Newhaven Harbour

[sunshine coast]

Colin,

 

Excellent modeling and very evocative ....having been living in Polegate and Eastbourne for the past 50 yrs...Ouch !! and Eden Park /Beckenham as a child,the EMUs are very much a part of my life and it looks like from now onwards with RTR types available there will be hopefully an increase in 3rd rail modeling ...

 

I shall follow thread this with interest .... B)

 

Regards Trevor ....

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin,

 

I don't know if this helps with your colour question, but these units are owned by our layout C.M.E. and are authentic colour and weathering for the 1960's on the Sussex lines runs.

 

Kev

 

All photos used with permission of Aryan Snowsill

 

 

Hi there Kev. Thanks for the input on the livery. I have had another look on the Southern Electric Group website and viewed again the picture upon which I based my livery. The unit shown is 2008 with a late BR crest at Liss station. It looks pretty close to the shade I used. Don't forget that I am modelling the 70's when the remaining 2 BILs had had thier last repaint (some even in BR blue with full yellow ends). To compound the debate, it is well known that the paint also faded after repeated visits to the washing facilities. It seems as though the shade of green applied got darker as the 1960's went on. There are more pictures on www.southern.net.

[Colin parks]

Here are a few more pictures of areas of the layout.

The substation is very difficult to photograph with layout in its present position. I could not be sure of the exact siting of the transformers on the real one because the Newhaven port security officials would not let me near it! The real substation is now bereft of any external switch gear I don't know if it has been upgraded with some kind of solid-state switching or become disused.

 

The signal box is based on the one at Newhaven Harbour. I believe that it is a Saxby and Farmer design. The walkway around the front and sides was added later than the 1970's - oops!. The white shed to the right hand side is a lamp hut - the prototype still has the lamps and oil in there!

 

I shall add a picture of the real thing taken in 2006 to give an idea of the location. The curious gap in the walkway was there to allow space for a signal post - perhaps a banner repeater signal? Behind the box is the Transmanche ferry.

 

The JCB is situated at the 'curved' sidings. Behind the security fence is the line to the 'Beach Sidings' and banana depot - off-scene on the model and really the track leads to the back of the traverser.

Now come anyone. is the JCB the wrong shade of yellow?!!!!

[zarniwhoop]

Dear Pernickety all of you!

 

The stations in the Newhaven area did not receive the new BR corporate style signs until the summer of ' 76. I know this because I worked across the road from Newhaven Harbour at that time and saw the progress every day. This was also the case at Newhaven Town station. ... The paintwork was also changed at this time - so there!

 

Fair enough, I can't argue with someone who was there and noted the details!

 

With regard to the shade of green on the 2 BIL, it said 'Late EMU Green' on the Precision Paints' tin. If you look on the internet, particularly on the Southern 'E' Group website I believe, there are plenty of colour photos of units in this shade. I used to travel on 2 BILs in the late 60's and it's pretty much the green I can remember. Some 2 BILs ran until withdrawal in 1970-71 in green, I admit most had full yellow ends by then but that was not the case with all of them. Other units were given the all-over blue with full yellow end livery. However, Unit 2034 is documented as being one of the last of nine 2 BILs to remain in service and is correct for the Kirk kit, so that's as close as I can get to authenticity at the moment!

 

On my monitor, it looks far too dark and drab IMHO - rather like the units on that nice new layout at Warley this year. Personally, I don't trust *any* of the paint manufacturers to get everything right. Then again, green is a strange colour to photograph. For phoenix, I think I prefer "BR Southern Electric Stock Green" (P124). I've got a brush-painted test strip somewhere, but at the moment I've mislaid it.

 

??en

[Colin parks]

Fair enough, I can't argue with someone who was there and noted the details!

