NGS Stove R

[romley midland]

I also don't think it is fair to call this a foulup. All we have are a couple of pictures that look like the roof colour may be a bit lighter than expected. Hardly the end of the world even if it turns out to be the case (and not just an artifact of flash, monitor brightness etc). I am still looking forward to receiving mine from the NGS (all 5 of the beauties ). Hopefully they will match the Dapol stock they will be running alongside. If not I am sure it is nothing a little bit of paint cannot disguise.

 

To be fair, i think it is most certainly a 'foulup' on dapols part, those who were involved with the project have stated (on the N gauge yahoo group if not here) that the specification given to Dapol was for the roofs to be the same colour as their Gresley stock, i have both the maroon and crimson/cream versions and neither are anywhere near as light as the stoves, and the LNER versions have white roofs, the stove roofs aren't white either.

So, whatever shade of grey is 'correct' on the real thing, the fact is that Dapol were commissioned to produce a product, the roof of which was specified to be the same as their Gresley Coaches, which it is not, so the supplied product is not meet the spec ordered!

 

I have one other observation regards the stove, a friend purchased a crimson/cream version which we compared with the farish stanier, ok the colour shades aren't the same, this is expected but it would have been nice if the blocks of colour were more proportional to each other, the Dapol livery has much thicker crimson bands, both above and below the cream, which i think is more noticeable than the different shades.

 

Having said all of this i don't have a crimson/cream version and don't intend on purchasing one, so this doesn't affect me and is just an observation, remember its the little details that make a great model!

And i'm more than happy to repaint the roof's of mine, in fact i've already started on the first! I was merely stating the facts to try and end the to and fro of whos wrong and whos right!

 

Cheers, Richard

[coachmann]

I don't ever recall seeing a photo of the real Stove in blood & custard livery, not that this means anything in itself. However, if any were given this livery, the waist would be painted at the same height as corridor stock and not up to the windows. (Windows on a Stove are the same as on non-corridor stock).

 

Because of their ability to absorb impact forces in the event of an accident, I high incidence of 1920s-built 'all-steel' 50ft Parcels vans were given blood & custard with a waist line to match mainline corridor stock.

[DapolDave]

Dear Richard,

 

"to be fair" i dont think you should be calling it a 'foul up' on Dapol's behalf without full knowledge of the facts.

 

For what it's worth the StoveR liveries were all signed off on by the NGS after complete, painted samples were presented to all concerned.

 

I hope this clears the matter up for everyone.

 

cheers

Dave

 

 

 

 

To be fair, i think it is most certainly a 'foulup' on dapols part, those who were involved with the project have stated (on the N gauge yahoo group if not here) that the specification given to Dapol was for the roofs to be the same colour as their Gresley stock, i have both the maroon and crimson/cream versions and neither are anywhere near as light as the stoves, and the LNER versions have white roofs, the stove roofs aren't white either.

So, whatever shade of grey is 'correct' on the real thing, the fact is that Dapol were commissioned to produce a product, the roof of which was specified to be the same as their Gresley Coaches, which it is not, so the supplied product is not meet the spec ordered!

 

I have one other observation regards the stove, a friend purchased a crimson/cream version which we compared with the farish stanier, ok the colour shades aren't the same, this is expected but it would have been nice if the blocks of colour were more proportional to each other, the Dapol livery has much thicker crimson bands, both above and below the cream, which i think is more noticeable than the different shades.

 

Having said all of this i don't have a crimson/cream version and don't intend on purchasing one, so this doesn't affect me and is just an observation, remember its the little details that make a great model!

And i'm more than happy to repaint the roof's of mine, in fact i've already started on the first! I was merely stating the facts to try and end the to and fro of whos wrong and whos right!

 

Cheers, Richard

[Karhedron]

I have one other observation regards the stove, a friend purchased a crimson/cream version which we compared with the farish stanier, ok the colour shades aren't the same, this is expected but it would have been nice if the blocks of colour were more proportional to each other, the Dapol livery has much thicker crimson bands, both above and below the cream, which i think is more noticeable than the different shades.

I am not sure if Crimson and Cream was used much on the real thing in the 50s. Apparently most Stoves were painted in plain Crimson although a few may have been C&C. I believe the NGS C&C example is based on a preserved example and thus carries the livery accurately based on that. Whether this is what the C&C Stoves carried in the 50s (if there actually were any), I do not know.

[Steven B]

That comes across as rather patronising, Steven, if you don't mind me saying so. One of the main justifications for the NGS foray into RTR was that you would get a vehicle ready to use straight from the box, with no painting required. Of course it's possible to repaint the roof, but the point is, should you have to on a brand new vehicle just to get something that looks prototypically correct? Having the basic livery right on a RTR model is the starting point, isn't it?

