Is Overseas Modelling Interest Declining?

[Mark Saunders]

I doubt that interest in Overseas Modelling is waning but selling enough Magazines to cover costs is!

 

Mark Saunders

[Colin_McLeod]

I never really understood the point of Tornado

Its just P304.8 modelling.

[Pacific231G]

The prices of EU models in particular leads me to ask - is interest in Overseas railways a different thing to actually modelling Overseas railways, & a decline in modelling (if there is one) does not neccesarily mean a decline in interest..??

You don't have to buy the latest superdetailed showcase standard models to build a satisfactory and satisfying model railway (That applies to whatever you're modelling). I don't know about other countries but understand that in France a lot of modellers don't have layouts (though they may build dioramas) but belong to clubs and buy for themselves a few choice items that they run on the club layout; they don't though need enough stock to populate a whole layout. That may influence the price/quality equation. At the moment the pound is very low against the Euro but the fall from its pre-referendum value is enough to suggest buying a few less items but not to give up completely.  There is also a thriving second hand market for perfectly satisfactory models within the UK (It's far higher postage charges that now make me less likely to buy on eBay from Europe).

Rolling stock is only part of the total cost. Most of what goes into a complete model railway, timber for baseboards, ballast, track, card, plasticard, scenic materials, point motors, switches, wire, controllers, paint, glue are no different whether you're modelling B.R. or S.N.C.F. in fact if you're modelling a  railway in continental Europe you'll likely be getting your track from the same company in Devon whether you live in Leeds or Lyon.

[rue_d_etropal]

Cost is one issue, but publicity is possibly a bigger factor. There are quite a lot of USA themed layouts on the UK circuit, but many seem to follw a similar theme, often industrial area, which is a pity as I have come across a few other interseting ideas. There have always been quite a few German/Austrian/Swizz layouts, and again there seems to a atypical style. Nothing against t, but it might put some off at exhibitions. There has been an increase in models of other European countries, but as they are still in the minority, you tend to notice when they are at exhibtions, Surprisingly few French layouts, whih is odd. I have been a member of the French Railway Society(formerly the  SNCF Society), but the bulk of the membership is in the south, and so I only tend to meet other French fans, if I am down that way. There is a nice French layout this year at Manchester, one reason I will be going).

As I say, publicity. I would urge anyone building a non British layout to consider writing an article and sending it to Continental Modeller. Looking back at other older magazines, there was quite often 1 or 2 articles on non British railways. A pity that when it is tried in some magazines, up pops Mr Grumpy, and no-one seems to be standing up for more variety . I have often found that most people are happy and won't comment, it is only the few, narrow minded ones who will stand up and grumble.

These days it is a lot easier, thanks to Google Map, to 'visit' other contries, and get a feel of the place. Sadly it can be difficult to find historical information .

[whart57]

I do understand one reason for the attitude of "foreign rubbish" and that is because many of the early overseas prototype layouts presented in the modelling press forty years ago were rubbish. The best British layouts then had already dropped small radius curves and points more akin to the ones found on tramways, ballasted track was the norm and weathering increasingly common. The first P4 layouts were appearing and the likes of Peter Denny had set the standard to aspire to. There were layouts of overseas prototypes that matched that standard - Guus Veenendaal's layout which featured in the first ever issue of Continental Modeller was one - but MRC in particular did promote some stinkers, I recall one that used Eggerbahn narrow gauge locos and stock but had laid out a double track mainline, and far too many still had toy like features that the best British layouts had dropped years before.

 

That however is all in the past. The best layouts of overseas prototypes are as good as any of British outline. And one thing the Europeans and North Americans are not afraid to model is the contemporary scene. I suspect if Chris Leigh put too much of the brightly coloured liveries of today in his mags he'd get his ears bent at shows for putting in all that "modern rubbish".

[whart57]

Since we started mentioning possible overseas modelling projects I have started an "Overseas Railways worth modelling" topic in the Overseas Railways section

[Zomboid]

This thread is sort of demonstrating that to many overseas modelling = European with recognition of American modelling. There is a whole world out there.

