Copperclad, ply and rivet, glued up plastic -

[Coombe Barton]

I'm building all my own track - that's a given. I have plenty of C&L/EMGS plastic parts as I thought it would be the best way for me to proceed as i thought that this would look the best. Now I'm not so sure. Having looked closely at a number of layouts at exhibitions I'm getting not to be able to tell the difference.

 

From people with more experience (and yes, I can solder) which method do people recommend? And which type of construction is longer lasting, especially if your layout is portable? This is a list of advantages/disadvantages as I see them.

 

ABS sleepers/ chairs glued with butanone.

• Advantage: Totally complete from construction
• Advantage: Chairs do what they do on the prototype
• Advantage: Just needs painting
• Disadvantage: Not soldered so potentially less strong
• Disadvantage: When you have to solder connections. potentially melts the plastic (although pre-planning may help)

Copperclad

• Advantage: Soldered
• Advantage: Soldering in electrical connections doesn't melt things
• Disadvantage: Need to gap sleepers (and refil the gaps)
• Disadvantage: Needs cosmetic chairs
• Disadvantage: Rail in contact with the sleeper

Ply/Rivet

• Advantage: Soldered
• Advantage: Soldering in electrical connections doesn't melt things
• Advantage: (over copperclad) Gap between rail and sleeper
• Advantage: (over copperclad) easier to glue cosmetic chairs to ply rather than copperclad
• Advantage: Real wood
• Disadvantage: Needs more tools in construction (punch/rivet tool)
• Disadvantage: Needs cosmetic chairs

That's my list. I'm using copperclad at the moment to build some totally inset track, so the visual elements are out of it for that. I have a load of plastic material but could change given that the chairs can be made cosmetic. I've also been using plastic/glue and have found I get on with both. Haven't yet tried ply/rivet (not bought the tools)

 

Now I'm not into 'point kits' - I'll do my own. Then I can make my own cockups less expensively. I'm not into flexitrack either. You could say I like doing things the most difficult way (and before you ask, standing up in a hammock). I like modelling for the building (which is probably why not much is currently approaching 'finished'.)

 

SWMBO has been on at me to 'stop working and get on with your modelling' (I'll sell the secret). I'm planning purchases at my next set of shows (ExpoEM especially) so would appreciate your views.

[James]

Try a few test pieces and see which method you prefer working with - that's what I'd do.

 

A further method to consider eoulf be Copperclad with Masokits etched chairs - combined many advanatges of the various methods. The appearance may not be quite as sharp as mould chairs but once paint and weather on a layout, it should look good. Plus if it's good enough for John Hayes, then who are we mere mortals to argue?!

 

On Botanic Gardens, for the final trackwork on the scenic section we're using Ply sleepers/timbers and C&L chairs - no rivets at all. Seems very good and is quite strong too.

[woodbine]

Once you've built your own track you will see the difference at exhibitions. Not all the time of course, as there are many very fine layouts out there with plenty of other ways of attracting your admiration. But once you "know", you can't easily get the cat back in the bag!

As regards strength, plastic chairs are as strong as you need them to be, when you consider the likely stresses and strains.

The only potential movement would be up and down the line, which is eliminated by strategic anchoring(solder) at some point on each rail, and logically that would also be the electrical supply point.

What circumstances would you anticipate that would require the admittedly much greater, but largely redundant, strength of solder?

You haven't mentioned the fourth alternative, which I used on my current and only effort, of ply sleepers and plastic chairs. There is the extra effort of making sure each chair is properly glued down, (I held each down for a few seconds with tweezers till satisfied) but when it is, it's fine. And if you make a mistake you can slip a blade under the joint and try again, easier than with plastic sleepers or solder.

Cosmetically, by the time the ballast is down and the sleepers are painted, I don't think you can tell the sleepers apart.

[davknigh]

There is another way that partly combines the ply & rivet and glued methods and that is outlined in Ian Rice's book on finescale track. Basically it uses the riveted sleepers every 4th or 5th sleeper and the remainder have the plastic chair which may or may not be glued according to taste or tolerance for butanone . It has the advantage of adjustability especially in the area of points and also reduces the number of punched and riveted sleepers required. There is still the disadvantage of adding cosmetic chairs over the rivets but at least there are not as many, in fact, if you have a shelf type layout (as I do) you can get away with doing only the visible side if your conscience permits Don't EMGS have pre punched sleepers? I know that S4soc do and they can be a great timesaver and reduce the number of additional tools needed.

 

HTH

 

David

[hayfield]

There is something about the variation of colour and texture with stained sleepers that beats plastic and copperclad sleepers, I am at the moment building a turnout in plastic from an old K&L kit and have used brass shim to hold the V together. Ply with glued chairs gets my vote

[Donw]

Having tried nearly all including wood sleepers and plastic chairs with separate keys ( in 0) I would suggest ply sleepers with abs chairs glued down with butanone except two or three sleepers in a point where you would need to cut chairs anyway use a rivet for extra strength the cut and add the chairs as cosmetic.

If you like copperclad you can solder a piece of brass under the rail at each sleeper to simulate the chair base. The 2mm people have etched ones available perhaps someone does in 4mm.

