Freiwald Traincontroller to cease use of USB licencing sticks for new purchases

[melmerby]

 

11 minutes ago, RFS said:

How do other paid-for automation software products, eg iTrain, prevent illegal licence sharing?

Probably like the software I already have, a license managing system.

 

You run the software first time (set up) and it asks for the license code, this is then stored at the company end with the computer details.

If you try to load and run it on another PC it won't let you because it's already registered.

 

It seems to be fairly secure, as that seems to be how the big boys mostly do it.

 

AS to the USB stick - it has been hacked as there have been USB -free versions of TC sloshing about on the net.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by melmerby

[MarshLane]

42 minutes ago, melmerby said:

That's Freiwald's reasoning.

Plenty have dodgy or non-existent mobile coverage, i'm not sure what mine is like now, as at one time there was little or no signal at ground level. Even the BT chap installing the fibre broadband in the house had a problem.

This is in a built up area not too far from Birmingham.

 

I do have wired internet in my railway room, which is 25m or so from the house, if like many the only internet is by phone, you could be b*ggered

 

But do you have a USB key or not at the moment?

 

 

34 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

They can’t and if someone shares the licence then there is nowt that can be done other than revoke the licence when the duplication of licence use is found out.

 

The major difference is that the software (ITrain) is sold at a reasonable price that people can afford which reduces the likelihood of licence sharing, plus the author is very helpful and will to extend trial licences giving people enough time to understand the product. There is also no surcharge applied when upgrading from one version to a higher version.

 

The problem is that logic does not hold true.  This is why most of the railway magazines for example dont like distribution PDFs - there are ways around it - but even at £3 or £4 for an issue, people pass copies about .. and the file sharing sites such as WeTransfer and Dropbox make it so much easier for people to pass it on.  

 

The one aspect being forgotten in this entire discussion - like it or not - Mr Freiwald has spent a long time (probably years) learning the skills to programme and learning how to make the software do what he wants.  He has then spent more years developing the software, testing it, solving all the bugs, and expanding it to sound and cars etc.  The net result is that all that work in real terms represents an investment of thousands of pounds/euros whatever. So while something he does may not work for a small number of people, why should he not protect his investment and his product in the way he sees fit?  I am not in anyway trying to start an argument here, just pointing out the other side of the coin.

 

[RFS]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

 

Probably like the software I already have, a license managing system.

 

You run the software first time (set up) and it asks for the license code, this is then stored at the company end with the computer details.

If you try to load and run it on another PC it won't let you because it's already registered.

 

It seems to be fairly secure, as that seems to be how the big boys mostly do it.

 

AS to the USB stick - it has been hacked as there have been USB -free versions of TC sloshing about on the net.

 

 

 

With TC the USB stick is easily portable and can only be used on one PC at a time. Seems Freiwald is trying to replicate that functionality with this new method as I suspect many people must be using it. 

 

The licence managing system you describe is not portable in the same way. What happens if you replace your PC?

Edited July 2, 2022 by RFS

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, MarshLane said:

 

But do you have a USB key or not at the moment?

 

Yes I do have one and often use the model railway without an internet connexion and with a poor mobile signal in the railway room

I've already stated in previous discussions on Freiwald software that I am not willing to pay for any more upgrades, due to his illogical and downright discriminatory approach to business, so the issue will not arise.

 

My argument is why can't he do what other companies mostly do? Why does it have to be done in such a way that ties you to some kind of internet

Apart from such things as a browser, nothing else I use is so restrictive, it also sounds fraught with problems.

[melmerby]

10 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

With TC the USB stick is easily portable and can only be used on one PC at a time. Seems Freiwald is trying to replicate that functionality with this new method I suspect many people must be using it. 

 

The licence managing system you describe is not portable in the same way. What happens if you replace your PC?

You sign into the license management page, remove the one computer from the system and replace it with another.

I've had to do that a few times with various programs.

 

Kaspersky has multiple device options, so with a 5 device license you can add 5 devices, if you try to add a 6th you can't unless you remove one of the others.

Handy if you change your phone or the PC. You can enter the license management from any of the devices, so say your PC catches fire and vaporizes🙁. Log in with your phone and remove ithe PC from the system.

When it's been replaced, log in from it and add it to the list.

