East West rail, Bletchley to oxford line

[Nearholmer]

I should also have mentioned the Staedler FLIRT trains, which have pretty much exactly the same conceptual architecture as what Vivarail has been attempting to get to. Those trains show what an established builder, with wide market access can do with the concept.
 

Of course, the resulting train is better than an up-cycled D stock, but only if you have the traffic on your route to justify new purchase of what is a heavier, higher performance, brand spanking new train; if you don’t have the traffic to justify that, it’s simply unaffordable, which is where  up-cycling and a firm with low overheads comes in, or maybe now doesn’t.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Tony Teague]

Anyone got an update on EWR? 🥱

[jamie92208]

I presume thst having got the bridge deck in place at the HS2 crossing, they will now get on with the approach embankments. The rails are due to be completed next year I believe.

 

Jamie

[Tony Teague]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

I presume thst having got the bridge deck in place at the HS2 crossing, they will now get on with the approach embankments. The rails are due to be completed next year I believe.

 

Jamie

 

I think you are right but the line is still not scheduled to open until 2024 - which seems a long way off; I suppose there is still a lot to do in terms of signalling etc.

[VarsityJim]

I take it that the original line used to run under that lovely old brick bridge (in the middle of those HS2 photos) which will become obsolete and therefore demolished?

[Tony Teague]

27 minutes ago, VarsityJim said:

I take it that the original line used to run under that lovely old brick bridge (in the middle of those HS2 photos) which will become obsolete and therefore demolished?

 

That's not too clear because, if we are looking at the same bridge, then it was a road bridge over EWR whichwould still be needed, however, there appears to be a new one being constructed just behind it. The HS2 website says (about current works in that area):

• Construction of the temporary diversion of Gawcott Road is due to commence in early 2023;
• Continued closure of Gawcott Road to demolish the existing bridge in early 2023;

So it does look like you are correct.

 

[VarsityJim]

23 minutes ago, Tony Teague said:

 

That's not too clear because, if we are looking at the same bridge, then it was a road bridge over EWR whichwould still be needed, however, there appears to be a new one being constructed just behind it. The HS2 website says (about current works in that area):

• Construction of the temporary diversion of Gawcott Road is due to commence in early 2023;
• Continued closure of Gawcott Road to demolish the existing bridge in early 2023;

So it does look like you are correct.

 

Thanks. Big shame!

[corneliuslundie]

I agree that we should end the debate about the class 230s. There is not going to be agreement.

One last comment about Vivarail, though not technical. I wonder how the retirement and then death of Adrian Shooter affected the company.

And a rolling stock question. Assuming that the whole of EWR as originally envisaged was not to be run using class 230 units(!), has anything even been said about what is to be used? Something will be needed when phase 2 opens and even two years is not long to procure stock from scratch.

Assuming that it will ever open!

Jonathan

[ess1uk]

49 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

And a rolling stock question. Assuming that the whole of EWR as originally envisaged was not to be run using class 230 units(!), has anything even been said about what is to be used? Something will be needed when phase 2 opens and even two years is not long to procure stock from scratch.

There are plenty of 769 not being used

Edited December 17, 2022 by ess1uk

[Mike_Walker]

I think Adrian remained as chairman until quite recently.  He remained remarkably active considering his condition until the last few weeks when his symptoms took a dramatic and sudden turn for the worse leading him to enact a long-term plan to go to Switzerland and in his own words "go peacefully to sleep in a clinic".  He had staffed VivaRail with a team of talented engineers but as others have said it was outside events that brought the company down.  Filing for administration when they did probably didn't do much for Adrian's spirits although he might just have forced it through to tidy up affairs - it would be typical of the man.

 

As for EWR, I've heard that the 175s, which will be released by TfW when their new fleets are in service, are in the frame.  In my view it is criminal that this, in effect, "new" railway is not being electrified from the outset but what can we expect from such a chaotic government?

[ess1uk]

6 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

 

As for EWR, I've heard that the 175s, which will be released by TfW when their new fleets are in service, are in the frame.  In my view it is criminal that this, in effect, "new" railway is not being electrified from the outset but what can we expect from such a chaotic government?

Have sites for any substations been identified and provision made for future use?

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

 

That's not too clear because, if we are looking at the same bridge, then it was a road bridge over EWR whichwould still be needed, however, there appears to be a new one being constructed just behind it. The HS2 website says (about current works in that area):

• Construction of the temporary diversion of Gawcott Road is due to commence in early 2023;
• Continued closure of Gawcott Road to demolish the existing bridge in early 2023;

So it does look like you are correct.

 

I haven't checked the maps but is the new railway goi g to bevhighervin that location due to the approach embankments to the HS2 bridge.

 

Jamie

[martinT]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

And a rolling stock question. Assuming that the whole of EWR as originally envisaged was not to be run using class 230 units(!), has anything even been said about what is to be used? Something will be needed when phase 2 opens and even two years is not long to procure stock from scratch.

Assuming that it will ever open!

Jonathan

We've been here before - 13th July!

 

This Wiki page:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_196   suggests that new Class 196 DMUs are being considered for use on the line. Initially 6 2-car units will be allocated to the Oxford - MK service. It references an article '196s for East West Rail' in Modern Railways.

 

Martin

[rodent279]

2 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

 

As for EWR, I've heard that the 175s, which will be released by TfW when their new fleets are in service, are in the frame.  In my view it is criminal that this, in effect, "new" railway is not being electrified from the outset but what can we expect from such a chaotic government?

