Is Overseas Modelling Interest Declining?

[PaulRhB]

But nothing in the US mags and nothing that I've ever seen in the mainstream German and French magazines (and yes, I have looked on occaision).

 

 

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There have been several UK layouts in Model Railroader in OO and O and one even featured in their Great Model Railroads special one year. Iain Rice is rather popular and his UK books quoted by several US modellers which lead to his discovery by Kalmbach and writing quite a few articles and at least on US themed book too.

MR has featured Swiss layouts a few times too that I've seen.

Some of the French and German mags share articles with CM and RM so definitely do take UK articles back as well.

[PaulRhB]

Here's an open question.

 

Go to even a smallish provincial exhibition in this country and it will likely include one US online and one European outline layout. The Lydney exhibition, a small Glos. town, had one of each last year.

 

At the other end, Warley has sections devoted to both.

 

 

Do you see British outline layouts at smaller, provincial, French and German exhibitions as a matter of routine? I'm aware of the 'trade' with some of the Dutch exhibitions but how deep does it penetrate?

 

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Well Christopher Payne and others on NGRM certainly regularly exhibit abroad in the Netherlands, France and Germany. There's the Eurotrack Association that holds the show in Southampton featuring clubs from all over Europe and they have a reciprocal agreement for shows over there. There's certainly a strong Dutch connection with several regulars at ExpoNG in Swanley and the likes of Ted Polet who is renowned over here for his UK modelling having contributed to RM for many years.

[whart57]

But nothing in the US mags and nothing that I've ever seen in the mainstream German and French magazines (and yes, I have looked on occaision).

 

There used to be, the internet may have seen them off, shops in this country specialising in non UK railway modelling. Were there ever any purely UK focussed shops in mainland Europe?

 

I stand by my contention. There is as much interest in foreign railway modelling, possibly more, in this country than the reverse.

 

There are magazines catering for that need.

 

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Are there any shops specialising in just German railways in this country? Or French, or Italian? I need to point out to you again that the world is not divided into Brit and non-Brit. If you count American, German, French etc all as "foreign", then don't be surprised if a German regards American, French and British as "foreign". And thus British layouts need to compete for the "foreign" slot with the Yanks. Not surprisingly the Yanks usually win.

[Arthur]

 

Exactly, these are rare exceptions, one in several years of Great Model Railroads. Rice writes on US modelling, not UK modelling, his US books are on US themes.

 

Let's not pretend that there is any large scale appetite for the railways of another country in the mainstream magazines.

 

They are occasional features. Presumably because the editors know they are of limited appeal to a general railway modelling audience.

 

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[Arthur]

Well Christopher Payne and others on NGRM certainly regularly exhibit abroad in the Netherlands, France and Germany. There's the Eurotrack Association that holds the show in Southampton featuring clubs from all over Europe and they have a reciprocal agreement for shows over there. There's certainly a strong Dutch connection with several regulars at ExpoNG in Swanley and the likes of Ted Polet who is renowned over here for his UK modelling having contributed to RM for many years.

Thanks for that Paul but it does not answer my basic question about the likelihood of seeing a UK themed layout, built by a local, at a small, local, exhibition.

 

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[PaulRhB]

Well Felix and others on here are better placed to comment on that if they see the thread as they are part of the UK modular group in Germany. Model shows are more common here as we have lots of small shows, they tend to be bigger shows in Europe from the pictures I've seen including other types of model often too.

I don't think direct comparisons work as the cultures are a bit different, There certainly are a lot of overseas modellers on NGRM writing in perfect English and from all around the world. Even those who model their own countries or other continents actively participate in the UK threads seeing the value in the models over any barriers about subject.

We aren't going to get much definitive evidence again here but I do know that several shows actively invite the UK layouts so there must be a demand from someone. Andreas Schonberg of Minitrains has produced a UK loco and considered another already so I guess that is probably selling more to than just UK modellers as we aren't his biggest market.

[jjb1970]

This thread is sort of demonstrating that to many overseas modelling = European with recognition of American modelling. There is a whole world out there.

[Talltim]

But nothing in the US mags and nothing that I've ever seen in the mainstream German and French magazines (and yes, I have looked on occaision).

 

There used to be, the internet may have seen them off, shops in this country specialising in non UK railway modelling. Were there ever any purely UK focussed shops in mainland Europe?

 

I stand by my contention. There is as much interest in foreign railway modelling, possibly more, in this country than the reverse.

 

There are magazines catering for that need.

 

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But the British shops that specialise in foreign models tend to cover the whole of the rest of the world. Therefore a foreign shop specialising in British models is not the reverse. There are foreign shops that sell British models, but they also cover other foreign (to them) models.

Reading American forums is interesting. To my mind British railways are significantly different to mainland European ones, but to the average American, they are all lumped together (sometimes as Eurotrash! )

[railsquid]

I haven't noticed any paticularly anti-overseas bias on here. I think most modellers want to model what they are familiar with which for most people in the UK is British outline while most American modellers will only really be interested in US outline. I  expect this is also true of German and Japanese modellers.

