The use of company logos

[ChrisFordham]

In these days of copyright and being sued, has anyone ever had any issues using a specific company logo on a layout?

 

Specifically I wanted to use the aggregate industries logo?

Thanks for any help/advise

 

Cheers Chris

[bimble]

I would have thought that under fair use laws, making a model for personal use would be fine... unless you were planning on selling them for profit, in which case permission might be needed.

[DCB]

Don't know about being sued but an HST in John Player Special livery would be interesting or a Benson and Hedges sprinter, might be worth an enquiry.  They might be gad of the advertising!

[Hilux5972]

Selling for profit you're in a world of copyright problems. Personal use has no such issues attached to it. I have had custom made Hogwarts Express crests and coach roundels printed and have not had any issues.

[E3109]

I remember when BR was being ring fenced into business units, one of the shadow FOCs wanted royalties for using their logo on models.

It was either Loadhaul or Mainline, the latter I think.

[Fat Controller]

I recollect Paul Rolley, 'Naturol' of this parish, had problems when modelling a certain company's plant at Cadoxton/Barry, such that they told him he couldn't use their name or logo anywhere on the model.

[PaulRhB]

I think Paul's problems started because they thought he had inside info into their process and had modelled it so well they thought he could give away secrets. He wasn't risking starting expensive legal action and the associated stress to prove it so complied even though there was nothing illicit. As his pics he modelled from were taken from public places it was ok in reality same as you can publish photos with them in the background. Naming your layout Aggregate Indistries or ICI etc however can sit you in the firing line as the name being advertised in show guides or mags can infringe copyright on identity. Call it Frome Quarry or similar and it's fine.

[Neil]

Interesting topic which has sent me away to do some research. Here's an interesting article from the Financial Times which while not focussed on model railways has an outline of the principles as applied to art which may help put the issue into some perspective. I thought that I should see what the UK copyright service had to say about company logos. It turns out that company logos are covered by copyright and that unauthorised copying would be an infringement, however there are exemptions covered by fair use. Taking a look at the exemptions to copyright the most relevant section seems to be that of parody, caricature and pastiche. Again the examples given are not in the field of railway modelling but the general principles would seem to apply though they need to be referenced to the section on fair dealing further down the page. It should be noted that ‘"Fair dealing’ is a legal term used to establish whether a use of copyright material is lawful or whether it infringes copyright. There is no statutory definition of fair dealing - it will always be a matter of fact, degree and impression in each case. The question to be asked is: how would a fair-minded and honest person have dealt with the work?"

 

My take on the situation? I'd do it.

[Podhunter]

In these days of copyright and being sued, has anyone ever had any issues using a specific company logo on a layout?

 

You need to distinguish between copyright and trademarks.

Copyright safeguards the intellectual property (IP) of a person or organisation.  Generally, that means something that has been published.  Usually, it's OK to quote copyright material provided the source is acknowledged.  'Quote' means a sentence or two from a printed source.  If you have written permission from the copyright owner then it's OK to use their material, although they may want to impose their own conditions of use if they feel that you may be taking commercial advantage of their IP.

A trademark is exactly that: a mark that identifies something owned by, usually, a company.  Companies look after their trademarks carefully because they identify something that people associate with that company.  That is, you can't start a new company that does something similar to another company and use their logo (trademark) to identify your product.  If you use their trademark for a different purpose then the law may not apply.

Trademarks can also be copyright.  That tightens the circumstances under which you can 'borrow' a company's logo for commercial use.

For non-commercial use, such as a model railway exhibition, it's unlikely that a company will object to someone exhibiting a miniature version of their logo.

Pre-empt any problem by writing to the Company Secretary of the organisation that owns the logo you want to reproduce.  Every limited company in the UK must have a Company Secretary: it's a legal requirement.  You can find the registered address of a Ltd company at Companies House.  Ask for permission to reproduce their logo on your model.  The chances are that you won't receive a reply, but keep your written letter as evidence that you asked for permission.  If the company decided at some time that you are misusing their trademark then it's unlikely that they could make their case stand up in a court of law.  

Edited April 24, 2018 by Podhunter

[w124bob]

Union Pacific(lawyers) tryed to squeeze more money out numerous US manufacturers and traders some years ago in a heavy handed way. It included all of the UP acqusition and merger railroads, it backfired badly for them, but only after intervention by the NMRA and others. However you will see model companies small print "used under license" when ever UP or a constituent company livery is modelled. Thankfully the UP senior management now see the model railroad fraternity as basically free publicity. Owning and restoring these helps! Picture even made the Dail Wail.