That's because of what's readily available, I imagine. China, Japan and Australia can be done with a large wallet from the UK, anything else and you're going to have to scratch build a lot of it.

I'd love to do something with African railways personally, but I can't solder a turnout without mangling it, and it takes me 2 attempts to build a plastic cornerstone kit, so until it gets a substantial RTR availability...

[runs as required]

I'd love to do something with African railways personally, ...

I agree, but haven't really persevered.

Are there rtr models of SAR stock - or of Algerian/N African Francophone railways?

dh

[brack]

You can buy 12mm track for metre or 3'6" gauge in H0. Or choose a scale that allows use of 9mm or 16.5mm track.

[whart57]

 

I think you're right about TTm. It is one of the combinations defined in the NEM but based on the internationally accepted scale of 1:120 for TT.  In 3mm/ft scale 9mm gauge is of course spot on for 3 foot gauge but a tad narrow for metre gauge which, if my maths is correct, should be 9.8 mm.

 

Just as an aside, I'm posting prototype and model pics, people can judge whether the 0.8mm matters.

 

 

 

  

[Andy Hayter]

I agree, but haven't really persevered.

Are there rtr models of SAR stock - or of Algerian/N African Francophone railways?

dh

 

You could probably make a fist of doing parts of the Moroccan ONCF system.  Many of the mainline locomotives, freight wagons and coaching stock are either based on SNCF designs or are purchases from the SNCF surplus stock - some (maybe all) DF115 are still running with their CC72100 Fret livery and just the Fret logos removed. 

 

Suburban stock and some of the freight locomotives would be more of a challenge though.

 

EDIT:  for CC72100 please read CC72000

[doctor quinn]

Given that a lot of the railways outside Europe, the Americas and Australasia use export models of GM and GE locos or Chinese locos, the Frateschi and Bachmann Chinese ranges would be worth a look. For myself I quite like the Aqaba Railway in Jordan as a possibility

[Pacific231G]

I agree, but haven't really persevered.

Are there rtr models of SAR stock - or of Algerian/N African Francophone railways?

dh

Depending on era, Francophone North Africa- the Mahgreb essentially, may be relatively easy, at least for SG.

I'm not sure about Tunisia but  a large part of Algeria's railways were owned by the PLM. For a while the entire network was a region of the SNCF. and even after independence used a lot of the same stock.

It's a fair few years since I was in Morocco but I  travelled on ONCF's network from Tangier to Fes and, as Andy says, the whole thing was decidedly French in everything except the architecture of some of the stations and the use of typically Berber tents by the PW crews. In both cases the stock would need repainting but in general appeared to be almost identical to its French equivalents. .

For example this loco built by Alsthom

http://servimg.com/u/10/01/03/16/e130410.jpg

[EddieB]

 

Perhaps they  should have a separate gallery for all the "foreign" painters so that those who only want to see Constables, Turners, Gainsboroughs etc. won't have their eyes offended. .

.

They do have a separate one for British painters. The original Tate Gallery on Millbank, now restyled as Tate Britain. Nearest station: Pimlico - where you don't need a passport to visit (may change under Brexit).

[Suzie]

South Africa might be possible:-

 

 

And did Iran not buy some pacers...

 

 

Not sure if this particular one is rtr, but should be possible.

 

[298]

That's because of what's readily available, I imagine. China, Japan and Australia can be done with a large wallet from the UK, anything else and you're going to have to scratch build a lot of it.

 

Im babysitting a Cuban collection at the moment, which consists of German, Czech, Russian, American, Chinese. (Canadian, British, French, Romanian, Spanish not shown). Apart from the Railcar which is actually from Cuba, all is RTR or from kits.

 

[Craigw]

Isn't "ramming their interests down the throats of others" precisely what those haranguing magazine editors about "foreign rubbish" are doing. It's also insulting to those of us who do model overseas prototypes to have our work decried as "rubbish" simply for doing what we do. That is prejudice.

 

Personally I judge model railways, layouts and individual items, firstly by whether the modeller has captured the essence of the prototype, then whether the modeller has attempted something new or original. Only then does my own personal interests get a look in. I would settle for magazine editors doing the same.