 

For Japan I can confirm this, it's a big country with lots of railways and a huge (mainly N gauge) model railway scene, and most of the interest is of course orientated towards Japanese outline. However some of the main railway magazines carry regular coverage of overseas railways, I haven't exactly done a methodical study but my impression is the emphasis is more towards European railways (including the UK), possibly because there's lots of variety, and increasingly other Asian countries (particularly anywhere Japanese trains both new and second-hand have been sold). Modelling-wise, there is some coverage of North American and continental European items, but I don't recall ever seeing anything British. It's fairly easy to get hold of North American and continental European (mainly German) items both new and second-hand, but British outline stuff is pretty rare (with the exception of anything inspired by the Rev. Awdry). Same goes for exhibitions - I've seen the odd North American and German layouts, but never anything British.

 

However I'll just leave this interpretation of the APT here for your enjoyment

mokei-tetsudo-shumi-apt-2 by Rail Squid, on Flickr

[whart57]

The differences and similarities between the various European railways would to my mind make for a more interesting discussion than trying to open up insular minds. For one thing you can't lump all European railways into one single basket, there are as many differences between French and German railways as there are between them and British practice. Of course as you head towards the present day then there is a certain homogenising going on, but that includes Britain too. At least since we finally gave up our love affair with slam-door and compartment carriages thirty years after anyone else   No-one else has anything like Southern Electrics or the LT tube though, but then they are niche modelling areas as well.

 

I would contend though that in railway modelling the major differences are as much content as nationality. Main line or local branch, block train running or shunting, steam or diesel. If you take the classic single line branch terminus offering, whether it is based on British, French, German, Dutch, Danish or some other European it will, if steam era, be small tanks pulling short trains, uncoupling, running round, spotting a wagon by the goods shed and then coupling up and going back. If that's what floats your boat then why get so upset if the mag runs an article that is NS or SNCF rather than GWR? Upset to the extent you give the editor an ear-bashing when you see him at a show.

 

American is of course something else, but the reasons are ones of geography. European railways were built to serve existing cities, towns and villages in a relatively densely populated continent, American railways were built to open up a largely undeveloped continent. America is still much densely populated than Europe and from a railway modelling point of view American is about freight, whereas European is passenger with a varying amount of freight.

[runs as required]

Goodness! This thread has deteriorated to events leading up to the 'Ems telegram' or the outbreak of WW i.

 

In the days of hotly worded telegrams causing unecessary offence my old senior partner always insisted we should "sleep on it" before going around to the Cable and Wireless office to dispatch a missive..

Perhaps good advice about computers too ?

dh

[Andy Hayter]

Here's an open question.

 

 

Do you see British outline layouts at smaller, provincial, French and German exhibitions as a matter of routine? I'm aware of the 'trade' with some of the Dutch exhibitions but how deep does it penetrate?

 

.

 

 

 

KInd of.

 

Here in the deeper South of France we have one layout currently doing the circuit that is quasi British.  By which I mean it represents a French port at which a train ferry is docked and the items embarking and disembarking are all UK prototype pre-grouping wagons and ROD locomotives.  The layout represents things as they were in 1916.  

 

Although it claims to be in France it could equally have been on the UK side of the channel given that the scenery is essentially a little open trackside scrub.

 

There have also been a small number of trench layouts where again although based in France, the stock and locomotives are largely British design and manufacture - albeit 60cm narrow gauge prototype.

 

Local exhibitions have also had a series of Italian layouts which have been well received as well as a good selection of generic US layouts - often narrow gauge canyon based fantasies which I see as the modern equivalent of the rabbit warren layout of the 70s and 80s.  These will often be backed up with a Swiss and sometimes a German or Austrian layout.

 

It has to be said however that the majority of layouts are predictably 100% French based post demise of steam.

 

Furthermore unlike the UK where I could go and a visit a reasonable to good exhibition on average perhaps every fortnight without travelling for hours on end, here exhibitions are occasional - frequently held once very 2 years, the nearest being an hours drive away and I frequently (frequently as in not very often per year but often with regards to the exhibitions I visit) have to travel in excess of 2 hours each way.

[whart57]

Goodness! This thread has deteriorated to events leading up to the 'Ems telegram' or the outbreak of WW i.

 

Could be worse, Donald Trump could be a member of RMweb

[APOLLO]

Or the new President Mike Pence !!!!!

 

http://www.officialmikepence.com/

 

Hide your tiny dogs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Brit15

[brianusa]

Over the years, I have dabbled in US N gauge, British OO gauge, LGB, US and Hornby tinplate. No matter the gauge or scale, foreign trains are treated lightly in the US whether in model or magazines and while one may see British or Euro layouts at shows in the UK, this never happens in the US. Indeed the average American modeller has little interest in other than US trains. I run both US and UK trains on my tinplate layout!

 

Brian.

