instalment of the down 'West Coat Route' expresses.

 

Another hoot - this time more approximating to a deep musical note - and two huge brown machines glide out of the shadows, run past the Caledonian Railway engines by the platform line, cross on to the outside line near the middle of the station, and in their turn stop, their air brakes going 'throb-throb, throb-throb', as they accumulate the compressed air for working the Westinghouse brake.  They are North British Railway locomotives waiting for the Midland Railway's first down Scotchman - ready to haul her two portions across the hills and ravines of the border, to Edinburgh.

 

A dull rumbling, intermingled with a grind of brakes, sparks flying from locked wheels - a giant locomotive, its work accomplished, stained with the cinders and dust of its long run from Leeds - slides slowly up the platform, dragging behind it a train of crimson carriages, brightly lit in their corridors, blinds down and lights covered in the compartments,  From the darkened sleeping cars the green-uniformed attendants descend onto the platform, and from the carriages a few passengers - men in the main - in varying states of deshabille, alight to stretch their legs. A shrill whistle, contrasting strongly with the deep bass of the Northern machines, and the Midland Railway's crimson giant glides away from the train.  A signal goes to danger with a 'thud', there is a click of moving points, another signal drops, and the brown machine slowly glides down into the vacated place.  It's coupled on , a green light flashed from the rear and the train glides slowly northward again.

 

There is a pause of a few minutes duration only, and this time a huge black locomotive, drawing after it a long line of (sic) chocolate and white coaches, enters the station.  Two of the blue giants replace the black London & North Western Railway engine and the first portion of the 7-45pm from Euston, its destination boards all bearing the legend 'Inverness', resumes its rush to the capital of the Highlands.

 

During a momentary lull a huge olive-green machine clanks through the station, sets onto an outside road and stops.  She is waiting for the 3:10 am to Stranraer, the Irish boat express - this great Glasgow & South Western engine - waiting to thread her way through the morning mists, through the dawn breaking drear over the aching wastes of Galloway, till the blue waters of Loch Ryan bring her journey to an end'

 

Gosh!

 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Citadel

[Dave John]

Going back a few pictures I note the wheeled  stepladders. Perhaps rarely photographed or modelled  but thinking about it all stations must have had a similar solution for maintaining and lighting all those gas lamps. 

 

A fiddly but fun scratchbuild over christmas for Kelvinbank I think. 

[melmerby]

In many of the pictures the so called "smoke troughs" are very prominant but is that what they were?

They dont seem to vent to anywhere like those in an engine shed and go up and down around obstacles such as the footbridge.

They are also not very deep.

Are they more likely there to catch the blast?

[Citadel]

I was studiously ignoring them.  A very prominent feature but think a step too far in terms of modelling / access etc.

 

i’b assumed they were just to deflect the blast from the locomotives.  As you say don’t think they provided any additional ventilation

[Curlew]

Swapping of locomotives on through trains is possibly fairly logical to work out as with the exception of the NBR, all companies lines ended at Carlisle. A bigger challenge to work out might be the degree of remarshalling of the coaching stock. It was supposed to be a common feature in the good old days, with through coaches from anywhere to everywhere else. How you would even begin to work out what exactly happened at a busy and complicated junction like Carlisle boggles the mind somewhat. Presumably there are carriage diagrams for the period, but with 7 railway companies and a joint line to consider, you could spend a lifetime just working it all out.

[Michael Edge]

Yes, I would say they were blast deflectors rather than smoke troughs. With regard to the multiplicity of crossovers in the platform roads, as you point out almost all trains changed locos here right through to the end of steam but the additional complication was that there were (and still are) only three through platforms. For this reason all three were split into two with signals in the middle and they still are on our model. I have no knowledge of exactly how it worked in your period but in the 50s and 60s the middle roads were mostly used for stock storage and loco movements - we have all these crossovers on our model but in practice the single ones never get used and the scissors only rarely, on the other hand we have only just started to install couplings which will allow engine changing.

Back to the cork, your baseboards are very thin, ours are all 9mm or 12mm plywood, so may well be a bit noisy. Ballasting our track hasn't made any appreciable difference to the noise level, nor did it on my own layout at home, but I have never nailed track down - always glued it, earlier with Evostik and now with No More Nails.