Freiwald could operate a system like that

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by melmerby

[MarshLane]

6 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Yes I do have one and often use the model railway without an internet connexion and with a poor mobile signal in the railway room

I've already stated in previous discussions on Freiwald software that I am not willing to pay for any more upgrades, due to his illogical and downright discriminatory approach to business, so the issue will not arise.

 

My argument is why can't he do what other companies mostly do? Why does it have to be done in such a way that ties you to some kind of internet

Apart from such things as a browser, nothing else I use is so restrictive, it also sounds fraught with problems.

 

For the same reason why niche magazines like the railway titles dont use Adobe Digital Rights Management - its too expensive.  The internet is a fact of life now.  Templot was exactly the same until recently when Martin changed it.  If you didn't have a connection to the internet to start the programme, it wouldn't start.  I knew this and worked around it.  For example starting the software before leaving home, and then just putting the computer to sleep mode.  THat way the software didn't have to restart and hey presto it was usable without an internet connection.

 

There are pros and cons - you can't please everyone.  But as a developer its your right to make it work how you want, not the customers right to demand it works how they want - you'd never get anything as everyone wants something different.  

 

But the second line of your response questions why you are debating it.  Why not email Mr Freiwald (I suggest in a polite way) and point out the issues you have.  Feedback preferably polite and constructive is always the users best friend.  If the developer doesn't know what's causing an issue, how can he judge whether it needs fixing/changing/adapting?

 

[Andymsa]

21 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

But do you have a USB key or not at the moment?

 

 

 

The problem is that logic does not hold true.  This is why most of the railway magazines for example dont like distribution PDFs - there are ways around it - but even at £3 or £4 for an issue, people pass copies about .. and the file sharing sites such as WeTransfer and Dropbox make it so much easier for people to pass it on.  

 

The one aspect being forgotten in this entire discussion - like it or not - Mr Freiwald has spent a long time (probably years) learning the skills to programme and learning how to make the software do what he wants.  He has then spent more years developing the software, testing it, solving all the bugs, and expanding it to sound and cars etc.  The net result is that all that work in real terms represents an investment of thousands of pounds/euros whatever. So while something he does may not work for a small number of people, why should he not protect his investment and his product in the way he sees fit?  I am not in anyway trying to start an argument here, just pointing out the other side of the coin.

 

although all the above can be said to be true, his nearest competitor I-train has a completely different business model which the above could also be said off. The real issue is what ever product protections put in place can be circumvented with enough effort, the trick is to make the cost of said product attractive in cost terms not to make the effort to use a illegal copy. With the cost of TC these days he has virtually priced himself out the market for outdated programming language which in time will cease to run on windows computers which makes illegal use attractive to some hence this move. That said there are many examples of odd business decision's he has made in times past, this is just another one of those odd choices he makes.  

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, MarshLane said:

 

Why not email Mr Freiwald (I suggest in a polite way) and point out the issues you have.  Feedback preferably polite and constructive is always the users best friend.  If the developer doesn't know what's causing an issue, how can he judge whether it needs fixing/changing/adapting?

 

He has shown that he is not exactly enamoured by feedback that does not reflect his own idea of the world.

The program is very much his "baby" and any suggestion, politely or otherwise, about doing something in a different way usually gets a brusque reply.

As far as he is concerned he is always right.

 

I have been with Train Controller since soon after Ver 7 appeared so about 14(?) years and have seen most of his "teddy out of the pram" moments but these came to a head during the Brexit and US presidential elections.

He had different pricing in different EU states and made it so you couldn't buy from outside your own location (illegal under the cross border purchasing rules).

Once we had voted for Brexit but were still in the EU goods market for a couple of years we should have still paid the same price as others but were hammered with a huge increase, way beyond any extra costs he claimed he incurred

He also said he wouldn't sell to any State of the Union that voted for Donald Trump.

 

[Wheatley]

I like the sound of him personally. (Strictly DC so no dog in this particular fight). 

[melmerby]

54 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

although all the above can be said to be true, his nearest competitor I-train has a completely different business model which the above could also be said off. The real issue is what ever product protections put in place can be circumvented with enough effort, the trick is to make the cost of said product attractive in cost terms not to make the effort to use a illegal copy. With the cost of TC these days he has virtually priced himself out the market for outdated programming language which in time will cease to run on windows computers which makes illegal use attractive to some hence this move. That said there are many examples of odd business decision's he has made in times past, this is just another one of those odd choices he makes.  