 

Just because people are either happy to accept it as-is, or happy to repaint it, doesn't make the error right in the first place. Can you answer one simple question - is the roof colour on the NGS Stove R correct? I've yet to come across anyone, either on here or the Yahoo! group who actually asserts that to be the case.

 

I can only appologise if my message came across as being patronising. It certainly wasn't ment that way.

 

I don't know if the roof on the StoveR is the correct colour - I doubt anyone can be 100% sure. The only one I've ever seen in colour is a preserved example on the East Lancs (which was maroon). Even where colour photos of the Stove R do exists the state of the wagon and the quality of the film will have a big impact on what colour it appears to be. I think the simple answer is that there is no simple answer.

as to what colour it should be.

 

I do still think that it's more productive (and satisfying) to fix the problem than it is to grumble about it on the internet. There isn't a RTR model been produced that is 100% perfect and the colour of the roof (and adding the frosted toilet window) is a lot easier to do than adding bits of plasticard to correct the roof of a class 24 for example.

 

Just my 2p's worth. You are of course free to disagree!

 

Happy modelling,

 

Steven B.

[Pyewipe Jct]

I do still think that it's more productive (and satisfying) to fix the problem than it is to grumble about it on the internet. There isn't a RTR model been produced that is 100% perfect and the colour of the roof (and adding the frosted toilet window) is a lot easier to do than adding bits of plasticard to correct the roof of a class 24 for example.

 

Steven B.

 

Hello Steven, we all have our own point of view, of course, but the problem I have with that approach is that if modellers basically say 'we're grateful for anything you produce, and if there are errors, then don't worry, we'll fix them ourselves', then what incentive is there for a manufacturer to get things right in the first place? If we decide that we will accept anything, warts and all, and never raise a complaint, then we end up with the sort of sycophantic reviewing that allowed the Farish 56 to go unchallenged for years, and yes, the eulogising that's going on at present about the Farish 24, which, while it's a nice model, is beset by a number of errors that simply should not be there.

 

'N' is increasingly trying to position itself as a serious alternative to 'OO', but seems to want to avoid the same level of scrutiny applied to the larger scales. Instead, dodgy liveries go unchallenged, dimensional mistakes are brushed under the carpet of 'normal viewing distance', and poor-running is accepted as a fact of 'N' life. In 'OO', where liveries have been rendered incorrectly, recalls and revisions have been made, where bodies are wrong, re-tooling has been undertaken, and where poor running has affected locos, then replacement chassis have been made available - all often as a result of pressure from consumers. I simply don't see that level of maturity in 'N' yet (Ixion, excepted), possibly because manufacturers know that very few people WILL grumble about the mistakes.

 

An interesting comparison will come when (or is it still if?) the 4mm version of the Stove R is released - I wonder what colour the roof will be?

 

 

Kevin

[Bob Reid]

..............An interesting comparison will come when (or is it still if?) the 4mm version of the Stove R is released - I wonder what colour the roof will be?

Kevin

 

You can be 97% sure it won't be white. Hopefully someone from the NGS will step up an explain the issue and put it to bed - this is not a matter of apportioning blaming, just to determine how they arrived at that colour as opposed to the correct one. I could understand if folk were batting back and forward over one shade of grey over another, and how ridiculous that might be however what I can't understand is defence of such an obvious error, albeit one that can be easily rectified should an owner choose to.

[romley midland]

Dear Richard,

 

"to be fair" i dont think you should be calling it a 'foul up' on Dapol's behalf without full knowledge of the facts.

 

For what it's worth the StoveR liveries were all signed off on by the NGS after complete, painted samples were presented to all concerned.

 

I hope this clears the matter up for everyone.

 

cheers

Dave

 

Dave,

 

Thanks for the clarification, my comments were based on those made on the N yahoo group, by either officers of the NGS or others with input into the project, which i took to be fact, although it would appear there has been some discrepancies here, so for this i can only apologise.

 

 

 

An interesting comparison will come when (or is it still if?) the 4mm version of the Stove R is released - I wonder what colour the roof will be?

 

 

Kevin

 

Having been in contact with Mike Wild, i believe, should they go ahead with the project, they will definately be specifying a darker roof.