[Citadel]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

on the other hand we have only just started to install couplings which will allow engine changing.

This s a topic that I need to get my head round as the bays at the back of the layout (in particular) won’t really be accessible by the ‘hand of god’.  I haven’t fixed couplings to any of the stock I’ve built to date (a moot point until a couple of days ago as didn’t actually own any track). Was planning to run the carriages in the main as fixed rakes but are there any recommendations re: auto-uncouplers for the loco / train interface?

[Edwardian]

For me part of the allure of Carlisle is the physical appearance of the station, and the other, which one can only appreciate in the pre-Grouping age, are the sheer number of companies using the station.

 

On the ECML I suspect we split this between Newcastle, to which I expect the Scottish companies ran, and York, which saw the overlap of the two English ECML companies in terms of motive power, but also saw other English companies, perhaps most unexpectedly, the GER!

 

This I suspect is a function of the fact that the border is much further south on the west!

 

 

[Dunalastair]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

For me part of the allure of Carlisle is the physical appearance of the station, and the other, which one can only appreciate in the pre-Grouping age, are the sheer number of companies using the station.

 

On the ECML I suspect we split this between Newcastle, to which I expect the Scottish companies ran, and York, which saw the overlap of the two English ECML companies in terms of motive power, but also saw other English companies, perhaps most unexpectedly, the GER!

 

This I suspect is a function of the fact that the border is much further south on the west!

 

 

 

Though for many years, ECML trains were hauled by the NER through to Waverley - the NBR gave away operation of its main line to gain powers to run the less profitable single lines into England.

[Edwardian]

20 minutes ago, Dunalastair said:

 

Though for many years, ECML trains were hauled by the NER through to Waverley - the NBR gave away operation of its main line to gain powers to run the less profitable single lines into England.

 

Yes, I think I knew that, but had forgotten, so thanks. I think Hoole mentioned it in his tome on ECJS

[WFPettigrew]

11 hours ago, Citadel said:

There was a great article in the CRA magazine that reprinted 'The Eve of St. Grouse at Carlisle Citadel and Northwards' from the 1912 issue of 'The Railway & Travel Monthly'.

 

Isn't that just fantastic?!  If you can capture even just a small bit of this magic Mike, it's going to be stunning...

 

Though I had a wry smile about the twice mention of the:

 

11 hours ago, Citadel said:

Midland Railway's crimson giant

 

Is this finally the proof that @Compound2632, @Dave Hunt have been seeking regarding the alleged MR "small engine policy" ?!

 

 

 

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

With regard to the multiplicity of crossovers in the platform roads, as you point out almost all trains changed locos here right through to the end of steam but the additional complication was that there were (and still are) only three through platforms.

Birmingham Snow Hill was similar, only 4 through platforms and the two main ones had scissors midway, this was to use each as two platforms and were signalled and numbered for such use.

There was little in the way of loco changing.

[Dunalastair]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Birmingham Snow Hill was similar, only 4 through platforms and the two main ones had scissors midway, this was to use each as two platforms and were signalled and numbered for such use.

There was little in the way of loco changing.

 

As did Edinburgh Waverley, which before recent changes had a pair of double-length platforms flanking the central island - otherwise only the sub platforms offered through options.

 

 

Was it such an unusual arrangement? Central islands seemed to be a popular way to rebuild major through stations in the C19. And that is before thinking of single sided stations like Cambridge was until recently.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Dunalastair

[Michael Hodgson]

Rugby Midland station originally had crossovers in the middle of the two main platforms.  This was a very wide island platform accessed by subway, and there were bay platforms for local services at both ends of the island, in between the main Up and Down through platforms.  There was a separate signal box on each side controlling this middle crossovers and associated signals.

[Curlew]

Nottingham Midland and Chester were similarly equipped with mid-platform crossovers. I suspect it had something to do with remarshalling trains?

[Michael Hodgson]

6 minutes ago, Curlew said:

Nottingham Midland and Chester were similarly equipped with mid-platform crossovers. I suspect it had something to do with remarshalling trains?