I'm not sure cost comes into it as Kaspersky have a fairly rigid licensing system in place, although IMHO user friendly, but the software is also not expensive compared to train automation.

A 5 device, 2 year license for Kaspersky Internet Security is only about £40 or less, so £4 per year per device.

 

[WIMorrison]

Keith,

 

Kaspersky have a large team constantly updating the virus signatures and developing code to neutralise the virus/trojan/malware and they need to ensure that all the licenced copies of their software get the support and updates relevant to the product you have paid for. This needs to work for the millions of customers that they have, using many operating systems whereas Freiwald has to make something work for a a few thousand users using one operating system - the scale and complexity of the operations cannot be compared.

[MarshLane]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

He has shown that he is not exactly enamoured by feedback that does not reflect his own idea of the world.

The program is very much his "baby" and any suggestion, politely or otherwise, about doing something in a different way usually gets a brusque reply.

As far as he is concerned he is always right.

 

I have been with Train Controller since soon after Ver 7 appeared so about 14(?) years and have seen most of his "teddy out of the pram" moments but these came to a head during the Brexit and US presidential elections.

He had different pricing in different EU states and made it so you couldn't buy from outside your own location (illegal under the cross border purchasing rules).

Once we had voted for Brexit but were still in the EU goods market for a couple of years we should have still paid the same price as others but were hammered with a huge increase, way beyond any extra costs he claimed he incurred

He also said he wouldn't sell to any State of the Union that voted for Donald Trump.

 

 

I have to say I have had a small handful of email conversations with the chap over the years, when I have enquired about different this, whether something would be possible or not, and I have had always had a satisfactory and sensible reply - a conversation a couple of times.  Maybe I just caught things on a good day.

 

 

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

He also said he wouldn't sell to any State of the Union that voted for Donald Trump.

Sounds a very sensible plan - if somebody thinks Donald Trump is a Presidential do they deserve to have such software!!  😂  

 

 

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

I'm not sure cost comes into it as Kaspersky have a fairly rigid licensing system in place, although IMHO user friendly, but the software is also not expensive compared to train automation.

A 5 device, 2 year license for Kaspersky Internet Security is only about £40 or less, so £4 per year per device.

 

Yes, and as you're very aware - FAR more people use Kaspersky than use TrainController - economics obviously come into these things.  But again, its his product and if we dont like it, there are other options.  May I ask how many times you've written to Microsoft, Google or Apple and received an update that took your feedback into consideration and amended the outcome? (That was a rhetorical question!)  I guess at the end of the day, we are just debating things between ourselves, with nobody having any influence or input over the outcome!

 

However, this is a public forum, and each is entitled to his/her own opinions and views, I'll respectfully agree to differ.

 

[Andymsa]

11 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 

I have to say I have had a small handful of email conversations with the chap over the years, when I have enquired about different this, whether something would be possible or not, and I have had always had a satisfactory and sensible reply - a conversation a couple of times.  Maybe I just caught things on a good day.

 

 

Sounds a very sensible plan - if somebody thinks Donald Trump is a Presidential do they deserve to have such software!!  😂  

 

 

 

Yes, and as you're very aware - FAR more people use Kaspersky than use TrainController - economics obviously come into these things.  But again, its his product and if we dont like it, there are other options.  May I ask how many times you've written to Microsoft, Google or Apple and received an update that took your feedback into consideration and amended the outcome? (That was a rhetorical question!)  I guess at the end of the day, we are just debating things between ourselves, with nobody having any influence or input over the outcome!

 

However, this is a public forum, and each is entitled to his/her own opinions and views, I'll respectfully agree to differ.

