How are etched brass kits made ?

[brian777999]

Some weeks ago I asked who made GWR OO gauge etched brass wagon kits because I wanted to develop my skills in this area before moving on to building locomotives. I received a few replies before the question was merged with another about beginning in soldering and my initial query was hijacked.

 

I did receive a few replies to my question and after numerous phone calls to the UK I have found that many of the nominated suppliers have disappeared or they are having major problems with their etching and tooling. What exactly is involved in producing an etched brass kit ? It must be more involved than I thought.

 

(The only currect suppliers I could find are Dart Castings (brake vans) and a few from Mousa Models. Hopefully, Dart Castings will soon have the full range of Falcon Brassworks wagon kits available. You would not think it would be so hard to buy a brass kit of a GWR single bolster wagon ; even a plastic kit is not made.)

[Kris]

To create an etched kit you first need to draw up the artwork for it, normally now done on computers. This will indicate the areas to be fully etched through, half etch from the front, half etched from the rear or not etched at all. This is done by colour. Once this is done the artwork can be sent off to an etching company who will used it to create a photo master which is laid on the material you are etching. The acids are then introduced eating away at the required areas. Once done the acids are neutralised and hey presto you have an etched kit ready to go.

Okay a somewhat simplified view.

[Happy Hippo]

Brian,

 

Kris's simple explanation just about says it all. But just to clarify his point about using colour:

 

When I sent a drawing to the etching company, I use a 3 colour scheme.

 

Any black line etches all the way through.

 

Any red line will half etch from the front.

 

Any blue lines will half etch from the back.

 

By using blocks of red or blue, you can create large areas of half etched brass such as panelling on coaches.

 

You can connect parts together using thin red or blue lines so all the parts don't fall into the bottom of the etch tank. (You will not be popular if this happens!)

 

Since the advent of affordable drawing packages for your PC, it is not difficult to draw your own art work: There are certain mathematical allowances you have to allow for when designing the sheet, and ideally you need to maximise the number of parts per sheet. This can take quite a bit of time, especially if you are adding 'spares' for another job Above all, what you design has got to be constructable. I'm guilty of making some pretty complicated etched parts, that were virtualy impossible to fold up, and had to be redesigned for ease of assembly. (as an aside, I was at our local laser cuttering company, and they have a program on their computer that does the maximising of parts to a sheet automatically: Facinating to watch, but I didn't dare ask how much it cost!!)

 

That bring me on to the money side of the process.

 

You will present the artwork for etching and the etcher will run a sheet off for you. There will be a set up charge, plus the cost of the sheet.In the work that I do, that's about £120 for the initial sheet, so you do not want to be making mistakes unless you have deep pockets.

 

Sorry: I've rambled on beyond the colours clarification here.

 

Regards

 

Richard

[Jol Wilkinson]

Some weeks ago I asked who made GWR OO gauge etched brass wagon kits because I wanted to develop my skills in this area before moving on to building locomotives. I received a few replies before the question was merged with another about beginning in soldering and my initial query was hijacked.

 

I did receive a few replies to my question and after numerous phone calls to the UK I have found that many of the nominated suppliers have disappeared or they are having major problems with their etching and tooling. What exactly is involved in producing an etched brass kit ? It must be more involved than I thought.

 

(The only currect suppliers I could find are Dart Castings (brake vans) and a few from Mousa Models. Hopefully, Dart Castings will soon have the full range of Falcon Brassworks wagon kits available. You would not think it would be so hard to buy a brass kit of a GWR single bolster wagon ; even a plastic kit is not made.)

 

Brian,

 

one thing that tend to be overlooked is the research needed to produce an accurate kit. Add to that an understanding of the best way to design a kit so that it goes together easily and well. Often that means using a variety of manufacturing techniques, appropriate to the particular component (etched buffers, anyone?). So you may need to produce patterns for castings, etc. (although for a wagon, you could probably buy those in from ABS, etc.).

 

A look at Iain Rices "Etched loco construction" will give a good, although now slightly dated, overview of the design and production process. Good prototype data - original works drawings, photos, etc. is IMO crucial if you want it to be right. A simple 2D PC drawing package that can output files in the etcher's preferred format is one drawing option (I use an earlier version of CorelDraw). Otherwise you can produce hand drawn artwork 3 or 4 times full scale (to allow for photo reduction - which reduces drawing errors). The more work the etcher has to do to make your artwork into a tool, the more it will cost. So I send my files in black and white only, ready for printing straight onto the tool film.