 

 

 

On my monitor, it looks far too dark and drab IMHO - rather like the units on that nice new layout at Warley this year. Personally, I don't trust *any* of the paint manufacturers to get everything right. Then again, green is a strange colour to photograph. For phoenix, I think I prefer "BR Southern Electric Stock Green" (P124). I've got a brush-painted test strip somewhere, but at the moment I've mislaid it.

 

??en

 

Thanks Ken, I really think I'm confused by the whole debate on this 2 BIL colour now. I've looked again on the internet at the photos of the 'dark' prototypes and it's certainly darker than those model pics posted yesterday. There is also a leaflet enclosed with the Bachmann 4 CEP published by the EPB Preservation Group which shows both an EPB and a 4 CEP in what could only be called 'dark green'. Also what can we say about the Unit photographed at Liss on the Southern Electric Group website?

I must admit when I posted the picture of the 2 BIL I had no idea there would be so much interest! I had thought that I would be taken to task over the inaccuracy of the track plan of the layout or the buildings.

regards,

 

Colin

[shanks522]

Fantastic layout would love to see more photo's.

 

Graham.

[zarniwhoop]

Thanks Ken, I really think I'm confused by the whole debate on this 2 BIL colour now. I've looked again on the internet at the photos of the 'dark' prototypes and it's certainly darker than those model pics posted yesterday. There is also a leaflet enclosed with the Bachmann 4 CEP published by the EPB Preservation Group which shows both an EPB and a 4 CEP in what could only be called 'dark green'. Also what can we say about the Unit photographed at Liss on the Southern Electric Group website?

I must admit when I posted the picture of the 2 BIL I had no idea there would be so much interest! I had thought that I would be taken to task over the inaccuracy of the track plan of the layout or the buildings.

regards,

 

Colin

 

Colin, I think the major problem is photo-technology! I'll agree that some photos of BR-standard units in books look extremely dark. Take a moment to look at semgonline 2bil_04 - the two top pics (1986) are both very dark and both different, the bottom (1991) is rather faded but looks more like what I remember. See also the earlier pages in that gallery for examples of the possible variation - again, I believe some of them are realistic and others aren't!

 

If you are happy wih the colour, then it is good. It is said that we all see colours differently, so perhaps my colour vision (or the setup of my monitor) is sufficiently unusual that I'm picking at things nobody else sees. I only commented on the 2-BIL because I thought the green of the nameboards was excellent :-)

 

I know nothing about the prototype's track plan, and anyway we all have to compromise to get things into the available space. As to the buildings, they certainly look like something from this area. I've been really pleased to see this, please disregard my comments when they are not helpful!

 

??en

[Chivers Finelines]

Thanks for the comments Matt! The station canopy is scratch built - all the structures on the are except for a Ratio platelayers' hut.

 

Thanks for that. I must say it looks very nice indeed, all the buildings do.

[sunshine coast]

Colin ,

 

to get away from the never ending and never to be resolved debate about colour ,

your modeling of the sub-station is brilliant , it has captured the essence of the utilitarian railway architecture. The rendition of the brickwork and the ashfelt covered concrete slab roof are very well done ,the JCB just sat ,and the concrete post and chain link fencing are very well observed and modeled ....it is all combining with the quality of the rolling stock to produce a very balanced ,finely done layout ...

 

 

Regards Trevor....

[Colin parks]

Colin, I think the major problem is photo-technology! I'll agree that some photos of BR-standard units in books look extremely dark. Take a moment to look at semgonline 2bil_04 - the two top pics (1986) are both very dark and both different, the bottom (1991) is rather faded but looks more like what I remember. See also the earlier pages in that gallery for examples of the possible variation - again, I believe some of them are realistic and others aren't!

 

If you are happy wih the colour, then it is good. It is said that we all see colours differently, so perhaps my colour vision (or the setup of my monitor) is sufficiently unusual that I'm picking at things nobody else sees. I only commented on the 2-BIL because I thought the green of the nameboards was excellent :-)

 

I know nothing about the prototype's track plan, and anyway we all have to compromise to get things into the available space. As to the buildings, they certainly look like something from this area. I've been really pleased to see this, please disregard my comments when they are not helpful!