I think the most important thing is that all the trackwork on a layout needs to be the same. Plastic chaired track and copperclad points stand out more than all plastic or all copperclad.

If I add track connections after laying I like to use a mirror and solder on the far side from the viewer.

 

 

Don

 

ps working in EM iused to drill the sleepers and just tap the rivet with a hammer - normal tools

[Coombe Barton]

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

So from the concensus so far - ply and some rivet. Plus glue. The tools I'm not worried about - just don't have punches yet (although drilling may be an option)

 

Do you stain your sleepers before glueing?

[Happy Hippo]

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

So from the concensus so far - ply and some rivet. Plus glue. The tools I'm not worried about - just don't have punches yet (although drilling may be an option)

 

Do you stain your sleepers before glueing?

Jonh,

 

In his book on building finescale track, Iain Rice doesn't mention using a punch and rivet tool. He just drills the sleepers and closes the rivets over an anvil. He also uses a combination method whereby he puts in a rivet every 5 sleepers or so and just uses plastic chairs butanoled to the sleepers in between the riveted ones. He stains his sleepers befor laying them. Pointwork is built using the same principle with ply and rivet construction used on 'strategic' sleepers.

 

I am in a similar situation to yourself and have amassed a variety of components from various suppliers prior to finding a best possible solution for my needs.

 

All my previous track building has been done using dogspikes and f/b rail or cast chairs and b/h rail, and has includes building multigauge pointwork, so I'm not worried about my abilities. I just want to find the best system to suit the techniques I know I'm competent with. If it wasn't for the fact that I needed 2 bolt chairs, I'd buy in the 3 bolt ready made sleeper bases, and learn to paint and weather the finished article. (Serves me right for wanting an ex GWR layout.)

 

Regards

 

Richard

[woodbine]

Regarding the "Ian Rice" mixed use of both rivets and butanone on ply, I also thought it sounded like the best of both worlds, so I started with a 12inch test piece.

The bit that turned me off was when I had to disguise the rivets with the half-chairs. No amount of 'melting' them on with the soldering iron produced a good result for me, and I found it was easier to just Dremel the offending half-rivets out of sight before I added the chairs.

Plus the fact that you have to get the rivets lined up in exactly the right alignment, and stick it all down before your rail goes on, leaves no room for error, whereas ABS sleepers on their own are a bit more forgiving, in the sense that you can be 1mm to the side (in a 36mm pre-grouping sleeper anyway) and often get away with it visually.

Summing it up, the butanone bit was a doddle, the rivets were a PITA. - So what did I need the rivets for?

What we could do with is an informed opinion as to hardiness from someone who has used butanone only track, on the exhibition circuit.

[Coombe Barton]

...I found it was easier to just Dremel the offending half-rivets out of sight before I added the chairs.

 

That's what the EMGS advise.

 

What we could do with is an informed opinion as to hardiness from someone who has used butanone only track, on the exhibition circuit.

 

That, I think, will be the decider. If it stands up there it'll work for me.

[Darwinian]

I've nearly completed building the track for my Gladlys layout using C&L components and the techniques described in the articles by Norman Soloman in MRJ. Mine are all plastic apart from a double slip which has copperclad where the Vs and knuckles are as I couldn't see how to get any purchase with cut up rail chairs. The copper clad sleepers are thicker to come up to the bottom of the rail height and I then added cosmetic half chairs with the baseplates filed down. It's a bit of a bodge but not that obvious in situ.

 

There was an article in MRJ looking at the strength of the bonds between plastic chairs and plastic or wood sleepers. I seem to recall in both cases it was the chair that failed first but took a remarkabely high load.

 

I'm happy with my efforts as they seem fairly robust once glued down and this is the first time I've built my own track apart from some rather crude efforts with SMP rail and copperclad back in the 80s.

 

I've got one final curved turnout still under construction but I've run out of plain chairs.

 

One big advantage for me was that, once I'd made up the V and switch rails, the individual turnouts and track formations only needed a few tools and glue so I could build them in the warmth of the lounge, with the rest of the family.

 

Adrian

[Donw]

The problem I found with all plastic was not the strength once built but the fact that the rail bits including the frog could slide slightly in the chairs. Once painted no problem but it was during construction my solution was to put a brass screw under the frog and solder the frog onto that. It will also work for other problem areas such as point rails in slips. painted black they are barely visible. However all plastic points once built were fine. Even when the travelling round shook some of the ballast loose. The chairs held to the sleepers.

Oh yes this was in 0 gauge.

Don

[hayfield]

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

So from the concensus so far - ply and some rivet. Plus glue. The tools I'm not worried about - just don't have punches yet (although drilling may be an option)

 

Do you stain your sleepers before glueing?

 

I think it is a good idea in case the solvent/glue you use puts a barrier against the stain from soaning in to the wood.

[Julia]

Don't know how applicable it is for what you are building, but for My H0e layout the points re built using copper clad board, and then for the plain track what I do is use a pcb sleeper for 1 in 5 of the sleepers, then using some wood (bass wood from the model shop), for the remaining sleepers. On all sleepers, a small (0.6mm) hole is drilled (by hand using a pin vice) at slight angle at the base of the rail/sleeper join. Finally, the bent corner of a staple that has been trimmed to fit, is inserted into the the hole. This gives something akin to a chair effect and looks nice (well IMHO).