 

Take a look at the websites of the etching companies, Photo Etch Consultants, Chempix (part of Microprecision) or PPD, who specialise in small volume production.

 

It's not too difficult, but it isn't that easy either.

 

Jol

[jamie92208]

Having just sent my second etch off for production I can concur with what is said above. You need good research and quite a bit of thought about how the kit will go together. However the castings are another matter buffers, brake cylinders etc are better as castings and they need to be sourced as otherwise you are into the other expensive process of making a master then having a mould made and then getting your castings. This is possible. In some of the gauge societies you occaisionally see a small ad from someone who is interested in producing a short run of a one off kit and asks for expressions of interest from other members to spread the cost. However this is done on an informal basis. However these things can be done. particularly the drawings for etchings though as in all things practice makes perfect. Hopefully my latest artwork will only need 2 revisions before it's ready for production rather than 7 with my first test etch. There is an example of the artwork on my Lancaster Green Ayre Thread.

 

Jamie

[craigwelsh]

If you want a good step by step with all the details read the how to papers here http://www.hollywoodfoundry.com/HowToPapers.shtm

[brian777999]

This is all very interesting. Thank you for the information. The whole process is more involved than I thought. No wonder there are not too many making etched brass wagon kits now. I suppose with coaches and locomotives you get more of a return on your investment.

[Kenton]

If you are doing it soley for youself then you do not have to worry about design and build - too much.

 

But if your intention is to sell the etches as kits designing with correct build in mind is essential along with providing good instructions and ALL parts. If you don't do this, your kit is unlikely to sell and will get a real lathering on the forums and other web sites. Kit builders, like myself, do not give any rosettes for a kit that will not go together correctly or requires additions or scratch building work. It might be your first commercial kit but most expect the much needed development work to have been done by the designer. However, get it right and you should be able to sell enough to cover the costs - but don't expect to grow rich on it.

[Ralph R]

Gordon Gravett wrote a good article on producing drawings for etching in a recent Model Railway Journal. He uses his own etches for producing those lovely locos and railcars on Pempoul. It was a very interesting and informative article and I would recommend you try to source a copy if you can.

 

I see from the MRJ Index I just googled it was in MRJ 190 which appeared in 2009.

[hayfield]

I did receive a few replies to my question and after numerous phone calls to the UK I have found that many of the nominated suppliers have disappeared or they are having major problems with their etching and tooling. What exactly is involved in producing an etched brass kit ? It must be more involved than I thought.

 

(The only currect suppliers I could find are Dart Castings (brake vans) and a few from Mousa Models. Hopefully, Dart Castings will soon have the full range of Falcon Brassworks wagon kits available. You would not think it would be so hard to buy a brass kit of a GWR single bolster wagon ; even a plastic kit is not made.)

 

I do not know if all your questions have been answered, so here is a different slant

 

I think that quite a lot of Manufacturers both in etched and white metal kits have stopped supplying kits, over time they do come and go and the likes of London Road Models, NuCast, 247 developements etc take over ranges. Etching is simpler to do now as explained, and a lot of people do their own etches.

 

Here is a link to London Road models wagons http://www.scalefour.org/londonroad/wagons.html, John does a range of both etched and cast wagons.

 

Here is a link to Blacksmiths http://www.blacksmithmodels.com/4mm_Kits.htm I have built the S&DJR milk van which is quite easy.

 

I have also built an etched SR utility van from Chivers Finelines, I think they are now doing some LNER vans see small suppliers.

 

Caley Coaches do nice Vans http://www.caley.com/goods.php I have built a 6 wheel van.

 

Start with simple 4 wheelers first, nothing too big or complicated, I would recommend a simple closed van.

 

As for Falcon Brass / Jedinco, they are a bit harder to build so build a few easier ones first.

[Rumblestripe]

I suspect that one of the reasons few wagons are made in etched brass is that they are easier to do in cast whitemetal (or plastic for a popular prototype) and often look better. For open wagons etched brass looks rather insubstantial as a wagon side (Vans obviously are OK). Producing a cast model gets around the difficulties of things like buffers and other items which are impossible to make in etched brass. D&S used to do their wagons largely in cast whitemetal with some etched fittings and NPC stock and similar in etched brass.

[craigwelsh]

Gordon Gravett wrote a good article on producing drawings for etching in a recent Model Railway Journal. He uses his own etches for producing those lovely locos and railcars on Pempoul. It was a very interesting and informative article and I would recommend you try to source a copy if you can.

