RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 31, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2018 When I was doing my guard's training course, it was mentioned that anybody running towards you in an obvious state of panic and waving his arms about the place should be regarded as giving you a stop signal. I actually experienced this on the occasion of a derailment at Pengam Freightliner Terminal; aboard a Western drawing a rake of 15 wagons out of the Terminal along the headshunt towards Marshalling, with the driver and me sitting in the 'up' direction cab (naughty driver!), so I was looking out and passing signals to him. A shunter came running under the Pengam Road bridge in the aforementioned state of distress, and I told the driver to stop with some assertiveness in my tone. As we came to a stand, one of the terminal's floodlight towers fell down across the train, fortunately not across the running lines, but all traffic was stopped anyway because the derailed wagon's wheels had severed the S & T's power cables... This started a week in which I was involved in 3 'incidents' at Pengam Freightliner, none of them my fault but the Terminal Manager understandably wanted to ban me from the premises! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted March 31, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2018 The green for shunting is relatively new (Probably older than I think) for moving cautiously. Green is also used for guard despatch on LHS (Sleeper trains etc) or where else maybe required under the rules. Red vertically is used for create brake for a test or by clenched fist (Trainspotters note this is NOT to sound horn) Have taken many Bardics apart as I frequently repaired them, not so often now as their use is getting reduced, have a reasonable amount of spares. I've still got my bardic, trouble is that it is hard to get AD28s these days Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 31, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2018 OK so maybe it was re-introduced in the late 80's early 90's as it wasn't in use in my early BR days. Also green hand signal at level Xings under local control and points secured for wrong direction movements under single line working. Kev It was in the 1972 Revised Rule Book and was definitely in the June 1983 reissued pages (and wasn't changed in the 1984 amendments), and it's in the June 1990 and December 1990 reissues of various Sections but I don't think I have a copy of the relevant 1988 pages - definitely not with the others I've mentioned. I think the 1988 issue was probably when it was moved into Section J as I'm fairly sure that was when Section D changed considerably with most of the handsignals being moved out of it. Apart from that it's in all the Rule Books I have from 1913 up to and including the 1983 & 1984 amendments so it had remained in both the 1933 revision of the RCH Standard Rules and the 1950 BR/RCH Rule Book and my copy of the latter is fully amended as far as Supplements are concerned right up to the Supplements Nos 4 & 5 which came into effect in May 1970 and which were - as far as I can trace - the final supplements for that Book. I'll have a search to see if I've got the 1988 pages with my Driver's Manuals and various other bits and pieces as I tended to hang on to superseded pages when they were reissued. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Every member of traincrew in BR days was issued with a handlamp, capable of displaying a white or red aspect. From the mid-60s these were battery-powered, rather than oil. They were also issued to signalboxes and stations, but not usually to individuals working at those places. I only ever used a red aspect once, and the driver was so surprised he asked me “What’s that?” We were “playing trains” due to a bomb-scare which required his train to reverse and take an alternative route. Yes funny how they are taught those things and then when it comes to a real-life application .......................... discovering a broken rail on the Down Windsor Fast at Clapham Jn one PM whilst lifting the T2 protection - my raised arm gesture to the approaching 455 produced just a quizzical look from the driver as his train carried on and rattled over the 2 inch gap ................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 31, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2018 Yes funny how they are taught those things and then when it comes to a real-life application .......................... discovering a broken rail on the Down Windsor Fast at Clapham Jn one PM whilst lifting the T2 protection - my raised arm gesture to the approaching 455 produced just a quizzical look from the driver as his train carried on and rattled over the 2 inch gap ................... Human nature. But I also have a recollection of a driver, who should have been cautioned by Rochester box, gunning it at the top of Sole St bank, straight past firemen grappling with a fire in a lineside industry. The fact is that drivers go for years without needing to respond to these things, and the reaction isn’t there. Refreshers? Who is gonna pay for those? The way of the world, sadly. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 Yes funny how they are taught those things and then when it comes to a real-life application .......................... discovering a broken rail on the Down Windsor Fast at Clapham Jn one PM whilst lifting the T2 protection - my raised arm gesture to the approaching 455 produced just a quizzical look from the driver as his train carried on and rattled over the 2 inch gap ................... That was a SPAD and should have been recorded as such. Anyway back to the OP - Were you thinking of the Possession Limit Board - a STOP sign with a flashing red light on top? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 Ah, an indication of youth or working in an area with multiple aspect signals (or both). Prior to the 1985/86 review of the Rule Book and Regulations a green handsignal held steadily was used to authorise a train to pass a semaphore stop signal or two aspect colour light signal when the signal was at danger. A yellow handsignal was used to authorise a train to pass at danger a multiple aspect colour light signal or a semaphore stop signal with a lower arm distant signal. When the Rules & Regulations Working Party (of which I was a member at the time) were carrying out the 1985 review of the Rule Book it was suggested that a yellow handsignal should be used in all cases when it was necessary to handsignal a movement past a signal at danger, irrespective of the type of signal. We agreed to make such a change and incorporated it. into our draft which was subsequently approved at Signalling Sub-Committee and ratified at the relevant operations conference thus incorporating it into the reissue of the Rule Book and Signalling Regulations. Green was (is) of course essential when shunting to avoid sudden stops when a Driver was(is) proceeding on a white light handsignal and of course a green handsignal remains in use to this day to indicate 'move slowly' (or slow down) when controlling a shunting movement with handsignals. The use of a green light for 'move slowly' in shunting handsignals goes back to at least the 1913 reissue of the RCH standard Rules and the relevant Railway Company Rule Books so certainly older than you might be thinking . That makes sense. All my first experiences at flagging were in MAS areas. I did not have to flag in anger at semaphores until I moved to Ashford (for the Canterbury West branch) in the mid-80's. Maybe I have remembered wrongly about shunting about using a green aspect, as I did plenty of it in the '80's and I would certainly have indicated to drivers to slow down on engineering jobs and at Bowaters shed at Sittingbourne! But my only saved Bardic (an abandoned one picked up from an engineering job in the 2000's) definitely does not have a green aspect - two aspects are white and the other two are red and yellow. Strange. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 I've still got my bardic, trouble is that it is hard to get AD28s these days Andi You can get parts to substitute battery trays for D type cells. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 That was a SPAD and should have been recorded as such. Oooo - now that's INTERESTING point - I never considered it that way was obviously concerned with getting the line properly blocked and where the hell I was going to locate a similarly worn piece of 110lb FB rail to replace the broken length with - was 18" from a crossing leg and there no way that was being fudged with plates or a wide gap weld ............. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 I cannot lay my hands on my copy of the 1950 Rules and Regulations book which I was issued with in 1959 at the moment but I'm certain there was reference to flags of any colour waved "violently" would be taken as a danger signal. Including red flannel petticoats..... Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Including red flannel petticoats..... ...but only with prior written consent from the wearer :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb900f Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Oooo - now that's INTERESTING point - I never considered it that way was obviously concerned with getting the line properly blocked and where the hell I was going to locate a similarly worn piece of 110lb FB rail to replace the broken length with - was 18" from a crossing leg and there no way that was being fudged with plates or a wide gap weld ............. Here we go again. Lets nail the driver. I don't consider a driver as having a SPAD just because some bloke on the ground sticks 1 arm in the air. It's amazing how everyone wants to blame the driver and report them and yet a driver can see lots of things wrong but never reports the matter. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 That was a SPAD and should have been recorded as such. Anyway back to the OP - Were you thinking of the Possession Limit Board - a STOP sign with a flashing red light on top? No way was that a SPAD. Just how long do you think it takes to stop, no warning etc? Who do you think the railway has distant signals? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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