Is Overseas Modelling Interest Declining?

[whart57]

Regarding HOe, what does the "e" stand for?

[brack]

I'd guess it might be etroite, as in French for narrow? With H0m being metrique? I can't think of a German equivalent that'd give you an e. H0f is feldbahn, but that is very definitely a German originated scale/gauge combination.

[EddieB]

Except of course the blatant racially motivated bigoted attacks on Polish* people and community centres following the Brexit vote, which resulted in fatalities (yes, plural). No such attacks on British nationals in Poland or anywhere else on the Continent have taken place. Not one. Ever.

 

*and other non-British nationals as well, IIRC

 

I was hoping this thread could stay out of the 'little England' sentiments that governed said Brexit vote, but now they're surfacing I'd be compelled to counter them, exposing it for what it is. I expect a lock on this thread fairly soon, for which I feel no responsibility at all

I don't know what gets reported in your country, but that's an incomplete picture. Think of football hooliganism - there have been instances of violence both by and against English supporters, including fatalities.

 

I won't go into details, but once I was nearly assaulted and my cameras damaged by a very drunk Polish engine driver (this after the fall of the Berlin Wall) who was outraged that I was foreign, appeared wealthy (camera gear) and on my own, or something. It was only the intervention of his colleagues that got me free. Most Britons "of colour" that have visited Central and Eastern Europe usually have a few stories of racial abuse, if not necessarily violence, though it does happen.

 

"Little England sentiments" were but a small proportion of the Brexit vote and not the sole preserve of the UK.

 

Can we now please consign nationalism to the refuge of scoundrels and stay on topic?

[EddieB]

I'd guess it might be etroite, as in French for narrow? With H0m being metrique? I can't think of a German equivalent that'd give you an e. H0f is feldbahn, but that is very definitely a German originated scale/gauge combination.

My understanding too, even in German speaking countries. Apparently there are also HOi (Industriebahn, 6.5mm) and HOp (Parkbahn, 4.5mm) recognised.

[Andy Hayter]

I'd guess it might be etroite, as in French for narrow? With H0m being metrique? I can't think of a German equivalent that'd give you an e. H0f is feldbahn, but that is very definitely a German originated scale/gauge combination.

 

Could well have been that e= eng = narrow, but I am more than happy to accept Dutch Master's explanation.

[runs as required]

This is Cape gauge, the only remaining line to have it in NL.

 

 

You might try sourcing one of those 'Cape Dutch'  SAR  Henschel/NBL condensing 4-8-4s to complement the little Kettle on the line.

  dh

[jjb1970]

Narrow gauge is one of those subjects that means very different things depending on subject choice, encompassing as it does railways from small temporary field railways and light railways through to railways which are full size heavy rail networks which to all intents and purposes are pretty much equivalent to standard gauge operations but with narrower gauge track (e.g. Japan, South Africa). I love Swiss narrow gauge, as railways like the RhB have a real charm, exist in a magnificent landscape and are very modellable given the availability of excellent RTR models but I’m scatter brained enough as it is without branching into yet more interests. I find that the heavier narrow gauge railways don’t feel like narrow gauge railways at all, the loading gauge in Japan feels pretty similar to UK loading gauge, unlike our railway they have double deck coaching stock on their narrow gauge system.

For the sort of narrow gauge which tends to be what modellers think about, I’m really looking forward to doing some WW1 field railway dioramas using the forthcoming Bachmann models and combining my liking for model soldiers, WWi history and railways.

[Bristol_Rich]

As we're posting images of continental stuff here is a pic of my scratch built Swedish Railways 891mm (Swedish 3') gauge Z4p in 1/35 scale

 

Z4p-1.jpg

 

Z4p-2.jpg

 

This and it's accompanying rolling stock will be exhibited at the Lydney Exhibition is September...

[whart57]

As we're posting images of continental stuff

 

And why not? In the same spirit here is my contribution of "foreign rubbish"

 

 

 

Btw, what would be the correct appellation of 3mm scale on 9mm gauge track to represent metre gauge prototypes? Andrew Burnham described this as TTm when it appeared in CM but that doesn't quite gel with me. To me that implies 1:120 scale.