 

I see from the MRJ Index I just googled it was in MRJ 190 which appeared in 2009.

Although good on the process and indeed how to do manual artwork (yup hand drawing the stuff now!) the numbers were far too conservative compared to what can be achieved and the rules of etching as laid out in the Hollywood foundry paper are more realistic and tie up with what i've had from the etcher.

 

Btw Brian, the Falcon Brass range is hardly an example of good etched design even if they are eventually buildable.

 

Hoppers are a wonderful example of the complex end of the scale, I've been drawing one up this weekend and without a 3D package you have to translate the 2D plan into proper 2d flat components for etching working out which dimension to translate where. I'm pretty sure at least one etcher has etched the plan views before now which is why a tender had gaps in the coal area!

[brian777999]

Here is a link to London Road models wagons http://www.scalefour.org/londonroad/wagons.html, John does a range of both etched and cast wagons.

 

Here is a link to Blacksmiths http://www.blacksmithmodels.com/4mm_Kits.htm I have built the S&DJR milk van which is quite easy.

 

I have also built an etched SR utility van from Chivers Finelines, I think they are now doing some LNER vans see small suppliers.

 

Caley Coaches do nice Vans http://www.caley.com/goods.php I have built a 6 wheel van.

 

Start with simple 4 wheelers first, nothing too big or complicated, I would recommend a simple closed van.

 

As for Falcon Brass / Jedinco, they are a bit harder to build so build a few easier ones first.

 

The Falcon Brassworks range has been taken over by Dart Castings. It will be some months before anything is available and it is not known what will be continued and what will be dropped. (I am sweating on the GWR sinlge bolster !)

 

London Road Models make some wonderful kits but they do not accept orders by email or by phone. As I live in Australia this means using snail mail and bank drafts which is far too expensive.

 

I will look at Caley Coaches. Thank you for the links.

 

NOTE : the Chivers site has also been disabled.

[Kenton]

Hoppers are a wonderful example of the complex end of the scale

But there are really good example etched kits out there, that are well designed and build well (though not for the feint hearted)

GWR and LSWR variants .. Southwark Bridge Models I was going to link to them but their website is currently down - still in business though as Ian was at ExpoEM this weekend.

[craigwelsh]

But there are really good example etched kits out there, that are well designed and build well (though not for the feint hearted)

GWR and LSWR variants .. Southwark Bridge Models I was going to link to them but their website is currently down - still in business though as Ian was at ExpoEM this weekend.

I was talking about designing the things now building them. SBM were lucky with the GWR P7 as the drawings exist, the one i'm doing is a bit tricker as the drawings ahven't been discovered yet and none survive.

[Jol Wilkinson]

The Falcon Brassworks range has been taken over by Dart Castings. It will be some months before anything is available and it is not known what will be continued and what will be dropped. (I am sweating on the GWR sinlge bolster !)

 

London Road Models make some wonderful kits but they do not accept orders by email or by phone. As I live in Australia this means using snail mail and bank drafts which is far too expensive.

 

I will look at Caley Coaches. Thank you for the links.

 

Brian,

 

a letter to John Redrup of LRM, with your credit card details, will work.

 

Jol

[hollywoodfoundry]

Brian,

 

a letter to John Redrup of LRM, with your credit card details, will work.

 

Jol

 

If you know him that well, you might ask him why he does not accept orders by email or telephone?

 

In this century they are perfectly acceptable methods of doing business.

[craigwelsh]

Here is a bit of etch design consideration for you. Some class 14 rods for test etching taking shape.

 

Stage 1 - Search through the uncatalogued boxes at the NRM to find the drawings (or measure one, i've had a look at the examples at the DFR and Peak Rail)

Stage 2 - Transpose prototype drawing to CAD

Stage 3 - Work out the layering to make up the rods as shown in the picture below against the prototype. Forked couplings make this tricky!

Stage 4 - Work out each layers side view based on the top down layering, I need to make the outline slightly larger than exact to account for filing back of the etch layering effect by the builder. The correct size holes to open out for model crankpins is also needed. Note the squares in the top of some layers where the corks in the oil boxes go.

Stage 5 - Frame the layers with holes around them to help alignment when laminating.

 

 

Probably can't use these on a Heljan if you build out the crank axle boss as per the prototype (narrower f2f than the wheels..)!