 

[The Johnster]

It surfaces in unexpected ways, and it is better to be safe than sorry if you can.  Some while ago a friend who owns a microlight aircraft for a spin around West Wales; of course I saw most of it through my camera viewfinder!  He mentioned that he would prefer that I kept the images strictly for my personal private use and not disseminate them online, as he knew of of an amateur pilot who had got into trouble with the CAA after similar images had found their way onto a travel agent's poster material and been reported.

 

I have, of course, respected my friend's wishes, and fully understood why he asked me to do this.

Edited April 22, 2018 by The Johnster

[Nearholmer]

There was a case involving Hornby, about ninety years ago, where they used a trademark on a tinplate wagon without permissions n, and were challenged over it and had to desist. Colman’s Mustard, 1923, I think.

[sharris]

I bought some strawberry plants today. Apparently, according to the label, I'm not allowed to propagate them without a licence.

[Bernard Lamb]

Somewhere in the back of my mind I seem to remember a situation in the early days of Virgin Trains.

The people in the office wanted a very large fee for the use of the Virgin images.

Chris Green got to hear of it and the problem was quickly solved.

The phrase used was something on the lines of... "They are model train makers, they do not have that sort of money.

Bernard

[009 micro modeller]

Couldn't they do a tie in with the manufacturer of the product, eg a box with some chocolates and a model of this loco: http://www.miac.org.uk/images/cadburyno6.jpg

[Nearholmer]

Bernard

 

If you look at the CV of Bachmann's customer relations manager, I think you will see how they are able to maintain good relations with the railway industry, and Virgin in particular, given that he was Deputy Director of Corporate Affairs under Chris Green. The gentleman concerned is a stalwart of our local local club, a real deep-down railwayman and railway enthusiast.

 

Kevin

[Wickham Green]

I bought some strawberry plants today. Apparently, according to the label, I'm not allowed to propagate them without a licence.

Knowing strawberry plants, they'll propagate themselves without your intervention ................. would be interesting to see a challenge by the breeders tested in a court of law !

[Dunsignalling]

Don't know about being sued but an HST in John Player Special livery would be interesting or a Benson and Hedges sprinter, might be worth an enquiry.  They might be gad of the advertising!

Nowadays, that would be unbranded buff decorated with horror pics of the long-term effects the contents are likely to have on the purchaser........... 

[GeoffAlan]

I seem to remember London Transport wouldn't allow duplication of their logo.  The net result being no models of the London tube network were (or should that be are) on sale.

[John ks]

Got this from Rapido's 100th newsletter

 

We couldn't get permission to make the other schemes. If you want a Spiderman II F40PH-2D, you just need to send a $50,000 USD royalty payment to Disney on our behalf. And then it's Nooooo Problem!

 

​​

​John

[Nearholmer]

Correct, TfL are hugely protective of their brand, and will only license its use under very controlled conditions, and will take action against misuse.https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/suppliers-and-contractors/product-licensing

 

Doesn’t stop people making models of their trains, or painting logos on at home, but does mean that commercial makers need to ask very nicely. Radley Models seem to have asked nicely, because they produce relevant transfers http://radleymodels.com/london-transport-transfers-4mm-7mm

Edited April 23, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Chris M]

Trademarks can also be copyright.  That tightens the circumstances under which you can 'borrow' a company's logo for commercial use.

For non-commercial use, such as a model railway exhibition, it's unlikely that a company will object to someone exhibiting a miniature version of their logo.

 

 

I would have thought that a model railway exhibition, especially one put on by a magazine, was commercial use. Even though the owner of an item carrying a logo receives no reward the item is being used to help another business make a profit.

[Il Grifone]

There was a case involving Hornby, about ninety years ago, where they used a trademark on a tinplate wagon without permissions n, and were challenged over it and had to desist. Colman’s Mustard, 1923, I think.

 

That would explain their rarity today, but short sighted as regards advertising. Peco did one forty years later - perhaps Colmans had seen the light?

 

I can remember Esso being a favourite boyhood brand brand thanks to Dublo tank wagons. (Tigers* and free badges and later free glasses had something to do with it too....)

 

* An Italian plastic Esso tiger of my wife's still decorates the kitchen. He's a bit discoloured with age now though.)

[Nearholmer]

Colman’s saw the light both before and after, see this thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129858-colmans-wagons-real-and-model/?hl=colman I think Hornby teed them off by not asking, unlike others who did.

 

Kevin

[sharris]

That would explain their rarity today, but short sighted as regards advertising. Peco did one forty years later - perhaps Colmans had seen the light.

I couldn't get permission to make a Coleman's wagon, so I made a Mail(le) van instead.