 

??en

Dear Ken, I've had a look at that link - seen those photos! The photo of the 4 CEP that I mentioned is by the late R C Riley. I'm not taking all too personally though and thanks for the comments you have made. I live so far from any other modellers of the same interest (apart from Old Lugger when he's here) any feedback is good to keep me up to scratch!

P.S. Just wait until you see the pictures of my Grampus wagons - some with the pale green flash which is also a talking point!

[Colin parks]

Colin ,

 

to get away from the never ending and never to be resolved debate about colour ,

your modeling of the sub-station is brilliant , it has captured the essence of the utilitarian railway architecture. The rendition of the brickwork and the ashfelt covered concrete slab roof are very well done ,the JCB just sat ,and the concrete post and chain link fencing are very well observed and modeled ....it is all combining with the quality of the rolling stock to produce a very balanced ,finely done layout ...

 

 

Regards Trevor....

 

Hello Trevor, Thanks for the comments. I shall be concentrating on more images of the stock when I get the chance.

The layout was, in truth, only built so I could run trains of departmental wagons! The rest of the modelling just serves to give the trains a place to run that looked convincing - I got a bit carried away!

The brickwork on the substation is from the Wills range by the way. The insulators are Sommerfeld and the rest is plastic card. The JCB is the old Dapol/Airfix kit which looks better when fitted with flush glazing.

[Colin parks]

 

I thought I'd add this photo of the far end of the layout as it runs into the traverser. The entrance to which is not all that visible when viewed in the full set up position. This shot gives all the Southern Region clues: the signal, platelayers hut, third rail and so on.

The wagon in view is a Sludge wagon. These were used to take away waste from loco depot water-softening plants (as far as I am aware).

The model has a scratch-built body and Parkside chassis. Would anyone know if the compartments are correct - I could not see inside the one that turned up in Newhaven (1974). It was certainly being used by the engineers for carrying spoil - perhaps this was its final journey. A great number of coaches and wagons were scrapped at Newhaven by the North Quay/goods yard. I'm not sure what had happened to the wagon that I saw, it was on its own some way from all the other stock so perhaps it suffered some kind of failure - or awaited the cutting torch. This is the role that my model plays, stuck down the end of the headshunt!

The photo is again by permission of Martin Dalling.

[Colin parks]

At last! - a ballast train has arrived in the sidings. The third wagon from the right is an ex SR 'Ling' in amongst the Grampus wagons (which were far more numerous) the sixth wagon is a rare bird - a Bulleid designed but BR built 'Lamprey'. In the siding behind is an SR brake van. These vans were commonly used on ballast train workings, often with one at each end of the train to avoid the need to do any shunting at the work site. This train would have been loaded with spoil (AKA 'slag ballast') to be dumped at the beach sidings where there were some large tidal pools to be filled in. (The engineers' trains were called ballast trains except when loaded with fresh ballast - then they were called 'stone trains').

 

The train will be shunted down the back line by an 08 shunter once the Class 73 has drawn forward. The brake van next to the loco is an ex SECR 'Dance Hall' van much loved by the engineers for their spacious guard's compartments. Some of these vans lasted into the 1990's, having been converted to mess vans by having their verandahs filled in.

 

That diamond shaped sign in front of the train is a 'coasting board' to tell the motorman where he could cut the power to his EMU and coast the train. This sign, amusingly and prototypically, is situated just in the right place for the layout operator to cut the power and let the train roll into the station using the inertia function programmed into its DDC chip. (I don't think I've mentioned that the layout is DDC operated before).

[P.C.M]

Hi Colin,

Thanks for posting more pics, I really like this layout, such attention to detail and the point rodding is superb. I am thinking you will have some nice SR ballast and spoil wagons in use, there are a few nice kits that have been released in the last couple of years.