 

As for overseas mags covering UK railways I can only report that Dutch language ones do. However there is one major - and self-inflicted block - and that is the UK's unique approach to scale and gauge. We have OO, the rest of the world (including Commonwealth countries) use HO. Our N is 1:148, everyone else's is 1:160, TT is 1:101.6 in the UK, 1:120 everywhere else. Even our Gauges O and 1 are different. It would be a different thread to explain that the traditional excuse of the smaller British loading gauge is rubbish, but those different scales do make for a hurdle to overcome. From a UK perspective there is a whole world out there, from everyone else's perspective there is also a whole world out there but Britain is only a small part of it. That does seem to be a surprise to some Brits.

 

As someone who lives in Australia, I can assure you that the prejudice you complain of exists here and in every single other country. I have seen many, many times people walk past exhibition layouts without a second glance because they are foreign and that includes based on other state systems! MRJ has had a few layouts in it, featured not because they are foreign but because they are examples of exceptional modelling and that is surely the reason for including them. I was involved for quite a few years with the local magazine (Australian Model Railway Magazine) writing articles and doing reviews. They have had precious little foreign articles, primarily because others do it better. the same situation applies in the UK too. Start diversifying a magazine too much and it becomes the jack of all trades and master of none.

 

Your comments about scale are also extremely simplistic. Dimensional liberties are routinely taken with Australian locomotives and rolling stock to make them in HO scale because we used smaller loading gauges than many other countries. A similar situation would apply to UK models. European, UK and US O gauges are all different too - who is right?

 

There is a whole world outside of every other country too. Most people, in most countries model what they are familiar with which is the local railways. 

 

Craig W

[whart57]

As someone who lives in Australia, I can assure you that the prejudice you complain of exists here and in every single other country. I have seen many, many times people walk past exhibition layouts without a second glance because they are foreign and that includes based on other state systems! MRJ has had a few layouts in it, featured not because they are foreign but because they are examples of exceptional modelling and that is surely the reason for including them. I was involved for quite a few years with the local magazine (Australian Model Railway Magazine) writing articles and doing reviews. They have had precious little foreign articles, primarily because others do it better. the same situation applies in the UK too. Start diversifying a magazine too much and it becomes the jack of all trades and master of none.

 

Your comments about scale are also extremely simplistic. Dimensional liberties are routinely taken with Australian locomotives and rolling stock to make them in HO scale because we used smaller loading gauges than many other countries. A similar situation would apply to UK models. European, UK and US O gauges are all different too - who is right?

 

There is a whole world outside of every other country too. Most people, in most countries model what they are familiar with which is the local railways. 

 

Craig W

 

I have no problem with people walking by a layout because it's not of a prototype they are interested in. I do it myself (OMG another N gauge four track mainline .....). It's the people who harangue others with their prejudices and seek to browbeat magazine editors into keeping out models and layouts because they are "foreign" that I was objecting to. Of course most model what they are familiar with, but there is a line between being attracted to the familiar and being hostile to the foreign, a line that in the UK with our current febrile politics is being constantly crossed.

[whart57]

Your comments about scale are also extremely simplistic. Dimensional liberties are routinely taken with Australian locomotives and rolling stock to make them in HO scale because we used smaller loading gauges than many other countries. A similar situation would apply to UK models. European, UK and US O gauges are all different too - who is right?

 

It did, and does. The mistake British modellers made was to formalise those "liberties". That means that when technology improved and smaller motors became available that locos didn't shrink to a proper HO size when updated models came out but stayed with the top heavy OO. A modern Bachman carries that legacy even though it doesn't need to.

[Craigw]

I have no problem with people walking by a layout because it's not of a prototype they are interested in. I do it myself (OMG another N gauge four track mainline .....). It's the people who harangue others with their prejudices and seek to browbeat magazine editors into keeping out models and layouts because they are "foreign" that I was objecting to. Of course most model what they are familiar with, but there is a line between being attracted to the familiar and being hostile to the foreign, a line that in the UK with our current febrile politics is being constantly crossed.