 

Yes it’s called I-train to name but one, to try and compare a large multinational to a one man band outfit is ridiculous. But let’s look at a fact to increase the price to the U.K. because we voted democratically to leave Europe, and stick two thumbs up to the legislative processes that protect such actions as this discriminatory  price rise does really reflect a company’s view to there prospective purchasers and former purchasers. It has even been reported from the owner himself as such that to restrict sales to certain countries he adopts certain practices. But if your going to compare the likes of Microsoft even with there updates you get information on which features have been improved, freiwald won’t and blames users for this lack of info because he thinks it causes problems for him. A further issue is that TC uses outdated programming language in time windows won’t support the language, so the choice is to use outdated computers which run the risk of exposure to all sorts of unsavoury nasties. instead of of worrying about passwords the programme needs a radical update to work with future computers and operating systems, and unless it does the program will cease to be viable on all fronts. This is where I-train is scoring massive points because it’s progressive and is being developed, don’t get me wrong both programs are good in different ways but TC seems to have stopped any development going forward apart from minor tweaks.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Andymsa

[melmerby]

11 hours ago, Andymsa said:

TC seems to have stopped any development going forward apart from minor tweaks.

Agree

The much vaunted upgrade from ver 8 to ver 9 was IMHO a bit of a damp squib.

Also this charging users for an add-on (+ Hardware) which is required when new DCC systems come along rather than updating the core software to suit, seems totally out of order e.g. the Lenz update from 3.6 to 4.0 and new hardware, which was far from being a radical change.

 

BTW as regards mobile internet mentioned earlier by some posters.

I have just tried my smart phone in the 'Railway Room', which is at the bottom of the garden.

Absolutely no signal. There is rarely more than 50% in the house and that varies considerably from not a lot to sufficient depending where you are.

So if I was relying on that to operate the software I wouldn't be able to log on to use it.

 

[spamcan61]

15 hours ago, Wheatley said:

I like the sound of him personally. (Strictly DC so no dog in this particular fight). 

Same here, I do find his manner refreshingly candid, although I'm glad I don't have time and money invested in his software.

If his USB sticks have been hacked then fair enough I can see his need to do something more secure, even if it is rather clunky.

 

In terms of "if the software is cheap enough people won't pirate it" approach then that isn't going to work with something as niche as this. Even if it was 10 bucks a pop he wouldn't sell a million.

[martin_wynne]

17 hours ago, MarshLane said:

Templot was exactly the same until recently when Martin changed it.  If you didn't have a connection to the internet to start the programme, it wouldn't start.

@MarshLane

 

That was not done to protect my work. Templot is free for anyone to use, so it makes no difference to me how many people use it.

 

The reason was to ensure that folks always update to the latest version. I just got fed up with folks who insist on using a 15-year-old version, and then expect to get support and answers on how to do things with it. With the result that my answers take ages to write and confuse those who are using later versions which work differently (generally more easily) with extra features.

 

Also they tended to write articles and post on web forums about using Templot, giving out-of-date information, and old complicated methods to do what is now easily done with a few clicks.

 

Templot still does the version check on startup, but I removed the "won't run without it" setting because I got so many moans about it. But the terms of use for Templot still do not permit the use of out-of-date versions. I refuse point blank to answer Templot questions if you are not using the latest version. Templot tells you on startup if there is a later version, and the update is easy to do.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

Same here, I do find his manner refreshingly candid, although I'm glad I don't have time and money invested in his software.

If his USB sticks have been hacked then fair enough I can see his need to do something more secure, even if it is rather clunky.

 

what ever system of protection employed will always prone to being hacked

[MarshLane]

3 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

@MarshLane

 

That was not done to protect my work. Templot is free for anyone to use, so it makes no difference to me how many people use it.

 

The reason was to ensure that folks always update to the latest version. I just got fed up with folks who insist on using a 15-year-old version, and then expect to get support and answers on how to do things with it. With the result that my answers take ages to write and confuse those who are using later versions which work differently (generally more easily) with extra features.

 

Also they tended to write articles and post on web forums about using Templot, giving out-of-date information, and old complicated methods to do what is now easily done with a few clicks.

 

Templot still does the version check on startup, but I removed the "won't run without it" setting because I got so many moans about it. But the terms of use for Templot still do not permit the use of out-of-date versions. I refuse point blank to answer Templot questions if you are not using the latest version. Templot tells you on startup if there is a later version, and the update is easy to do.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Hi Martin,

Sorry, yes I should have pointed that out, that it was to ensure the latest version. For clarity, my ‘exactly the same comment’ referred to needing an internet connection to start, purely to illustrate that the software being discussed was not the only one that required an internet connection. No offence intended, I still believe Templot is one of the best pieces of layout design software, and have no issues at all with your terms of use.