But that would still leave the short platforms on the BY-Bedford stretch to be addressed

[Mike_Walker]

44 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

But that would still leave the short platforms on the BY-Bedford stretch to be addressed

The first phase opening in 2024 will be Oxford to Milton Keynes, not Bedford.  Options for Bletchley to Bedford are still being considered.

[corneliuslundie]

But that's crazy. Surely it should be treated as a through route? I despair.

Jonathan

[Bernard Lamb]

39 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

But that's crazy. Surely it should be treated as a through route? I despair.

Jonathan

Join the club.

The best way to get passengers to start to use rail is to introduce buses on the existing part of the line.

The mid doth truly boggle. You could not make it up.

Bernard

[jamie92208]

There have been various options put forward for  Blethley to Bedford. These inclyde reducing the number of stations, relocating a few and eliminating several level crossings. IIRC thevexisting users and residents were not happy.

 

Jamie

[Davexoc]

24 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

There have been various options put forward for  Blethley to Bedford. These inclyde reducing the number of stations, relocating a few and eliminating several level crossings. IIRC thevexisting users and residents were not happy.

 

When you look at the Fenny Startford to Forders section with all those level crossings (in pink) , the close proximity of the stations and the fact that both ends are currently single line, it does seem to be a bit of a headache for the planners. Whether this section could be re-doubled in its entirity with bi-directional signalling, and then with some careful timetable planning run with some dynamic looping to allow both fast and stoppers, who knows?

The problem for the locals with all those crossings is that the barriers will be down for longer if services are non-stop, and even longer if you mix non-stop with stoppers. The area has and is seeing more and more housing, so there could be more passengers, but there will also be more who won't be wanting to wait at the crossings. Difficult to please both parties.

 

 

Oh look, 1A40 running through MK on an almost trainless day.....

[rodent279]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

But that's crazy. Surely it should be treated as a through route? I despair.

Jonathan

In any sane country, yes, but this is Britain in the early 2020's, crazy is what we do.

[Northmoor]

15 minutes ago, Davexoc said:

 

When you look at the Fenny Startford to Forders section with all those level crossings (in pink) , the close proximity of the stations and the fact that both ends are currently single line, it does seem to be a bit of a headache for the planners. Whether this section could be re-doubled in its entirity with bi-directional signalling, and then with some careful timetable planning run with some dynamic looping to allow both fast and stoppers, who knows?

The problem for the locals with all those crossings is that the barriers will be down for longer if services are non-stop, and even longer if you mix non-stop with stoppers. The area has and is seeing more and more housing, so there could be more passengers, but there will also be more who won't be wanting to wait at the crossings. Difficult to please both parties.

 

 

Oh look, 1A40 running through MK on an almost trainless day.....

In view of the expected development along the route and its impact on road traffic, rather than bridge over the railway, you could see the line being substantially rebuilt with a series of extended flyovers and/or elevated sections between Bedford and Bletchley.  These could have relatively steep approaches as apart from waste traffic to Stewartby (and how long will that continue?), the trains will all be high power-to-weight units capable of traversing such "humps" without hardly slowing.  If the line were electrified, gradients are even less of an issue.  The locals might complain of the view of a concrete viaduct, but the landscape in that area isn't something you'd move in for anyway.

[melmerby]

7 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

In any sane country, yes, but this is Britain in the early 2020's, crazy is what we do.

Always been the same.

The Railways were never developed in any logical way, each individual company going it's own way, with no thought of a joined up network.

Different structure gauges, different rail gauges, even after early amalgamations the differences persisted.

At least by 1892 the rail gauge was unified.

Passenger vehicle couplers didn't get standardised until BR built the Mk 1s but we still had loads of buffer fitted stock.

 

IMHO many years ago (maybe at the grouping?) we should've had some sort of National Railway Administration which would've set standards for all future railway construction both static & moving.

No powers on actual operation of the trains though.

 

 

 

[melmerby]

35 minutes ago, Davexoc said:

Oh look, 1A40 running through MK on an almost trainless day.....

Avanti are running one train an hour to each Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool & Glasgow.

 

During the last week's strike, at one point there was bit of a queue of Southbound trains passing through Rugby, 4 trains in about 10mins plus a freight.

 

At least the freight trains get a quicker journey, using the fast lines most of the time.

6Y64 is lost on the tracking as it's going straight down the fast, instead of via Northampton.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:B50978/2022-12-17/detailed

Edited December 17, 2022 by melmerby

[corneliuslundie]

But wasn't all this considered when East-West Rail was proposed? I would have expected it to be an essential part of any proposal. But as was said, this is Britain in 2022. So no place for joined up thinking.

And I agree any sane government would be insisting on electrification, not preventing it.

Jonathan 

[Pete the Elaner]

8 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

 

As for EWR, I've heard that the 175s, which will be released by TfW when their new fleets are in service, are in the frame.  In my view it is criminal that this, in effect, "new" railway is not being electrified from the outset but what can we expect from such a chaotic government?

 

The government is hypocritical.

They want petrol/diesel cars to be available in 2030, which is 8 years from now. Have they started a drive to install more charging points? I have not seen so.

I was chatting to a friend last night who went to a theatre production in Manchester. Leaving the car on charge while they were there would have bene perfect, but this was not available so they had to make an additional stop on the way home to charge. This is not how EV charging needs to be.

So no new diesel cars after 2030, yet they will still allow a new line to open in 2024, operated by diesel-powered trains.

 

🙄