Is Overseas Modelling Interest Declining?

[jjb1970]

In fairness to British modellers, it is surprising just how many people you meet who are interested in overseas and weird and wonderful railways. Recently I found out a colleague at work is a huge Marklin 3 rail HO enthusiast and another colleague has an uncle into Swiss HOm. Funnily, I had a colleague at my last office who was into Marklin 3 rail HO, that is a doubly different choice as not only is it overseas but 3 rail AC is different again.

 

The very fact that Peco see it as worthwhile publishing CM is quite heartening for me. And certain shops clearly find enough demand for overseas models to make them a core part of their business which is positive.

[dibber25]

Are we talking of a drop in interest in Overseas Modelling among British modellers or a drop in interest of non-British prototypes generally? I subscribe to the Dutch language "Rail Magazine" and the quality and variety of the layouts published by them has risen markedly over the last ten years or so. The efforts of Artitec have also made modelling the NS a lot easier and as they are still regularly bringing out stuff they must be selling what they have. My occasional perusals of Model Railroader and French and German magazines don't give me the impression that Americans are losing interest in American prototypes or the French and Germans in their own railways either.

 

So I presume we are talking of a fall in British modellers taking on overseas prototypes. One reason might be the sheer variety of British locos now available off the shelf in OO. It has to be a pretty obscure prototype if it doesn't appear in the catalogue or back catalogue of one of the manufacturers. Prototypes like the LNWR or SECR which were once only possible for kit builders can now be contemplated by those who make the sign of the cross when confronted with a soldering iron. I can well imagine that has resulted in modellers, tired of an endless fare of West Country branchlines, to look at the British scene anew

 

I would also contend that British modellers of the overseas prototypes fall into two categories, those who have some commitment to a particular prototype and those who just want to try something different. At least we don't get the Ashburton-im-Steyertal type of layouts anymore, but the pages of CM do often contain a small layout of a less usual European prototype, Portugal or Italy say, where the builder starts by saying "I saw a such and such on the stand of Boxshifters-R-Us at a show and thought it would make the basis of a new layout". Perhaps these are the modellers now put off by the falling pound against the euro or distracted by the increased range of British outline models.

 

Regarding CM I do hope it survives and doesn't go the way of other magazines. However I do chafe at the insularity of the other mags. Brexit happened years ago as far as the British model railway press is concerned. We have magazines that only look at British outline models and other magazines, now one other magazine, that looks at the rest. For PECO publications it probably makes sense from an advertising revenue point of view to split RM and CM but what is the excuse of the other magazines to present a Little Englander view of the world?

The reason we have 'magazines that only look at British outline models' is because of the relentless resistance to overseas subjects from the magazine-buying market in general. We tried very hard with Model Rail International as both a supplement and a standalone magazine. The supplements were berated - including by posters on RMweb - and we could never convince the doubters that there were 32 EXTRA pages. We were told repeatedly that we'd wasted 32pp on 'foreign rubbish' to the extent that even now, overseas modelling is known in the office as 'foreign rubbish'. Some readers simply refused to believe that the overseas pages were extra, so in the end we dropped the International supplements and reduced the mag size by 32pp. The supplements were intended to boost circulation in those issues but circulation remained the same. The extra people who bought the mag because it had overseas coverage were balanced out by those who didn't buy it because it had overseas coverage. As a modeller of overseas subjects myself, I loved to include it and write about it but sadly, the overall market is insular and views any page of overseas coverage as a page of good British coverage that's lost. (CJL)

[runs as required]

My own interests are linked to those countries I've spent time in, it goes beyond that however as it is not just spending time and being familiar with a country but also to some extent falling in love with it. ....

I love Italian railways and part of that enthusiasm derives from a love of Italy..

That is so true of me.

But there is a political Brexit quasi Nationalist aspect levering itself into contemporary British discourse - particularly among the elderly (who by the look of it make up the majority at exhibitions). I'm in my eightieth year and ought to be conventionally harking back to the 'golden years' of a bankrupt LNER and Mallard,

 

But have had the good fortune in my working life to have been exposed early on to Dutch railways visions and strategy while working for BR(E) in the early 1960s, and afterwards to East African railway developments (particularly Tazara) in the 1970s.

