Did Par Harbour have a Ro-Ro railway ferry?

[KeithMacdonald]

One from Andy Kirkham on Flickr

 

Quote

MAY 74 03. A Class 08 with Italian ferry vans on Par harbour branch, April 19 1974

 

Well, OK, they are Italian ferry vans, and they're at Par Harbour. But did they get there on a ferry, and if so, where?

 

 

[Re6/6]

No ferry to my knowledge but that's for other more knowledgeable folks! Possibly they were loaded with bagged china clay although they seem to be marked with what looks like 'Agricultural Produce'?

 

Italian vans did appear in odd places in the 60's and 70's.

 

This picture is actually of Italian pent-roof vans (not French) at Pembridge (not Kington) as annotated. The consensus is that they were ventilated vans carrying produce but why in the back of beyond in rural Herefordshire remains a puzzle!...Transporting cider apples to Italy maybe....! 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Re6/6

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

.... at Par Harbour. But did they get there on a ferry, and if so, where?

Would be nice to say they were ferried out to the Scilly Isles ...................................... but that's just silly !

[The Johnster]

Par has a track record of unsubstantiated claims going back 2 millenia to when it was a tin exporting port used by the Phoenecians, Greeks, and Romans.  In Hayle Towans, on the hill to the west of the harbour overlooking the sea, is (or was in the early 80's; I've not been down that far sicne then), a pub rejoicing in the name of the 'Bucket of Blood', because, a few centuries ago, two locals got into a fight and took it outside where one stabbed the other to death and shoved him down the well, so 'when the maid went out in the marnin fer the water, she drew a bucket o' blood!!!'.

 

Well, ok, I'll allow the benefit of the doubt on that one, but a framed screed in the hallway made a rather more interesting if less probably claim.  Pointing out the port's deep history as am ancient source of tin for the Bronze Age classical world, it then went on to suggest that amongst the regular traders, and occasional vistors to a pub that we cannot prove didn't exist on those days because the well quite possibly did, was Joseph of Aramithea, opening the old Glastonbury Thorn/And Did those Feet wormcan.  It didn't actually state that the young Jesus had dropped in for a pint, but did it's best to give that impression.  It's not impossible, but neither is my winning the lotto on Saturday...

 

So it would be no surprise if a train ferry service, perhaps to the fabled Isle of Avalon, was claimed...

[Jeremy Cumberland]

There are plenty of Biblical records of Jesus going on a boat - perhaps it was quicker than walking - but I don't think He ever went by train. Joseph, Mary and Jesus flew to Egypt, of course (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_into_Egypt).

[Wickham Green too]

Don't forget "the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon, she went to Jerusalem with a great train" - so the technology was around in the ancient world !

[KeithMacdonald]

There a loads of videos on YouTube of the "Jesus Train". But don't we all know Jesus preferred a motorbike and side-car?

 

Meanwhile, Paul Bartlett provides a clue. 

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ferryitalianvan

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

One from Andy Kirkham on Flickr

 

 

Well, OK, they are Italian ferry vans, and they're at Par Harbour. But did they get there on a ferry, and if so, where?

 

 

 

I would guess that they are there to be loaded with bagged china clay, and will travel back to the Continent via Dover; see thread on Dover ferry traffic elsewhere on RMweb.

 

CJI.

[Trog]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Par has a track record of unsubstantiated claims going back 2 millenia to when it was a tin exporting port used by the Phoenecians, Greeks, and Romans. .....................

 

Well, ok, I'll allow the benefit of the doubt on that one, but a framed screed in the hallway made a rather more interesting if less probably claim.  Pointing out the port's deep history as am ancient source of tin for the Bronze Age classical world, it then went on to suggest that amongst the regular traders, and occasional vistors to a pub that we cannot prove didn't exist on those days because the well quite possibly did, was Joseph of Aramithea, opening the old Glastonbury Thorn/And Did those Feet worm can.  It didn't actually state that the young Jesus had dropped in for a pint, but did it's best to give that impression.  It's not impossible, but neither is my winning the lotto on Saturday...