 

Yes they are 8 layers of 0.25mm thick due to what im sticking them on, no this isnt normal!

[brian777999]

Btw Brian, the Falcon Brass range is hardly an example of good etched design even if they are eventually buildable.

 

 

That may be true but nobody else is doing much in the way of GWR metal wagon kits so beggars cannot be choosers. As far as I can tell, their GWR single bolster is the only GWR single bolster available. That includes brass, white metal, plastic or RTR.

 

Wizard Models do a lot of single bolsters sold as pairs but not for GWR.

[Jol Wilkinson]

If you know him that well, you might ask him why he does not accept orders by email or telephone?

 

In this century they are perfectly acceptable methods of doing business.

 

To quote from the LRM website;

"Regrettably we do not have the facility to accept telephone or email orders and payment. Whilst this might seem strange in these days of instant communication and gratification, please remember that London Road Models' proprietor has a full time occupation. Previous experience has shown that some telephone and email enquiries can be surprisingly trivial but very time consuming. Time spent dealing with these inevitably prevents kits getting packed and despatched, materials ordered, etc."

 

Add to the full time job a very young family, then you might understand why John Redrup prefers not to issue his email address and home or mobile telephone numbers at present. When he used to, and a change of personal circumstances meant going back to a full time job, it became very apparent that he couldn't easily cope with telephone calls at work, at home at 10:00pm, emails asking for historic details of the prototype for a particular kit, etc. as well as keeping production as up to date as possible. I have known John very well for over twenty years and admire his dedication at keeping the business going through some difficult times, taking on other ranges so that the kits in them are still available, etc.

 

It should be remembered that many of the "small suppliers" that support this hobby are not big enough to provide a living wage. They rely on the owner being in a position where they can survive on an income that is supplemented by a pension, other work, etc.

 

Jol

[billbedford]

That may be true but nobody else is doing much in the way of GWR metal wagon kits so beggars cannot be choosers. As far as I can tell, their GWR single bolster is the only GWR single bolster available. That includes brass, white metal, plastic or RTR.

 

Wizard Models do a lot of single bolsters sold as pairs but not for GWR.

...and what, structurally speaking, are the differences between a GWR single bolster and anyone else's? Buffers and axleboxes can easily be easily exchanged on existing kits to make a fair representation of a GWR vehicle. Also these wagons were common user, so unless you are modelling pre c1930 specific company wagons are not necessary.

[hollywoodfoundry]

To quote from the LRM website;

"Regrettably we do not have the facility to accept telephone or email orders and payment. Whilst this might seem strange in these days of instant communication and gratification, please remember that London Road Models' proprietor has a full time occupation. Previous experience has shown that some telephone and email enquiries can be surprisingly trivial but very time consuming. Time spent dealing with these inevitably prevents kits getting packed and despatched, materials ordered, etc."

 

Add to the full time job a very young family, then you might understand why John Redrup prefers not to issue his email address and home or mobile telephone numbers at present. When he used to, and a change of personal circumstances meant going back to a full time job, it became very apparent that he couldn't easily cope with telephone calls at work, at home at 10:00pm, emails asking for historic details of the prototype for a particular kit, etc. as well as keeping production as up to date as possible. I have known John very well for over twenty years and admire his dedication at keeping the business going through some difficult times, taking on other ranges so that the kits in them are still available, etc.

 

It should be remembered that many of the "small suppliers" that support this hobby are not big enough to provide a living wage. They rely on the owner being in a position where they can survive on an income that is supplemented by a pension, other work, etc.

 

Jol

 

I can agree that if he has a full-time job, then telephone calls are not welcome, however that does not rule out using email. I run my model business on a world-wide basis and email is my preferred method of communication. It takes far less time than written letters and is far less costly. And you can elect to reply to emails any time, so can easily be done out of hours. And it works far better than letters when the information provided by the customer is incomplete or requires clarification.

 

I'm sorry, but I do not regard any of the reasons given as valid for not conducting business in a professional and efficient manner, and in modern times, that means email and a decent web site.

 

It should be remembered that many of the "small suppliers" that support this hobby are not big enough to provide a living wage. Yes, I can relate to that, but what about the small supplier who does it as a full time job, and does not have the luxury of a second job, pension etc.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I can agree that if he has a full-time job, then telephone calls are not welcome, however that does not rule out using email. I run my model business on a world-wide basis and email is my preferred method of communication. It takes far less time than written letters and is far less costly. And you can elect to reply to emails any time, so can easily be done out of hours. And it works far better than letters when the information provided by the customer is incomplete or requires clarification.