[F-UnitMad]

Oi!! With all these pics we'll be accused of "ramming" 'foreign rubbish' down Arthur's throat!!!

 

More please!

[whart57]

during summer days in the 50's and early 60's, a pair of these brought families to the beach on 15 coach trains in rapid time!

 

I can't remember where I saw it but there was a couple of good photographs of the chaos on the first summer Sunday after the Amsterdam-Zandvoort tramline was closed. Queues for the buses went out of the bus station and right down the street, and then there was a pic of the buses they were waiting for stuck in the traffic on the road to Haarlem. The tram used to run on a reserved track and wasn't delayed by congestion on the road of course.

 

Do you know if the impact in Rotterdam on summer Sundays when the RTM finally closed was the same?

[wollastonblue]

With my modelling I always look at the bigger picture, not just the stock. Overseas modelling gives me more in terms of building plastic kits, the Faller, Kibri, Vollmer etc ranges give you a lot more than say Wills, Gaugemaster, Ratio etc. Buildings kits are something I personally think is lacking in british modelling, and it does put me off modelling the UK scene.

 

My current layout is based on the RhB in Switzerland, but I have never set foot in the country. Likewise with my new fascination for US railroads, and I am planning a HO switching layout. I know my son would like us to build a OO layout to run Thomas, and Gordon on, but after previous experience I don't like RTP building, or the current range of kits or card kits available. So he may have to build his own.

 

I do believe there is a market for plastic buildings kits for the UK scene, even maybe as big as Faller, but who will dip their toe into the market? 

[Pacific231G]

My understanding too, even in German speaking countries. Apparently there are also HOi (Industriebahn, 6.5mm) and HOp (Parkbahn, 4.5mm) recognised.

Unless it's changed very recently, according to MOROP's NEM,  H0i and H0f are the same 1:87th scale on 6.5mm gauge track. The f is feldbahn in German and the i is industrielle in French. It's a more accurate scale/gauge combination than H0e to represent the majority of industrial NG lines that used 600mm gauge than H0e, H0p is new .

.

Because they're mainly intended to ensure compatibility between manufacturers, the NEM narrow gauge definitions are based on taking the standard gauge of a smaller supported scale to give the nearest equivalent to a band of gauges.

No suffix covers standardish gauges from 1250-1700mm but fairly to absolutely accurate for standard gauge of 1435mm ,

m (metre) covers 850<1250m gauge ,

e (etroite or Egger) represents 650mm < 850mm gauge   

i (french) or f (german) represents 400 < 650mm gauge 

and p (which is new) covers 300<400mm (15inch gauge is 381mm and is used in continental Europe for example by the Lilliputbahn in Vienna)

 

For example; H0 scale  uses TT's 12mm gauge to cover gauges around a metre, N scale's 9mm gauge to represent gauges around 760mm (the "standard" narrow gauge in the former Austro-Hungarian empire) , Nm uses Z scale's 6.5mm gauge to represent metre gauge and H0f uses the same gauge to represent prototypes gauges of 500-700mm 

0p would be the same as 09

The whole table is here http://www.morop.org/downloads/nem/fr/nem010_f.pdf in French and here http://www.morop.org/downloads/nem/de/nem010_d.pdf

interestingly both use the i suffix for H0i etc. with a note that in German speaking countries you can use f instead if you want to.

 

The advantage of this approach is that things like wheelsets, chassis, and even track from the smaller scale will be available to the narrow gauge modeleller though at the expense of some accuracy of gauge. The NMRA took a different approach and defined narrow gauges more precisely with HOn3 (three foot gauge) using the exactly correct gauge of 10.5mm. and HOn30 using the not quite so exactly correct gauge of 9mm. The British scale of OOn3 using 12mm gauge track is also exactly correct for three foot gauge railways and was once quite popular. .