 

cheers, Richard

[Revolution Ben]

'N' is increasingly trying to position itself as a serious alternative to 'OO', but seems to want to avoid the same level of scrutiny applied to the larger scales. Instead, dodgy liveries go unchallenged, dimensional mistakes are brushed under the carpet of 'normal viewing distance', and poor-running is accepted as a fact of 'N' life. In 'OO', where liveries have been rendered incorrectly, recalls and revisions have been made, where bodies are wrong, re-tooling has been undertaken, and where poor running has affected locos, then replacement chassis have been made available - all often as a result of pressure from consumers. I simply don't see that level of maturity in 'N' yet (Ixion, excepted), possibly because manufacturers know that very few people WILL grumble about the mistakes.

 

Kevin

 

Hello Kevin,

 

Although I only write reviews in one magazine, and only of modern prototypes, I do read other reviews and as far as I can see where models are wrong then these errors are pointed out. And poor running is commented upon where it is encountered (though increasingly rarely) and locomotive models have dimensional tables adjacent to the review so the reader can assess the accuracy of the model.

 

The last obvious error was the ride-height issue on the Farish 47s which has been corrected (with considerable retooling) on the new versions.

 

I would hope that the improved bogies will be available to purchase as spares to enable us to improve the earlier versions, but a ride-height issue is not on a par with a chassis that won't actually move (Clayton) so is not a warranty issue in my mind.

 

And while the Class 24 roof panels are a shame, in my opinion it is less important in N than in OO because in N the focus is less on individual superdetailed items of stock (though this is very nice) but on the total "railway in the landscape."

 

This is what makes N different to OO - my point being that N is holding itself up as offering an "different experience" to OO - not the "same experience, smaller."

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[grahame]

If we decide that we will accept anything, warts and all, and never raise a complaint, then we end up with the sort of sycophantic reviewing that allowed the Farish 56 to go unchallenged for years, and yes, the eulogising that's going on at present about the Farish 24, which, while it's a nice model, is beset by a number of errors that simply should not be there.

 

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that errors on a new model should never be pointed out and that certainly doesn't happen. Just read through the various magazine reviews and internet forums - there is plenty of comment on accuracy and adherance to fidelity. The class 56 was castigated and since then every new model is put under the spotlight and scrutinised in every detail.

 

However, the point is that some 'errors' need to be put in to perspective with regard to the scale - it's no good getting worked up over that the roof colour could possibly be slightly the wrong shade when those who commissioned it signed it off from the manufacturer as satisfactory while there are other more difficult to remedy issues around. Certainly there is little gain in claiming or intimating that someone has fouled up or that it is such a terribly serious error that it needs a full product recall. I'm sure that the NGS model will still stand on its own and be a success as it is.

 

I also agree with Ben with regards to his comments that N gauge is not offering the same experience or advantages as OO and therefore there is little point in trying to make the issue on how the scale is setting itself up as a serious alternative and therefore should accept the same level of scrutiny. N gauge maybe in competition with OO but its features and benefits are different, and so are the details.

 

G.

[bmthtrains - David]

I do think it is a shame this review of the Stove has turned into a sort of 'why do N gaugers not accept criticism' battle. The plain fact of the matter is that if you dont like a detail or think a model isn't accurate, then don't buy it.

 

Yes, in OO, a slightly wrong roof in a loco (the 24) would cause much complaints, and as with I think the Bachmann 47 or something a few years back, they learn and change the profile on later releases.

 

In N though, it really is different. Until recently, we have had to put up with hideously inaccurate badly running models, and now here we are with a society commissioning a ready to run model to an exceptionally high standard - just for its members! This is an incredible situation that nobody could have predicted even a few years ago. If the roof colour is considered to be slightly off on one particular release, it still doesnt detract from the achievement.

 

In OO, the main issue is getting higher quality models of previous releases (a new HST for example), that can be picked at as it is supposed to be a huge improvement over what came before. In N, what you need to remember is that we have have nothing before this - the explosion in models, and their quality is not replacing things, it is entirey new, so the very fact the Stove is available as a RTR model means a worry over its colour is of far less importance than if it has been an upgraded model that had failed to meet expectations.

 

David

[Steven B]

Just like the other scales, N Gauge has had, and continues to have it's problems. I don't think that N Gaugers are unwilling to accept critisism, but we are perhaps a bit more defensive as a minority scale; You get similar responces from 4mm modellers on the OO/EM/P4 debate and from modellers in general on the DC/DCC debate. Unfortunatly email/message boards like this one makes it harder to put the human touch in to the discussion.

 

Grahame get's it right when he writes "However, the point is that some 'errors' need to be put in to perspective with regard to the scale".