Since then I had the extraordinary luck to have been deeply involved with EU collaboration with French, Portuguese, and later, extended work with Italians, on integrated transportation and urbanisation in Italy, Ethiopia and Mozambique (connecting here back to Eiffel and Portugal).

 

I have to concede that sadly I'm in the minority in these (for me regrettable) times.

 

dh

 

Ed I was obliged to substitute quasi for come (as in Chorlton ###### Hardy)

[john new]

As a snapshot observation as I've recently been looking for N-gauge US outline stock.

 

Of the 3 shows local to me that I've been to in the last couple of months (2 small & 1 medium size) all three had at least one overseas model that I can remember seeing and of the three layouts one I regarded as my best in that show.

 

Of the three shows only at one was there a trader offering non-U.K. rolling stock and luckily for both the trader and myself he had some 2nd hand items I was interested in and which I bought a few of.

 

As for the 5 x toy shop & model traders in reach of me locally all are selling railway models, all sell 00 and most also N (one has no N) and two also have some O scale. Other than the kits for war-gamers there is nothing stocked for overseas interests other than some narrow-gauge items at the two proper model shop outlets (Peco shop & Buffers) and even there it was limited.*

 

Pecorama's exhibition has two overseas layouts so they are actively promoting non-UK (might be 3 as I can't remember if the small 009 display is British or not).

 

That suggests about 10% of modelling is actively non-U.K., but purchasing stock requires effort.

 

* Peco may have had their HO specific track too.

[whart57]

The supplements were berated - including by posters on RMweb - and we could never convince the doubters that there were 32 EXTRA pages. We were told repeatedly that we'd wasted 32pp on 'foreign rubbish' to the extent that even now, overseas modelling is known in the office as 'foreign rubbish'. Some readers simply refused to believe that the overseas pages were extra,

 

Sadly, as we are now experiencing beyond our hobby, the people who think in terms of "foreign rubbish" hold that opinion much more forcefully and rigidly than do the more open-minded. It doesn't surprise me that you got an earful from some bigoted types, we do have many with intolerant views in the hobby. They are hopefully a minority and while I understand the imperative to run a business it's a shame that that intolerance is forcing itself on everyone else because of that.

 

Can't you sack those in the office who talk in terms of "foreign rubbish"?  :-)

[Arthur]

 

I have zero interest in continental railways.

 

I do have an interest in US railways, having a G scale 'fun' line in the garden, and having once modelled the UP in Nebraska in n.

 

I don't expect the mainstream UK mag to reflect those interests.

 

There are modelling magazines devoted to the railways of other countries, if that's what you want, buy them. Don't ram your own interests down the throats of others.

 

There is virtually zero coverage of UK railways in the modelling magazines of other countries. I suspect that there is a more active overseas modelling scene in this country than in most others.

 

So please, we are no more, and often less so, bigoted and small minded than many other nations.

 

 

 

.

[PaulRhB]

I have zero interest in continental railways.

 

I do have an interest in US railways, having a G scale 'fun' line in the garden, and having once modelled the UP in Nebraska in n.

 

I don't expect the mainstream UK mag to reflect those interests.

 

There are modelling magazines devoted to the railways of other countries, if that's what you want, buy them. Don't ram your own interests down the throats of others.

 

Isn't the US a different Continent now?

I don't think UK mags need a heavy smattering of Continental models but an occasional one showcasing good modelling and different techniques can open up people who are interested but don't know about the availability of continental models.

[asmay2002]

Sadly, as we are now experiencing beyond our hobby, the people who think in terms of "foreign rubbish" hold that opinion much more forcefully and rigidly than do the more open-minded. It doesn't surprise me that you got an earful from some bigoted types,

I don't think these are any different from those who talk about "Swindon Rubbish, Derby Rubbish or Thompson rubbish".  There are a lot of small minded people within the UK context let alone outside it. And please, just because Fotress Euriope has an bullying, isolanist, protection obesssed attitude doesn't mean Brexiteers are mirror images of their biggotry as the remoaners would have it.   Many of us are internationalists who just don't want the country ruled by a foreign power.

[whart57]

I don't think these are any different from those who talk about "Swindon Rubbish, Derby Rubbish or Thompson rubbish".  There are a lot of small minded people within the UK context let alone outside it. And please, just because Fotress Euriope has an bullying, isolanist, protection obesssed attitude doesn't mean Brexiteers are mirror images of their biggotry as the remoaners would have it.   Many of us are internationalists who just don't want the country ruled by a foreign power.