 

Rich

[melmerby]

I can remember way back when Autocad (and some other professional programs) needed a dongle to work (which is what the USB stick effectively is).

They abandoned that method of security yonks ago, probably before Freiwald started using one.

 

 

[AndyID]

On 02/07/2022 at 09:55, melmerby said:

 

He also said he wouldn't sell to any State of the Union that voted for Donald Trump.

 

 

I won't be able to buy it then but I do like the sound of the guy 😀

[Haymarket47]

On 02/07/2022 at 21:31, MarshLane said:

 

I have to say I have had a small handful of email conversations with the chap over the years, when I have enquired about different this, whether something would be possible or not, and I have had always had a satisfactory and sensible reply - a conversation a couple of times.  Maybe I just caught things on a good day.

 

 

Sounds a very sensible plan - if somebody thinks Donald Trump is a Presidential do they deserve to have such software!!  😂  

 

 

 

Yes, and as you're very aware - FAR more people use Kaspersky than use TrainController - economics obviously come into these things.  But again, its his product and if we dont like it, there are other options.  May I ask how many times you've written to Microsoft, Google or Apple and received an update that took your feedback into consideration and amended the outcome? (That was a rhetorical question!)  I guess at the end of the day, we are just debating things between ourselves, with nobody having any influence or input over the outcome!

 

However, this is a public forum, and each is entitled to his/her own opinions and views, I'll respectfully agree to differ.

 

So Herr Freiwald won’t sell to a state which voted for Trump. Imagine if you were a railway modeler and voted for a Democrat in that state and you can’t purchase the software - its ludicrous. We have idiots in Scotland who won’t buy supermarket products because they have the Union flag on them - very childish. I accept that it’s Freiwalds decision but it’s crazy nonetheless. Also, Trump in a speech some time ago when he was president pointed out that Germany was too reliant on Russian energy - the German delegation was seen laughing at this comment. Don’t suppose the smiles will be there now - Herr Freiwald might be having a change of mind 😂😂. I’m no fan of Trump either as he has issues with democratic outcomes too. 

[andi80796]

I'm not sure what the lesser evil is.  
Both ways have their drawbacks. Imagine that USB stick gives out during a train show...
I myself was unfortunate enough to receive a defective USB Stick in 2020 (it was not recognized by any one of my four PCs). It was absolutely bizarre how Herr Freiwald handled the replacement procedure. As a result, I still to this day do not have a functioning USB-Stick.
Having the option of license verification though the internet rather than the USB dongle would have saved me a lot of aggravation. 
Of course, it should be portable from one PC to another - I'm sure that is the case, as long as it only runs one instance at a time. 
It is still hard to wrap one's mind around why, with all the IT businesses that have figured out a customer-friendly way to keep track of their licensed users, TrainController makes it so hard for its clients to use the product - not to mention the most unaccommodating client service if something goes wrong. 
 

Edited October 22, 2022 by andi80796

[andi80796]

On 02/07/2022 at 13:25, Wheatley said:

I like the sound of him personally. (Strictly DC so no dog in this particular fight). 

That may be true, as long as you are on his good side. But buyer beware if you catch him on a bad day...

 

[andi80796]

On 02/07/2022 at 11:17, melmerby said:

 

 

If you try to load and run it on another PC it won't let you because it's already registered.

 

It should give you the option to transfer to a different PC - that's how most software works - allowing a fixed number of installations only (in this case: one), but not tied to the physical machine where it was first installed.

On 02/07/2022 at 11:17, melmerby said:

AS to the USB stick - it has been hacked as there have been USB -free versions of TC sloshing about on the net.

 

 

Is that really so, or just according to Herr Freiwald? 

[melmerby]

10 hours ago, andi80796 said:

It should give you the option to transfer to a different PC - that's how most software works - allowing a fixed number of installations only (in this case: one), but not tied to the physical machine where it was first installed.

If you read the posts you will see I already advocated that as a way of doing it.

 

My Quote from the same day you quoted me from:

On 02/07/2022 at 17:27, melmerby said:

You sign into the license management page, remove the one computer from the system and replace it with another.

I've had to do that a few times with various programs.