 

Happy New Year, Cheers Peter,

[Northpoint]

Excellent!

 

Keep it coming. :icon_thumbsup2:

[Guest oldlugger]

Looking great Colin! The substation is particularly convincing - you can almost hear the hum from the transformers!

 

Cheers

Simon

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin,

Thanks for posting more pics, I really like this layout, such attention to detail and the point rodding is superb. I am thinking you will have some nice SR ballast and spoil wagons in use, there are a few nice kits that have been released in the last couple of years.

 

Happy New Year, Cheers Peter,

 

Hello Peter,

 

You're right about the kits. In the last five years or so, just about all the departmental wagons anyone could wish for have been made available for the Southern Region modeller: A re-tooled Grampus from Parkside (although I wish it was available as unfitted without having to buy the unfitted chassis kit too); Chivers have produced the Lamprey, Ling & Tunny - wagon kits I never thought to see (and I was just about to scratch build some examples of); Cambrian produced the SECR 'Dance-Hall' brake van and Hornby released their super detail SR van C (much used as storage vans in departmental use); not to mention Sealions, Seacows et al.

I also have ten Dogfish wagons, two Heljan ones and eight from Cambrian kits (Dogfish were used on the Southern Region although I think they all had 'flared' side chutes to discharge past the third rail). Two of these I have modelled with raised sides and ends on the hopper to carry'slag ballast'.

 

I have to confess one thing that does not show up in the photos: The point rodding is round! I used recycled .016" gutiar strings set in MSE cast whitemetal stools.

While not totally correct, the rodding is very resilient and will never 'sag'. I'm sure that square section rodding is available but I'm not sure if it would be strong enough in such a small size. Another confession is that there should be double the number of rods etc. as the points should be interlocked (as at the real location).

The ground frame as seen in the first 'post' is modelled on the one at Aberystwyth station in mid Wales! There is a ground frame in the old port sidings at Newhaven, it's there in the brambles - but with port security as it is I could not get a good look at it.

All the best,

 

Colin

[dseagull]

This is excellent, Colin! - Lived in Hailsham for 25 years, so know the area well.

 

Echoing the Substation comments - really is an excellent bit of modelling.

[Worsdell forever]

Excellent layout and modelling, always nice to see third rail, even if it is southern!

 

Keep the photos coming.

[paulr1949]

Hello Colin

 

Thanks for sharing this, it's very interesting: I too like to see BR(S) electrics, although I don't model them. I do like the 2-HAP.

 

During the late 70's the night Newhaven boat train was 12-CEP (although rarely needed 12 coaches!). The day train I believe was a 4-CIG detached/attached at Lewes from/to a Vic-Hastings train.

 

Could I just point out one thing which I think is probably incorrect for 1974 - signal numberplates were not generally white numbers on black at that time, they were black "old style" lettering on white plates. If I remember correctly, London Bridge was the first to use them (started 1973-4, completed 1976). I would be very surprised to find that Newhaven harbour did at that time. Up until relatively recently most areas where there was the occasional colour light signal in an otherwise semaphore area would not have had signals numbered on the post anyway. I can't remember whether Newhaven Harbour had a "Cxx" prefix allocated, and I can't lay my hands on my booklet "List of signalboxes and opening times" at the moment. I think the "NH" prefgix dates from the singling of Seaford-Newhaven when the box took over that section.

 

Looking forward to seeing some more photos

[Colin parks]

Hello Colin

 

Thanks for sharing this, it's very interesting: I too like to see BR(S) electrics, although I don't model them. I do like the 2-HAP.

 

During the late 70's the night Newhaven boat train was 12-CEP (although rarely needed 12 coaches!). The day train I believe was a 4-CIG detached/attached at Lewes from/to a Vic-Hastings train.