 

As I stated in my post, exactly the same thing happens here. I was involved for a good number of years with our local magazine and the same abuse and remarks were received by the magazine if they covered foreign modelling. Nothing changes and it has precious little to do with politics despite your attempts to draw a very long bow and draw them together. There are people here who model over seas railways too. Some model them because they are interested in the prototype, others collect brands and there are some who model US or UK especially because it is so cheap compared to the local models. (a NSWGR D50 class without DCC retails for $680 - about 410 GBP)

 

The attitude is world wide. One of the few areas where people actively model a foreign prototype is military modelling, where modelling the forces of the Third Reich outnumbers any other area of interest.

 

I am a seventh generation Australian and am often asked why I model the GWR rather than our local scene. The answer is fairly simple really. I like accurate track work and wheels so model to P4 standards and I like the GWR. If you think you cop abuse for modelling a foreign railway, try adding P4 to the equation!

 

Regards,

 

Craigw

[Chris M]

I have no problem with people walking by a layout because it's not of a prototype they are interested in. I do it myself (OMG another N gauge four track mainline .....). It's the people who harangue others with their prejudices and seek to browbeat magazine editors into keeping out models and layouts because they are "foreign" that I was objecting to. Of course most model what they are familiar with, but there is a line between being attracted to the familiar and being hostile to the foreign, a line that in the UK with our current febrile politics is being constantly crossed.

N gauge four track mainline layouts are the greatest layouts known to mankind. Love em. ❤ . Don't know how anybody couldn't find them fascinating whether foreign or British based. I am in no way biased but mine is in this month's Hornby Magazine.

 

We all have our own likes and dislikes besides whether foreign or not. Layout type and or scale will cause some people to stop and look and others to walk past. I tend to walk past cameo layouts - there are some fascinating ones but I find most of them boring. Others find all cameo layouts very interesting. That's fine and nobody is right or wrong, just the same as being interested or not in foreign based layouts.

[Suzie]

You mean it is possible to build N-gauge layouts bigger than 2' x 4' with 180 degree curves at both ends?

[Craigw]

It did, and does. The mistake British modellers made was to formalise those "liberties". That means that when technology improved and smaller motors became available that locos didn't shrink to a proper HO size when updated models came out but stayed with the top heavy OO. A modern Bachman carries that legacy even though it doesn't need to.

 

No it does not. An NMRA RP110 profile wheel is 2.7mm wide.  Do a few sums on the impact that will have on a typical British steam or diesel locomotive modelled to 3.5mm scale. This is a problem faced in our local modelling scene as the earlier NSW locos and wagons were comparable to the UK loading gauge. 

 

You can have the choice of a top heavy legacy or a widened bottom sadly. changing the UK scene to HO scale will introduce a whole new set of issues.

 

Craig W

[whart57]

You want to hear the arguments within the 3mm Society over whether 14.2mm gauge is really practical if you want outside cylinders. Their finescale wheels are a tad over scale width. Wheels wider than scale is an issue, but it's not only the UK that has that issue, and not all UK loco designs would have problems, BR standards would have fewer issues than pre-Group 4-4-0s. If the Greenly OO compromise had not been standardised on in the 1950s manufacturers would have found solutions, wider splashers, piston rods off centre in cylinders - all the tricks EM gauge and finescale 3mm scale modellers have to apply to overcome that issue.

[EddieB]

One aspect of this discussion that seems to have been overlooked is whether there are commercial ties between the model railway press that serve to influence their content in favour of proprietary British outline models. Previous discussions have speculated whether magazine reviews are impartial, given that such reviews sell magazines and an unfavourable (albeit honest) review might stem the supply of future loaned models for review. There would appear to be less of a tie-in with overseas models, whose availability for review is often down to retailers loaning models on a less frequent basis.

 

To me, taken as a whole, the current range of magazines tend toward greater connection with the major manufacturers/importers and rtr products than in the past. They are unlikely to bite the hands that feed them - and overseas prototype or any scratch built models put less food on their tables than promoting Hornmann and Bachby products.