[Pacific231G]

And why not? In the same spirit here is my contribution of "foreign rubbish"

 

finished_model_email.JPG

 

 

Btw, what would be the correct appellation of 3mm scale on 9mm gauge track to represent metre gauge prototypes? Andrew Burnham described this as TTm when it appeared in CM but that doesn't quite gel with me. To me that implies 1:120 scale.

It's interesting that the British, who were so wedded to imperial measures that Spooner had to define the 600mm gauge he used for the Ffestiniog as 1ft 11 ⁵/₈ ins. adopted metre gauge rathe than 3ft or 3ft 6ins as the secondary standard gauge for India.

 

I think you're right about TTm. It is one of the combinations defined in the NEM but based on the internationally accepted scale of 1:120 for TT.  In 3mm/ft scale 9mm gauge is of course spot on for 3 foot gauge but a tad narrow for metre gauge which, if my maths is correct, should be 9.8 mm.

 

BTW both the NMRA and MOROP recommend that specific combinations of scale and gauge should be stated rather than attempting to fit them into the standard shorthand appelations.

 

Unlike the NMRA, MOROP have not attempted to define the proto. scales on the sensible grounds that their afficianados can look after their own standards.

[Arthur]

Oi!! With all these pics we'll be accused of "ramming" 'foreign rubbish' down Arthur's throat!!!

More please!

Old dear, I do seem to have ruffled some feathers.

 

When mainstream UK modelling magazines find an appetite amongst their readers for foreign railways let me know. I won't hold my breath.

 

And please find the post where I referred to foreign rubbish. As I still have a good bit if US outline stuff that would be rather unlikely.

 

.

[whart57]

TTm is one of the combinations defined in the NEM but based on the internationally accepted scale of 1:120 for TT.  In 3mm/ft scale 9mm gauge is of course spot on for 3 foot gauge but a tad narrow for metre gauge which, if my maths is correct, should be 9.8 mm.

 

TTm scales out as 1080mm gauge, which makes it as much too broad as my 3mm scale use of 9mm gauge track is too narrow. Perhaps I should call it TT3m

 

Regarding Imperial measurements and awkward scale ratios, older books (1950s and earlier) describe Gauge 3 (same scale as G) as 17/32" to the foot. Best of luck figuring out the inches with that. One of the great things with 3mm scale is ease of conversion, even down to Plastikard - 10 thou is 1 scale inch thick, 20 thou is 2 scale inches, 40 thou is 4 scale inches and so on. Quite useful when making buildings with nothing better than a couple of photographs to work from.

[whart57]

Old dear, I do seem to have ruffled some feathers.

 

When mainstream UK modelling magazines find an appetite amongst their readers for foreign railways let me know. I won't hold my breath.

 

And please find the post where I referred to foreign rubbish. As I still have a good bit if US outline stuff that would be rather unlikely.

 

.

 

They won't find an appetite if they run away from the small vocal minority who bend their ears at shows. Chris Leigh's explanation also stated that the number of readers attracted and the number of readers repelled were about the same. That vocal minority are the ones "ramming their opinions down people's throats" (to use your words) yet you defend them and attack those who merely ask for a bit of space for the best examples of overseas modelling.

 

I must confess though I do not understand why those national purists do get so upset. What nerve would be jangling if the featured layout in RM, BRM or MR was that excellent Belgian layout featured in CM a couple of months back? Probably the same one that regards not being ripped off by mobile phone companies when travelling in Europe as surrendering to Hitler.

[F-UnitMad]

And please find the post where I referred to foreign rubbish. As I still have a good bit if US outline stuff that would be rather unlikely.

.

That's why "rammed" was in double quotation marks - a direct quote of your word, & 'foreign rubbish' in single quotation marks - a quotation from elsewhere in the Thread

Your interest in US outline was duly noted. You still came into the thread swinging a pretty big bat. quite funny really, for people with a sense of humour like mine, which also led to my post.

[Pacific231G]

Exactly, these are rare exceptions, one in several years of Great Model Railroads. Rice writes on US modelling, not UK modelling, his US books are on US themes.