 

Surely if he had there would be references in the Bible to Jesus turning wine into pints of warm beer, and how it reminded the local Centurion Biggus Dickus of the time he spent as a young recruit stationed on the wall in that far northern province.

[RANGERS]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Would be nice to say they were ferried out to the Scilly Isles ...................................... but that's just silly !

Perhaps they’d originated in Sicily….

[Fat Controller]

6 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

One from Andy Kirkham on Flickr

 

 

Well, OK, they are Italian ferry vans, and they're at Par Harbour. But did they get there on a ferry, and if so, where?

 

 

They would have crossed the Channel via the train ferry to Dover. Having unloaded their cargo somewhere in mainland UK, the empty wagons were sent to Cornwall, where there was no shortage of backloads, mainly of bagged china clay

[Kris]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

In Hayle Towans, on the hill to the west of the harbour overlooking the sea, is (or was in the early 80's; I've not been down that far sicne then), a pub rejoicing in the name of the 'Bucket of Blood', because, a few centuries ago, two locals got into a fight and took it outside where one stabbed the other to death and shoved him down the well, so 'when the maid went out in the marnin fer the water, she drew a bucket o' blood!!!'.

 

The pub is still there.

[The Stationmaster]

9 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

They would have crossed the Channel via the train ferry to Dover. Having unloaded their cargo somewhere in mainland UK, the empty wagons were sent to Cornwall, where there was no shortage of backloads, mainly of bagged china clay

Or Harwich back in those days - depends where they came from and where they were going on the continental side.

[Wickham Green too]

12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

..... where they came from and where they were going on the continental side.

How much of a 'common user' arrangement was there between the European railways - could the wagons have been back-loaded to anywhere other than Italy ( or perhaps a.n.other country in between ) ?

[The Stationmaster]

7 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

How much of a 'common user' arrangement was there between the European railways - could the wagons have been back-loaded to anywhere other than Italy ( or perhaps a.n.other country in between ) ?

Depending on the wagon type - some could effectively go almost anywhere but I presume there was the usual daily/weekly accountancy balance between the different Railways.  There will be a UIC fiche somewhere explaining, in at least two different languages, how it's done.

[Wickham Green too]

..... complicated, of course, by the fact that these are not 'normal' continental vehicles but among the relatively few that would fit our loading gauge ( except 'Between Tonbridge and West St.Leonards', naturally.).

[jonhall]

43 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

How much of a 'common user' arrangement was there between the European railways - could the wagons have been back-loaded to anywhere other than Italy ( or perhaps a.n.other country in between ) ?

 

The wagons could be back loaded to certain 3rd countries that were en-route, in broad terms an Italian wagon could be back loaded to France or Switzerland, as they were both in the right direction, but not to Holland, because it wasn't - there where lists of what was and wasn't acceptable.

 

In effect BR paid demurrage for all continental (administration owned) ferry wagons from as soon as they arrived in the UK, therefore they were tightly controlled centrally, local stations couldn't make those decisions. Britain was always a net importer via the train ferry so a number of vans would go back empty, and in the early days of the train ferries the LNER provided the boats, and the Belgians provided the wagons, and this seemed to continue until the BR 'VIX' vans, so for the most part there would have been back loads in continental wagons.

 

Jon

[jonhall]

22 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

..... complicated, of course, by the fact that these are not 'normal' continental vehicles but among the relatively few that would fit our loading gauge ( except 'Between Tonbridge and West St.Leonards', naturally.).

 

There was a 'Europ' pool of common users but that was strictly for non-ferry vehicles.

 

The list of restrictions on Ferry wagons was wide ranging as well, not just down the Hastings line (or the Canterbury and Whitstable which also seemed to get painted on) but all sorts of other places,

 

Jon

[Wickham Green too]

...... hopefully they'd twigged that the 'Whitstable Harbour Branch' was closed by 1974 ! 🙄

 

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Kris said:

The pub is still there.

Glad to hear it; it was a good pub!