Not necessarily.  The crossovers allow the rear train to leave before the first, or a following train to enter the platform whilst the rear half of the platform is still occupied for whatever reason. 

 

It can be convenient for providing connections between longer distance through trains- not as convenient as cross-platform, but still allowing passengers to transfer from either train to the other without having to use footbridges etc.  It's different from branch connections - where typically a branch train came into a bay platform as a feeder before a long-distance through train and left afterwards with the arriving passengers

[Citadel]

49 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The crossovers allow the rear train to leave before the first, or a following train to enter the platform whilst the rear half of the platform is still occupied for whatever reason. 

Aargh, so many scissor crossings….  The issue from my side is that I’ve never built track (and suspect that if I did it would be the weakest link re: smooth running). Also the expense and added complication (not to mention the time and learning curve involved as well).

 

Confession time, was hoping to just get away with two simple crossings as per the drawing below (same in the bay platforms but here haven’t changed the drawing yet).

 

Can still change engines from the centre lanes and leapfrog a slower train parked elsewhere on the platform.  Lose some flexibility but wonder whether this is a time to be a bit pragmatic in the interest of maintaining momentum

 

Remember the track itself isn’t really that visible from the viewing angle. 
 

Interestingly the modern Carlisle has no crossings at all in the platform area.

 

Welcome comments, am I being a bit short sighted here or is pragmatism a virtue given all the other challenges I face….

Edited December 18, 2023 by Citadel

[ChrisN]

7 minutes ago, Citadel said:

Aargh, so many scissor crossings….  The issue from my side is that I’ve never built track (and suspect that if I did it would be the weakest link re: smooth running). Also the expense and added complication (not to mention the time and learning curve involved as well).

 

Confession time, was hoping to just get away with two simple crossings as per the drawing below (same in the bay platforms but here haven’t changed the drawing yet).

 

Can still change engines from the centre lanes and leapfrog a slower train parked elsewhere on the platform.  Lose some flexibility but wonder whether this is a time to be a bit pragmatic in the interest of maintaining momentum

 

Remember the track itself isn’t really that visible from the viewing angle. 
 

Interestingly the modern Carlisle has no crossings at all in the platform area.

 

Welcome comments, am I being a bit short sighted here or is pragmatism a virtue given all the other challenges I face….

 

 

I would think that the crossovers would be just that between the lines.

 

It would seem sensible to keep the momentum, what you do not want to do is get bogged down with something, then lose interest and give the whole thing up.

[Michael Edge]

You could certainly get away with the scissors crossovers non working, as I said we hardly ever use them. We are using modified DG couplings with a normal coupling on the end coach but without the delay latch. The locos have just a hook coupling with no loop, this is the etch I have done for this, it still has a normal drawhook incorporated in it.

This one is for use on my layout so it does have a delay latch but the Carlisle ones don't. They are uncoupled on a permanent magnet at each engine change point and the ends of the bay platforms, we don't need the delay latches or loops on the locos since no actual shunting is done. Everywhere else we use screw and three link couplings with Kadees for stock which should have buckeye couplers - BR and LNER carriage stock.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Citadel said:

Can still change engines from the centre lanes and leapfrog a slower train parked elsewhere on the platform.  Lose some flexibility but wonder whether this is a time to be a bit pragmatic in the interest of maintaining momentum

 

I think just having the cross-overs (without the scissors) is a fair compromise - you can demonstrate the principle of the two-train platform, and create the wonderful sense of busyness described in the text you quoted, without getting bogged down in hand-made track. Given discussions about track removal - perhaps plan for a future upgrade if the fancy takes you? Make that section of track a removable module?

 

Nick.

[Caley Jim]

Perth was another location where not only loco changing went on, CR or NBR to HR and vice-versa, but much remarshalling also took place.  On 7th August 1888 the 07:00 ex Perth comprised 37 vehicles from 9 railway companies, 4 LB&SCR; 8 LNWR; 1 NER; 5 MR; 4 NBR; 1 ECJS; 1 GNR; 2 WCJS; 11 HR, including 12 horse boxes, 2 carriage trucks, 6 luggage vans, 1 ECJS sleeping car, 1 HR PO van & brake van. 

 

Jim