Will Vale Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 This is only a tiny idea, but it helped me out last night and I haven't seen it before, so I thought I'd share: If you do loose ballasting, it's usually a bad idea to tamp it after you've wet it, since it's too easy to disturb the surface, pick up grains, and generally make a mess. I've been using Klear for my ballast and because I had a few spots where quite a large droplet built up on the surface before it wicked away, I had little divots and imperfections in the wet ballast. I tried to tamp gingerly with a finger, and with vinyl gloves, but both tended to pick up grains. But! Using baking (greaseproof) paper as a barrier seems to work - I placed it over the spot to tamp, rubbed gently with my finger on the back, and removed it. No grains lifted, and it didn't displace the ballast sideways either. I don't have the pics to show the contrast but the greaseproof-tamped surface is a fair bit smoother than the finger-tamped one, and required less care to achieve. The one caveat is that I haven't tried it with dilute PVA, but it might well work - Klear feels similarly sticky to the touch. Thanks to my neighbour Karen for the idea - although her tip was originally in the context of smoothing butter icing for childrens' birthday cakes Cheers, Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted June 28, 2010 Share Posted June 28, 2010 Next time you're ballasting Will stick a little isopropyl alcohol in the Klear with a drop of washing up liquid and it'll soak straight in avoiding the need to tamp it whilst wet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Vale Posted June 28, 2010 Author Share Posted June 28, 2010 Thanks Andy, I tried a drop of washing up liquid and it helped a bit, I wasn't sure about IPA so it's great to hear it works. The nice thing about doing little bits now and then is there are plenty of opportunities to improve my technique! Cheers, Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Vale Posted June 29, 2010 Author Share Posted June 29, 2010 Well, I did a bit more with a couple of different dilutions of IPA to see what worked best. Using something like 5:1 Klear/IPA didn't make much difference, but using 2:1 was more effective. It made the Klear thicken, rather like PVA does when diluted with IPA. It seems to soak in more slowly, but with less disturbance of the surface so the ballast stays in place. It's also a bit messier - harder to keep it off the sleepers. One thing I didn't try which might be good in really difficult cases (I've used it for setting fine textures with Klear) is misting or dropping alcohol onto the ballast first. This adds another step, but avoids the issue I had with PVA where the slow-drying water tended to cause the rail to tarnish. I'm not sure I can give up the greaseproof yet though - there's always one bit which doesn't settle right and needs attention after the fact... Cheers, Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Taylor Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 ta for clarifying the ratios - i was actually looking for this to ask that question! The other question to erm hi-jack things slightly (sorry Will, and ta Andy) is where would one get sizeable quantities of IPA cheaply to avoid the expensive 100ml bottles sold at shows. Also once mixed up......... if it was kept sealed could this mixture be kept for later use after the initial session was over or would it be better to mix fresh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 where would one get sizeable quantities of IPA cheaply 500ml bottles and 1ltr can be order through a Chemist. Also available from Maplins. Can also be found on ebay. Not all IPA is created equal. You will find different strengths with lower strengths already having water added. As an aside, with the original comment regarding Klear, some of the problems might be with the ballast being used. Woodland Scenics and Carr's are lighter than some other brands and can "float" when Klear is added. I have not experienced this problem using Klear with heavier ballasts and would suggest you might like to give the Hornby Skalescene ballasts a go. They are heavier and do not discolour when Klear or PVA is added. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Vale Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share Posted June 30, 2010 My local chemist sells small (50ml, 100ml?) bottles of IPA over the counter, but they were quite unhappy when I asked for a larger quantity. I think their script for "who may buy this stuff" expected me to say I wanted it for cleaning tape heads rather than for model railways. Luckily reason prevailed. As an aside, with the original comment regarding Klear, some of the problems might be with the ballast being used. I'm not sure if this was in reply to me or to twa_dogs, but the ballast I was having to re-tamp was Hornby - albeit the fine stuff. I should add that I like it a lot based on this experience, although I wish the bags were a bit bigger! Cheers, Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted June 30, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 30, 2010 A handy tip indeed and thanks for posting it. I use 50:50 PVA : water for ballasting so next time I do anything more than a spot repair I'll let you know what happens. IPA seems to be a substance which some authorities are becoming more wary of hence a reluctance to sell it in larger quantities. But there is no need to pay over the odds. If you feel one place is selling it at a high price try your local hardware warehouse. Obviously supply will be dictated to some extent by the alert level on this stuff but I can readily purchase 100ml pump bottles at the local Bunnings (the Aussie verision of B&Q) for half the price asked at shows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 the ballast I was having to re-tamp was Hornby - albeit the fine stuff. Like you I have used the fine stuff. For N Gauge there is benefit in sieving it using a tea strainer as grain size can vary. I use the courser grains for the bulk and use the finer grains for the top or visible bits. I have not had any problems using Klear in N but apply it with a pipette either running it along the top of the rail and letting it wick through or applying on a sleeper and again letting it wick through. The Klear in this instance was out of the bottle. I did try using a hyperdermic but if you are not careful the Klear comes out with too much force and can disturb the ballast. Try as I might I really cannot get on with Woodland Scenics. In N even spraying with a fine misting bottle first, you can see the granules move. My local chemist sells small (50ml, 100ml?) bottles of IPA over the counter, but they were quite unhappy when I asked for a larger quantity. It might depend on the Chemist. I went to a local small pharmacy, told the truth of what I wanted it for, and the Pharmacist ordered it. I did however get a different response from Boots who just could not be bothered. Another "excuse" is that it is good for cleaning old vinyl records. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted July 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2010 This hasn't come a moment too soon for me - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/21/entry-4079-callow-lane-ballasting-early-days/ I've started using Klear, but was getting irritated by the disturbance to the ballast, no matter how carefully you drop it on. Using steel rail, I was glad to abandon the high level saturation misting of the track, before dropping dilute PVA onto the ballast. I didn't realise you could add washing up liquid to the Klear either.... I shall try to get some IPA from the chemist on my way home this afternoon!... Edit - and I'll also raid CTMK's store of grease-proof paper! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Vale Posted July 9, 2010 Author Share Posted July 9, 2010 A bit more to follow up on, which I'd forgotten about: When I was doing the path on my layout, I dropped on neat IPA with a pipette before applying the Klear since I remember having trouble getting water or PVA to penetrate the ultra-fine grit last time I used it. The IPA soaks in with no disturbance and paves the way for the Klear - which is good, but it took all night to dry rather than a couple of hours. This might be because it was in a plastic channel so it would only dry through evaporation as opposed to the board wicking away the liquid, but I seem to recall PVA drying slowly in the same situation. It has set properly hard in the end, so it does work! Using steel rail, I was glad to abandon the high level saturation misting of the track Even with nickel-silver rail, that's one of the reasons I currently prefer Klear - I've had several occasions where PVA and/or moisture have caused heavy tarnishing on the rail which was hard to get rid of. Cheers, Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted July 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2010 Here's a result of the first effort. This was with using neat Klear. Next time I'll try the isopropanol/washing up liquid method. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted July 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2010 I've updated my blog tonight. I didn't have any IPA to try, but Re6/6's wooden tamping tool design worked a treat, especially when getting the dry ballast ready for wetting, and the grease-proof paper trick worked a treat too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted July 10, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2010 It got even better tonight - dampening the ballast first with neat IPA from a small spray bottle worked a treat, and the Klear then went on with virtually no significant disturbance of the ballast at all! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Vale Posted August 17, 2010 Author Share Posted August 17, 2010 A minor footnote since I had cause to dig up some ballasted track today. The Klear seems to set nicely in the ballast down to about 3mm deep, but it didn't penetrate further than that in a couple of places where I had holes to fill. This isn't really unexpected, and it's not a problem unless you manage to break through the crust, but it's worth knowing. You can see a cavity revealed where the cork strip is bevelled at the edge of the track above, but that was pretty deep. I tried to fill up most cavities before ballasting but I think I was lazy there Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
panniertank Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 I think that looks better and more realistic then the REAL thing! [i thought it was a photo of some life sized location!] Believe me, I used to work on the railways in a couple of jobs - one of them was PW, and I can assure you, sleepers DO look like that in various locations! Very nice work youv'e made here! Here's a result of the first effort. This was with using neat Klear. Next time I'll try the isopropanol/washing up liquid method. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Do you reckon these chemicals and methods would work on other ballasting methods? I have in mind sand, ash and what I believe is ground furnace slag which looks like coal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 9, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2010 Do you reckon these chemicals and methods would work on other ballasting methods? I have in mind sand, ash and what I believe is ground furnace slag which looks like coal. David - the best advice is probably to give it a try on an experimental length of track that doesn't matter if it goes wrong... If you are using SMP or C&L flexitrack, however, then the substances you mention could be applied on top of neat PVA, brushed carefully around the sleepers... For deeper sleepers, such as Peco or Exactoscale, then I would recommend that the ballasting material is put on dry, then sprayed with neat IPA alcohol and then the fixing medium dripped on carefully. You can use Klear with no problems on material as fine as 2mm ballast, but I haven't tried it on anything finer than that. An alternative method of obtaining 'ash' or 'mud' effects for 'ballast' would be to use Humbrol Air Dry Clay, as described by Chris Nevard when he was building 'Catcott Burtle'.... this is what I am using on the sidings on 'Callow Lane'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattmaz Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 An alternative method of obtaining 'ash' or 'mud' effects for 'ballast' would be to use Humbrol Air Dry Clay, as described by Chris Nevard when he was building 'Catcott Burtle'.... this is what I am using on the sidings on 'Callow Lane'. Just a quick one on this - I recently needed to create a Mud effect, or rather a Fuel contamination effect in a refuelling area (funnily enough!). I had nothing else to hand except Decorators Caulk. I had already ballasted the sidings concerned, then applied small amounts of the Caulk, at the same time smearing it into the ballast/sleepers with my finger until it looked satisfactory. It was then sprayed the correct colour. Might be a cheaper alternative? The Caulk was 99p a tube Regards, Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 16, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2010 Just a quick one on this - I recently needed to create a Mud effect, or rather a Fuel contamination effect in a refuelling area (funnily enough!). I had nothing else to hand except Decorators Caulk. I had already ballasted the sidings concerned, then applied small amounts of the Caulk, at the same time smearing it into the ballast/sleepers with my finger until it looked satisfactory. It was then sprayed the correct colour. Might be a cheaper alternative? The Caulk was 99p a tube Regards, Matt Sounds intriguing, Matt - any chance of a photo of the finished scene, please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 16, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2010 Just a quick one on this - I recently needed to create a Mud effect, or rather a Fuel contamination effect in a refuelling area (funnily enough!). I had nothing else to hand except Decorators Caulk. I had already ballasted the sidings concerned, then applied small amounts of the Caulk, at the same time smearing it into the ballast/sleepers with my finger until it looked satisfactory. It was then sprayed the correct colour. Might be a cheaper alternative? The Caulk was 99p a tube Regards, Matt Sounds intriguing, Matt - any chance of a photo of the finished scene, please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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