 

Oh, please, see Europe and the EU for what it really is, not as the bogeyman the Daily Express writes about.

[PaulRhB]

Veering towards politics chaps

 

 

While there isn't much in the way of print media there is a huge amount of info on forums and it's so easy to translate it now with google etc that it's really no harder than modelling the smaller railways of the UK. On here we have Thai, Czech, German, Swiss, French, Irish, US, Cuban, Chinese to name a few and on other forums I frequent Indian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Argentinian, Brazillian etc etc and in a variety of scales too. I don't think that's a sign of a problem in the hobby as a lot of these modellers also have British layouts and that's just the few that I know directly. Whether the print media could support another is also open as Todays Railways Europe and Locomotives International seem to be successful as they've been in my local two Smiths for a few years now. Similarly the US mags Trains and Model Railroader used to be imported editions and are now UK prints so there must be a demand to make that move

[shortliner]

Similarly the US mags Trains and Model Railroader used to be imported editions and are now UK prints so there must be a demand to make that move

If that is so, how come we still have to wait so long to get our copies??? - I've just had my August copy and I believe the USA is basking in the September and about to have the October issues! Have you seen RMC in UK Newsagents - I certainly haven't.

[whart57]

Don't ram your own interests down the throats of others.

 

There is virtually zero coverage of UK railways in the modelling magazines of other countries. I suspect that there is a more active overseas modelling scene in this country than in most others.

 

 

Isn't "ramming their interests down the throats of others" precisely what those haranguing magazine editors about "foreign rubbish" are doing. It's also insulting to those of us who do model overseas prototypes to have our work decried as "rubbish" simply for doing what we do. That is prejudice.

 

Personally I judge model railways, layouts and individual items, firstly by whether the modeller has captured the essence of the prototype, then whether the modeller has attempted something new or original. Only then does my own personal interests get a look in. I would settle for magazine editors doing the same.

 

As for overseas mags covering UK railways I can only report that Dutch language ones do. However there is one major - and self-inflicted block - and that is the UK's unique approach to scale and gauge. We have OO, the rest of the world (including Commonwealth countries) use HO. Our N is 1:148, everyone else's is 1:160, TT is 1:101.6 in the UK, 1:120 everywhere else. Even our Gauges O and 1 are different. It would be a different thread to explain that the traditional excuse of the smaller British loading gauge is rubbish, but those different scales do make for a hurdle to overcome. From a UK perspective there is a whole world out there, from everyone else's perspective there is also a whole world out there but Britain is only a small part of it. That does seem to be a surprise to some Brits.

[Arthur]

 

The simple fact of the matter is that foreign railways are a niche interest for most UK modellers. Chris Leigh, who has a lifetime's experience in UK model Railway publishing, has made it quite clear that it is not well received.

 

So bleating on about magazines including 'foreign' content when there is clearly minimal appetite for it, is, by definition, ramming it down people's throats. If they had the appetite, they'd swallow it willingly.

 

I know for certain that the coverage of British Railways in most foreign railway modelling magazines is minimal to zero, just the same, in reverse, as here. I didn't say there was none.

 

I repeat, there are magazines available which cater for these tastes, buy them if that's what you want. Don't expect every magazine to cater for every interest.

 

.

[Arthur]

And let's keep politics out of it, my comments are strictly limited to railway modelling.

 

 

 

So your statement is actually proven false and could be classified as 'alternative facts' or more frankly put: plain lies

 

Would you care to rephrase that statement.

 

.

[Arthur]

 

So you are calling me a liar?

 

.

[shortliner]

Oh, Oh! here comes the any minute now!

[Mad McCann]

Sadly, as we are now experiencing beyond our hobby, the people who think in terms of "foreign rubbish" hold that opinion much more forcefully and rigidly than do the more open-minded. It doesn't surprise me that you got an earful from some bigoted types, we do have many with intolerant views in the hobby. They are hopefully a minority and while I understand the imperative to run a business it's a shame that that intolerance is forcing itself on everyone else because of that.