 

Issues like the overscale Ixion Manor and the Farish Class 56 cab roof are clear error that aren't easy for the average modeller to fix and where errors like this then grumbling is justified. Something like the roof colour of the Stove R or the type of OHLE warning stickers on a model are easier to fix, and so the grumbles are perhaps less easy to justify in the larger scheme of things. From my point of view the missing frosted toilet window on the Stove R is a bigger issue than a roof colour that has perhaps been matched from a B&W photo.

 

There are examples where manufacturers have re-visited new models. The Ixion Manor is a good example of how things should be done but Dapol have also held back models whilst correcting livery errors (Class 73) and the new Farish 47 is a big improvement on the last new version.

 

Regardless of your point of view I think we can all agree that it says alot about the increasing popularity of N Gauge and the ability of the N Gauge Society to get this project up and running. Lets hope it continues.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[nebnoswal]

My Stove??™s arrived down under today. While I think it was great that the NGS did them, the roofs seem to attracting the most critism. I only got the LMS crimson and BR Maroon, but even these roofs look wrong. When the LMS livery is compared against one of the new Farish Stanier coaches, very is a vast contrast in the crimson. And even when compared agains the colour livery plates in the LMs coaching stock there is a difference. Admittedly, yes, even in real life there would of been variations in the actual colour of crimson lake due to age, weathering, locations, workshop and who made up the paint batch on the day a particular coach was painted.

 

For the BR variant, whilst the maroon looks ok, the roof grey is too light. In the pic I??™ve compared against a new Farish BR Mk1, and Dapol Maroon Collet and Gresley. Surely the roof should be closer to the existing coaches already produced by Dapol.

 

Anyway, thats my 2 bob's worth. I'm happy with them.

[Steven B]

My Stove??™s arrived down under today. While I think it was great that the NGS did them, the roofs seem to attracting the most critism. I only got the LMS crimson and BR Maroon, but even these roofs look wrong. When the LMS livery is compared against one of the new Farish Stanier coaches, very is a vast contrast in the crimson. And even when compared agains the colour livery plates in the LMs coaching stock there is a difference. Admittedly, yes, even in real life there would of been variations in the actual colour of crimson lake due to age, weathering, locations, workshop and who made up the paint batch on the day a particular coach was painted.

 

Scale colour! With the colour sample you have you're also comparing a gloss finish to an almost matt finish. It's not too far off though.

 

As you say the chances of two coaches being exactly the same colour is slim. Not even the preserved railways can manage it. The following photos were take on the Severn Valley a few years ago:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Happy modelling,

 

Steven B

[coachmann]

I imagine the unrelated preservation movements are a different ballgame to when Masons supplied transport paint to British Railways paintshops in the 1950's and 60's.

[Butler Henderson]

I remember being told that one supplier of GW green paint to the preservation movement had 18 different shades of GW green as one set of preservationists diagreed with the original colour they had provided, then other set disgreed again with either and so it went on.

[Steven B]

I imagine the unrelated preservation movements are a different ballgame to when Masons supplied transport paint to British Railways paintshops in the 1950's and 60's.

 

 

Not necessarily. Weren't most pre-spray painted liveries done using paint made up from pigment added to a carrier medium? I think this was how the colout for the streamlined Dutchess was done.

 

All that would be needed is a bit more pigment (last dregs of the bag/tin) or a bit less pigment (not quite enough, not worth opening a new tin) and the colour would be different. Similarly the number of coats of varnish applied would have an impact.

 

And that's before you take in to account fading, weathering etc.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[coachmann]

I corresponded with the paint suppliers while David Jenkinson was at the NRM. They had recipes going back many years and so paint was supplied to a controlled spec/menu. They supplied me with dry samples of LNER loco green, the late NER loco green and a beautifully mounted example of LNWR coach plum, flake white and the chrome yellow & white lining.

 

Larry G.

[grahame]

This photo of the NGS Stove, that I've found in my files, may be of interest and/or use to members;

 

 

 

G.

[Karhedron]

Is the roof easy to remove? If so then a respray should be a very simple job indeed.

 

I am fortunate in that I plan to run mine on milk trains so it will not be running next to other passenger stock so the differences in roof colours will not really be an issue even if I do no repaint.

[romley midland]

Is the roof easy to remove? If so then a respray should be a very simple job indeed.

 

I am fortunate in that I plan to run mine on milk trains so it will not be running next to other passenger stock so the differences in roof colours will not really be an issue even if I do no repaint.

 

The roof and body are one piece.

 

I've brush painted mine, its quite easy as the 'lips' on the roof help to prevent you painting the sides by accident!

 

Cheers, Richard

[Preservation Modeller]

I don't collect N personally, but I do think that those Stoves look very nice! The LMS is my favourite!