 

Only downside, is with sleepers spaced every 9mm and two holes per sleeper, drilling them takes an age...

 

J

[PWSlack]

"Horses for courses".

 

Flatbottom in 4mm:

 

If using Colin Craig's components then copperclad sleepers will be found of advantage to attach the Macbeth, Elastic spikes and Pan11 baseplates, as they are designed for solder construction. The Pan11 comes as an etched spacer that lifts the rail off the sleeper, which is soldered, then the baseplates, which are pewter, are secured with glue. Allow 5h per foot of plain line.

 

Exactoscale's plastic moulded concrete sleepers with Pandrol clips simply thread onto the rail and assembly is pretty quick. It almost seems wrong to lay a heaped ballast shoulder over the sleeper ends the mouldings are so good.

 

Bullhead in 4mm:

 

It depends upon the chair selected. Plastic chairs will attach with solvent to either plastic or plywood sleepers. If whitemetal chairs are used, then solvent won't work, and glue is about the only way to plywood sleeper strip. However, to represent CS1 chairs on E1 concrete sleepers it is necessary to go plastic/solvent-weld/plastic.

 

Generic post-1923 non-GWR bullhead available over-the-counter is preferable on the basis of speed of laying, though to get it right the sleeper spacing needs adjustment before the cosmetic fishplates show up the incorrect spacing. However, generic bullhead cannot correctly represent pre-grouping track, and the plastic chairs and solvent-weld starts to become attractive.

 

The Brook-Smith ply-and-rivet system is still around and some still persevere with the system after firing up the Quattro.

 

Bullhead in 7mm:

Plastic chairs and timbers for junctions; generic post-1923 non-GWR bullhead over-the-counter plain line wins most times though be careful about the sleeper spacing before adding cosmetic fishplates..

 

[dymstocklr]

Having over the last 30 years made track with copperclad, then rivets, then glued plastic chairs with a couple of riveted sleepers at each end and finally fully glued I can tell you it's no-brainer! Go for plastic chairs fixed to ply sleepers with Butanone. (Buy plastic pipe cleaner from your local plumbers store - it's about a quarter of the price of bottles!) I say ply sleepers but in 4mm I doubt there's much difference in appearance between ply and plastic sleepers but it does show in 7mm. As I posted on a different part of the forum a couple of days ago the Exeter O gauge group layout had over a 100 yards of track and 20 odd points made by this method and in 10 years I can't recall a single failure. As has already been said you do need a couplee of copperclad or rivetted ply sleepers at the crossing - but otherwise solvent is fine.

Bill

[hayfield]

I echoed this advice last week but after getting up close to a couple of layouts at Watford on Sunday (well I was taking the tea and coffee to the stands) It boils down to the standard of the finishing.

 

On the Gas Works layout (7mm) I said the wooden sleepers look fantastic, only to be told they were plastic. And on the S gauge layout I asked what type of track construction as I could not see any gaps in the sleepers, onl;y to be told they were copperclad and a couple of small areas were pointed out where the gaps were not filled flat.

 

The tallented artist can fool the eye from a distance. Chaired track does look better, however as far as the sleepers go its all in the finish

[wagonman]

Ply and rivet is definitely the strongest method (and you only need a drill and a hammer) but there is a problem trying to get the rail canted at the correct 1:20 angle – the plastic chairs do that for you automatically, but take care with the track gauges.

 

When I finally get round to laying the track on Colerne I'll be using ply sleepers with plastic chairs, with rivets only where absolutely necessary, for the mainline and loop (and stripwood and bridge rail for the siding, but that's another story).

[mike morley]

One problem I've had with the Iain Rice "glued with the occasional rivetted at key points" method that no one else appears to have mentioned is that the rivet heads are somewhat lower than the plastic chairs. If, like I do, you slide the plastic chairs away from the rivetted sleepers before applying the soldering iron to prevent melting them it can be difficult to slide them back into position afterwards. It can also be a serious pain to apply cosmetic chairs to the rivets afterwards.

[Coombe Barton]

Thanks for all the replies. Some experimentation is going ahead, and some strength tests.

[Russ (mines a pint)]

My first home made track was of PCB points & solder, in 4mm, and I then tried ply (glued - not with rivets) and that is the route I would take if in 4mm again, its down to individual feeling about chairs. I found the solder method much easier, and more easily adjustable- but at least if you do the ply and chairs glued method they are more seperable than plastic sleepers and look better IMHO.

 

individual chairs are immensely fiddly though, I'd just do that for the points then use the likes of exactoscale bases, they are very good looking. have you considered them?

 

You dont mention whether this is the first venture into home made track, if it is I would recommend the bases (for plain track)as they prevent alot of frustration - its easy to break chairs, put them on the wrong way round and generally batter your soul- when you talk to many trackbuilders at exhibitions recommend the bases for plain track as its quick and easy, save the hassle for the points where you really need it!