 

I'm sorry, but I do not regard any of the reasons given as valid for not conducting business in a professional and efficient manner, and in modern times, that means email and a decent web site.

 

It should be remembered that many of the "small suppliers" that support this hobby are not big enough to provide a living wage. Yes, I can relate to that, but what about the small supplier who does it as a full time job, and does not have the luxury of a second job, pension etc.

 

Geoff,

 

while using email would appear to be the sensible option it doesn't always turn out to be so simple. Don't forget that out of hours for you is production time for LRM.

 

In part, it comes down to an understanding of LRM's owner’ circumstances, despite the information contained in the introductory pages of the website. I think that's true generally about the small suppliers or anyone for that matter where you don't have personal contact. My experience from the several shows each year where I help out LRM, is that people are quite understanding when you haven't got a kit on the shelf because the etches are still on order or w.h.y.

 

However, it seems different online. Other topics on RMWeb illustrate how frustrated people become when a mail order supplier has advertised a product and then run out of stock.

 

People expect a very quick, if not an instant response, to emails. The ease of using emails has also created, in my view, an ask first, think second attitude amongst some people. This is also illustrated by some of the enquiries that appear on RMWeb. So, an enquiry along the lines of "can your pre-group MR XX kit be built to represent the one carrying LMS number 1234 in 1937?" creates a lot of effort to give the reply that the enquirer seeks (and I happen to know that particular enquiry was made recently). The alternative is to say "I don't know", which can be perceived as unhelpful. With a range of well over 100 kits, such enquiries are not uncommon.

 

Emails also seem to create enquiries that, too often, don't turn into orders. The LRM website is hosted by the S4 Society in their Hosted Traders pages. Sometimes enquiries are sent to them in the belief that they have control over the Hosted Traders. Those have been dealt with by LRM in conjunction with the S4Soc. but have usually been very time consuming and don't often result in an order. Is it too easy to send an enquiry in a moment of modelling passion and then change your mind?

 

You have an excellent website, better than most of the UK small suppliers, including the full time operators and especially the low volume kit manufacturers. You also have the advantage of a narrow product range, but with wider applications and probably with many more unit sales per item.

 

In the case of the part time business or the full time manufacturer, we should remember that it's their choice to conduct their business as they choose. I wouldn't presume to tell you how to run yours, because I don't know what your aims are, what the business model is, your personal circumstances, etc. I'm just grateful that there are suppliers who do it for satisfaction and enjoyment, rather than simply the money. If they only did it for the money, there would be far fewer.

 

And regarding you comment about a second income being a luxury, I think for some of the part time small suppliers, it’s a necessity.

 

Jol

[hollywoodfoundry]

Jol, I hear what you are saying, but I am thoroughly frustrated with trying to do business with British suppliers, including the ones who operate full time operations. Many act as though they are doing you a favour by replying to you, if they ever do. It is not unusual for me to have to send emails several times to most British organisations just in order to receive a reply. And it should be considered that failing to reply to an email is just as rude as not replying to a letter.

 

So many of them are only served by mail, not publishing telephone numbers and only doing business on a Sunday when the moon is blue. In contrast, American companies usually reply the same day and give great service. Why the difference?

 

Yes, emails require you to reply more or less immediately, that's why they were created. And times are changing, so is the way people expect to do business. And they expect to do business by email at the very least.

 

For some time now, the unfavourable exchange rate has been hurting my business, and it is not unusual for me to go 3 to 5 days without a single order coming in. For a full time business like mine, that is not good. But I could not offer the products that I make on a part time basis as they take far longer to assemble than simply packing a few kits at night. At the same time, I try to reply to any incoming email within minutes of it arriving, because that is what is expected and because if I leave it too long I end up with a backlog of communications and frustrated customers.

 

So, what do modellers prefer? A business that can only be reached by snail mail or one that responds to questions promptly by email?

[Kenton]

So, what do modellers prefer? A business that can only be reached by snail mail or one that responds to questions promptly by email?

I expect to be able to send an email but certainly do not expect a reply immediately. An acknowledgement (auto responder) is nice to get with an explanation of timing/vacations/illness type inconveniences. But I don't expect instant, perhaps it is because I've been in business for myself and appreciate how inconvenient "instant" 24hr on the job expectations from customers really is.