 

Could I just point out one thing which I think is probably incorrect for 1974 - signal numberplates were not generally white numbers on black at that time, they were black "old style" lettering on white plates. If I remember correctly, London Bridge was the first to use them (started 1973-4, completed 1976). I would be very surprised to find that Newhaven harbour did at that time. Up until relatively recently most areas where there was the occasional colour light signal in an otherwise semaphore area would not have had signals numbered on the post anyway. I can't remember whether Newhaven Harbour had a "Cxx" prefix allocated, and I can't lay my hands on my booklet "List of signalboxes and opening times" at the moment. I think the "NH" prefgix dates from the singling of Seaford-Newhaven when the box took over that section.

 

Looking forward to seeing some more photos

Dear Paul,

Many thanks for the interesting information on signalling and the boat train formations. I'm going to hold my hands up and confess that I just guessed about signal numbers! I had seen a picture on the internet featuring a 2 HAP in all blue livery on the singled section of line to Seaford and presumed that it was from the 70's due to the clothing style of two boys waving at the train. I will not assume anything in future!

The signals will be altered in due course. I must say that information and photos of the Newhaven area in the 70's is very hard to find.

Your recollections of Newhaven boat train formations match those of Oldddudders the other day. Thankyou for that. Now I can publish some pictures of the 4 CEP without feeling guilty about not knowing if it was correct.

It's even better to know is that the poor old boat train consisted of just one 4-car unit at times. As I said originally, the layout is only an impression of the line at Newhaven, with some locations re-sited to match available space. The real Newhaven Harbour station had no real building of any size serving the passengers and the 'Marine' station was enormous! If I was to do it all again, I would probably go for a model of something entirely ficticious. However it's the little details that make a model believable - if you get them right!

[paulr1949]

Dear Paul,

Many thanks for the interesting information on signalling and the boat train formations. I'm going to hold my hands up and confess that I just guessed about signal numbers! I had seen a picture on the internet featuring a 2 HAP in all blue livery on the singled section of line to Seaford and presumed that it was from the 70's due to the clothing style of two boys waving at the train. I will not assume anything in future!

The signals will be altered in due course. I must say that information and photos of the Newhaven area in the 70's is very hard to find.

Your recollections of Newhaven boat train formations match those of Oldddudders the other day. Thankyou for that. Now I can publish some pictures of the 4 CEP without feeling guilty about not knowing if it was correct.

It's even better to know is that the poor old boat train consisted of just one 4-car unit at times. As I said originally, the layout is only an impression of the line at Newhaven, with some locations re-sited to match available space. The real Newhaven Harbour station had no real building of any size serving the passengers and the 'Marine' station was enormous! If I was to do it all again, I would probably go for a model of something entirely ficticious. However it's the little details that make a model believable - if you get them right!

 

 

Hi Colin

 

I agree about the details - I try and get them in, but don't often succeed! Signalling is one of my interests - I will look and see if I have a plan anywhere but I don't think I do. Incidentally, you're not the only one, there's a layout in the January "Hornby" magazine which does the same thing!

I used to work in the South Eastern control office at Beckenham - the night Newhaven train departed and arrived in platform 2, so we were responsible for transmitting the loading details for that one. You may have to wait for an all-blue one though! (I can't remember when they went blue and grey)

I know what you mean about Newhaven Marine - I only went there by train once, on a railtour in the early 90's I think. I can remember seeing tank engines shunting in the yards in 1962 - we stayed in a caravan in Peacehaven whilst my father went to a conference in Brighton - it gave us an extra few days holiday.

[Colin parks]

I'm being talked about - which is always worrying!

 

I worked in the Control at Redhill/Croydon from 1968-73, but was never trusted with Area 3, which I think looked after Newhaven. Area 4, which ran London Bridge to Coulsdon North and Warnham, was quite enough for me! I used to hear the boat train being talked about on occasions, and Geoff Clasby always seemed to ring the DCC (shift leader) to report the boat train away - was it at 1718, perhaps? As for the electric locos, I'd seen those a decade before when numbersnatching at Earlswood. Even in their last days, 20 years after Nationalisation and renumbering, it was not uncommon for the Norwood Yard staff, when giving us a tally for a departing freight train, to refer to 20001 as CC1!