 

Let's not pretend that there is any large scale appetite for the railways of another country in the mainstream magazines.

 

They are occasional features. Presumably because the editors know they are of limited appeal to a general railway modelling audience.

 

.

Surely Arthur, the reason for including a layout in a magazine is that it's a good layout. It's an example of what a modeller has been able to achieve that can inspire other modellers. Inevitably, the great majority of layouts built by British modellers will be based on British prototypes (and the equivalent will generally be true of modellers in most countries). but a sizeable number will base their models on other railways. You should expect a mainstream magazine to reflect the scope of the hobby as a whole. The vast majority model post grouping standard gauge railways in 4mm/ft scale so does that mean that there is no place for O, N, narrow gauge, or pre-grouping layouts? Clearly not so why should the choice of prototype exclude certain layouts from the mainstream?

This attitude- that because a model is based on a non-British prototype it is of no interest to the vast majority of modellers- does seem to be peculiar to railway modellers. I've seen absolutely no sign of it in aero modellers, ship modellers or military modellers "Oh that's a Dutch coaster, I don't want to see that on our pond"

 

It's also a very limiting attitude. Looking at the motive power on my own small layout, the most frequent performers are a trio of consolidations built in Glasgow.  The layout is set in France. The couplers I use were made in the USA and the very typically French station fencing is from Wills. Techniques for buildings, scenery, tracklaying, ballasting, wiring, operating, and detailing are exactly the same as I'd use if I was modelling a Great Western branch line and my next layout will certainly include some bullhead track. 

 

By the way, do you think the BBC get many complaints from Radio Three listeners about the number of foreign composers whose music they play or the National Gallery from its visitors for exhibiting so many paintings by Rembrandt, Vermeer, Monet and Van Gogh?  Perhaps they  should have a separate gallery for all the "foreign" painters so that those who only want to see Constables, Turners, Gainsboroughs etc. won't have their eyes offended. .

.

[Robatron86]

Well, this has been quite an entertaining read...

 

I'd say no, overseas interest is doing rather well at the moment.

[Southernman46]

Agreed - I have revived my interest in the 1980's SNCB - bloody eye-watering prices for the models though.

[F-UnitMad]

Agreed - I have revived my interest in the 1980's SNCB - bloody eye-watering prices for the models though.

The prices of EU models in particular leads me to ask - is interest in Overseas railways a different thing to actually modelling Overseas railways, & a decline in modelling (if there is one) does not neccesarily mean a decline in interest..??

[Guest]

The prices of EU models in particular leads me to ask - is interest in Overseas railways a different thing to actually modelling Overseas railways, & a decline in modelling (if there is one) does not neccesarily mean a decline in interest..??

 

Well, my interest in overseas railways has increased on par with my interest in UK railways declining. The overseas interest has always been there, but perhaps a little dormant. The interest in modelling overseas railways is much newer (to me), and yes, the price of European HO models has had a lot of bearing on that. Pipe dreams of a 4-track roundie are totally and utterly unaffordable. As I slowly began to embrace the idea of a micro/small BLT European layout, costings in my head began to make more sense. A couple of locos, a multiple unit and some freight stock would be ample and are just about economically viable to me. Also, I know that I'm fickle... a larger layout would never get finished but something smaller might just stand a chance.

[Bernard Lamb]

The prices of EU models in particular leads me to ask - is interest in Overseas railways a different thing to actually modelling Overseas railways, & a decline in modelling (if there is one) does not neccesarily mean a decline in interest..??

Probably true but only up to a point.

A decline in modelling due to cost will lead to a decline in chances to see Overseas models. Which could well lead to a decline in interest.

The closure of outlets for both models and literature must also have some influence on the degree of interest with the general public.

Motor Books always had a few browsers of railway literature amongst people who had gone in with a very different original interest. The price situation has been done to death and is political, so I am not going there.

I just wonder if they were starting today with thoughts of building Tornado if it would have ever got off the ground. It is not just models that are affected.

Bernard

[whart57]

I never really understood the point of Tornado