 

Can't you sack those in the office who talk in terms of "foreign rubbish"?  :-)

 

Much as I wholly understand where you're coming from with this, people are entitled to their own opinions, however backward and closed-minded they are. Probably better not aired in a workplace though.

For what it's worth, I have dabbled with Continental HO in the past and quite enjoyed it. I'm still tempted by it and currently Norway is looking very interesting to me. Dutch and German are consistently interesting and I think the kind of vision shown by these countries in terms of transport inspires in a way the UK has rarely if ever aspired to.

 

D.

[whart57]

The simple fact of the matter is that foreign railways are a niche interest for most UK modellers. Chris Leigh, who has a lifetime's experience in UK model Railway publishing, has made it quite clear that it is not well received.

 

Actually, what Chris Leigh wrote was that it was not well received by some. Unfortunately that small number were very vocal and it would seem aggressive and unreasonable. As you are being.

 

It also does not seem to have occurred to you that in French magazines for example, German and Austrian railways are also foreign. Let's not have the "Fog in Channel, Continent cut off" mindset here. If British layouts feature less in foreign mags than overseas railways feature here, then that is because elsewhere Britain is but one of the dozens of other railway building countries there are.

[Arthur]

Oh, Oh! here comes the 9437lock.jpg any minute now!

No Jack, I won't be kicking anything off, I'm just interested to see how an opinion can be a lie.

 

It's just clarifying for me the attitudes of some and their ability to bring their political views and point scoring into non political topics.

 

.

[Arthur]

and it would seem aggressive and unreasonable. As you are being.

 

It also does not seem to have occurred to you that in French magazines for example, German and Austrian railways are also foreign.

 

So disagreeing with you makes me 'aggressive and unreasonable'. Interesting

 

Maybe hasn't occurred to you that there is much greater integration of 'foreign' railways on the continent than there ever has been with this, island, nation.

 

.

[Neil]

.

 

.... There is virtually zero coverage of UK railways in the modelling magazines of other countries. I suspect that there is a more active overseas modelling scene in this country than in most others.

 

So please, we are no more, and often less so, bigoted and small minded than many other nations.

 

 

 

.

 

Sorry Arthur but this is plain wrong. I subscribe to the French narrow gauge magazine Voie Libre, it often has UK content, both modelling subjects and trade products.

 

I usually travel to the continent a couple of times a year and while there pick up local railway magazines. Modelspoor magazine which majors on Belgian and Dutch subject matter frequently features UK models. Relatively recent examples are Chris Nevard's Brew House Quay and Tim Venton's Clutton.

 

Edit: I should also mention friends in the Hull Miniature Railway Society have for years taken their UK outline layouts to exhibitions in continental Europe where they have been well received with much interest shown.

[Arthur]

 

But nothing in the US mags and nothing that I've ever seen in the mainstream German and French magazines (and yes, I have looked on occaision).

 

There used to be, the internet may have seen them off, shops in this country specialising in non UK railway modelling. Were there ever any purely UK focussed shops in mainland Europe?

 

I stand by my contention. There is as much interest in foreign railway modelling, possibly more, in this country than the reverse.

 

There are magazines catering for that need.

 

.

[PaulRhB]

If that is so, how come we still have to wait so long to get our copies??? - I've just had my August copy and I believe the USA is basking in the September and about to have the October issues! Have you seen RMC in UK Newsagents - I certainly haven't.

Sorry I meant UK distributed not print,

The delay is still there so I assume we maybe get the unsold US returns not put on shelves and still wrapped in bundles? No idea but one way to get rid of the surplus and serve other markets.

[Arthur]

 

Here's an open question.

 

Go to even a smallish provincial exhibition in this country and it will likely include one US online and one European outline layout. The Lydney exhibition, a small Glos. town, had one of each last year.

 

At the other end, Warley has sections devoted to both.

 

 

Do you see British outline layouts at smaller, provincial, French and German exhibitions as a matter of routine? I'm aware of the 'trade' with some of the Dutch exhibitions but how deep does it penetrate?

 

.

[whart57]

So disagreeing with you makes me 'aggressive and unreasonable'. Interesting

 

Maybe hasn't occurred to you that there is much greater integration of 'foreign' railways on the continent than there ever has been with this, island, nation.

 

.

 

Well this was a reasonably good natured discussion until you came along