 

I'm afraid colour is a nightmare. Quite apart from the accuracy of our cameras, be they film or digital, and our PC monitors, memory is simply unreliable. If you are happy with the 2-BIL colour - and it happens to look ok to me - then that's that. Elsewhere, earnest folk are concerned about the shade of malachite Hornby are now using - with reason. Except when I looked in the HMRS Livery Register for LSWR & Southern I could see Hornby's point, too.....

Dear Oldddudders,

After the the unexpectedly large number of replies that I have received, I am finally getting around to thanking you for your informative reply re Newhaven boat trains etc. I'm not sure of the boat train departure time but late afternoon sounds about right. I am tempted to model a Bulleid-Raworth loco. Dare I ask what colour they were painted in their final years in service!!!!!!

 

Another thing. I have brought my 2 BIL model up next to the monitor and checked its colour. The posted image is much more washed out and olive- toned than my model. So you were right about cameras and monitors all along!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin

 

I agree about the details - I try and get them in, but don't often succeed! Signalling is one of my interests - I will look and see if I have a plan anywhere but I don't think I do. Incidentally, you're not the only one, there's a layout in the January "Hornby" magazine which does the same thing!

I used to work in the South Eastern control office at Beckenham - the night Newhaven train departed and arrived in platform 2, so we were responsible for transmitting the loading details for that one. You may have to wait for an all-blue one though! (I can't remember when they went blue and grey)

I know what you mean about Newhaven Marine - I only went there by train once, on a railtour in the early 90's I think. I can remember seeing tank engines shunting in the yards in 1962 - we stayed in a caravan in Peacehaven whilst my father went to a conference in Brighton - it gave us an extra few days holiday.

 

 

Dear Paul,

Don't dig out your plan! I know full well how complex and different the railway at Newhaven was!

Re. the 4 CEP livery: I can be sure that the boat trains that I saw were blue/grey c. 1974. Also, there is a picture on the Net of Seaford station with a 4 COR (?) at platform 1 in blue/full yellow end livery and next to that stands a blue/grey liveried 4 CIG or 4 CEP. This picture must date from the early 70's. I am going to stake my (shredded) reputation on that photo and run my blue/grey 4 CEP on my layout.

The 2 HAPs, 2 HALs and even some 2 BILs that ran down the Seaford line carried the blue/full yellow end livery in the late 60's and early 70's. But when were these liveries introduced and when did later units receive the blue/grey livery? All this uncertainty goes to show that memory is not exactly a 'primary source' and in my case, memory is barely a 'secondary source' either!

 

You stayed in Peacehaven?! That's where I come from!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Oldddudders]

Hi Colin

 

As you say, you have had a lot of interest, including being a "question" in Andy Y's quiz! Fame indeed! And, as you may have wondered, yes PaulR and I do indeed know each other, having met, I think, at Victoria in 1967/8. We met again in 1981 when he was doing something useful in the Control at Beckenham - while I was loafing around in the offices upstairs!

 

The first repaints of Southern electrics from green were into an all-blue livery, but it wasn't long before the mainline units - e.g. CIGs and CEPs - were given the grey contrasting colour. BILs and CORs never got the grey, and it was only some time later that HAPs and finally EPBs received it. So for your period, CEP and CIG are certainly blue/grey. My vague recollection is that 7808 was the first VEP to be painted in blue/grey, but I could be wrong. Since Big H are apparently going to make one this year, you need to be sure whether they penetrated beyond Southerham Junction in your era! My hunch is not on a regular basis.

 

As for the big CC locos, I cannot be sure but think blue was their final livery - logically they would have had full yellow ends at that stage.