[PaulRhB]

One of the biggest reasons I model something is because I want to recreate a scene or photos so it's not surprising we model what we have most information on, local railways.

Exposure to info and photos of continental rail has vastly increased in the last twenty years through the net. It's much easier for us to get to Europe and see European railways in person so we are more likely to model them than our American friends. Many of us got exposure to American rail mainly through films which wasn't reciprocal for them. So is it really inward looking or xenophobic? I think the US also has a great variety of scenery, traction and liveries that tick many of the boxes that attract us to a subject.

When I've met and chatted to people from other countries on our preserved lines and in Europe they are just as enamoured of what they didn't know was out there. Getting there is harder for them too just like I've travelled all around Europe but never made it to the US, Canada yes and I met up with a friend made over the net modelling the RhB! There also at least one modelling the RhB in the US on here

It's easy to make broad assumptions but there is a lot of interest if people are exposed to it

[Colin_McLeod]

Could be worse, Donald Trump could be a member of RMweb

 

Perhaps he is on RMweb and is one of those members who don't use their real name

[Chris M]

Well there's plenty of foreign interest here

1/20 scale Isle of Man Peveril

1/29 scale Boston & Maine NW2

Circa 1/24 scale German (?) signal box

 

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear

Nice platform though.

 

 

I expect people will walk past this layout because it is G scale rather than because it is confused foreign.

In fact I am sure many people will walk straight past this layout at its first exhibition without even a glance; it will be situated shortly before you get to the Bachmann sales stand at the NEC.

[rue_d_etropal]

I have been exhibiting French themed layouts for a few years in the UK. They usually attract a lot of interest, but that is as much to do with my modelling something different. There is a lot of ignorence out there. Far too many don't actually realise their beloved OO models are running on underscale HO track. I wonder if there might have been more interest in 'foreign' models is the scale had been the same. Then again some might then have realised that foreign trains were actually bigger than Britisjh ones.

I have exhibited at both Eurotrack and ERA, as well as RAMMA in France(as part of C Payne's mini group).

I sometimes feel that the balance of layouts at many exhibitions is not very good. Sometime 2 or 3 USA layouts along with a narrow scale range of British layouts. I am sure that when I first moved up north 30 years ago, one big club exhibition would refuse to have any foreign layouts. I think it is mainly due to limited foreign layout knowledge. I am lucky to have had several layout articles in Continental Modeller, so have got my foot in the door, but how are exhibition managers meant to know about some layouts.  I sometmes think some have an odd foreign and an odd narrow gauge layout, so they can say there is a mix, but I think the bigger shows could have a bigger mix.

Part of the problem is that there are a few but very loud individuals who will voice their opinion, and itis probably rarer for others to congratulate exhibition organisers for having a good mix of scales, gauges and nationalities. Good quality layouts will always attrack interest, but if you keep seeing the same at each exhibition, you might not be so keen to visit.

Although I still model French theme, I am also experimenting with British HO, and I often sneek in British trains onto my French layout. No-one sees to notice.

[Barry Ten]

There's a very nice UK-themed layout built by a French modeller who I believe is on this forum, which appeared in Loco Revue fairly recently.

 

Model Railroader has occasionally carried UK-themed layouts built by both Brits and North Americans. They've also had a Finnish layout, and coverage

of Miniatuur Wunderland.

 

I do think there is a bit of anti-overseas bias among British modellers, but it's only anecdotal. Back when the Rwmeb six foot challenge took place, once

the models were finished, the entrants created summaries of their layouts with a view to helping the voters choose the winning entries. The two entries

that got the least number of "views" (never mind votes) were my French one, and Ian Holmes narrow gauge agricultural layout. In other words, modellers

were much less interested in anything that wasn't either British or UK standard gauge, and they made that decision based on the subject line alone,

before clicking through to look at the models themselves. I found that a bit frustrating; I mean by all means look at my summary and decide it's not

worth a vote, but not even clicking on the topic?

 

I lived in the Netherlands for nearly two decades so, not being able to find UK magazines on a regular basis, I started to buy the Dutch and Belgian

equivalents, as well as going to the local exhibitions. Eventually anything that runs on rails becomes equally interesting in my view.

[rockershovel]

A propos British outline 009 from the Netherlands, a regular on NGRM (although rarely seen here) - Craigcorrie and Dunalistair.

 

Really though, if you are doing 009 you will inevitably trend towards either British or German/Austrian outline, because those are the principal prototype areas and hence, trade support (apart from Warsaw Pact countries, and the highly distinctive Balkan locos which would mean scratch-building)

 

French ng is/was mostly metre gauge and Dutch ng, those Cape-gauge steam trams.

[rockershovel]

Tend to agree about "canyon based fantasies" being the spiritual heirs and successors to "rabbit warren" layouts.

[whart57]

(With a pedant's hat on)  German narrow gauge would not be OO9 but HOe.

 

There was in fact a large 760mm gauge network in the Netherlands, over in the East between Arnhem and the German border. The Gelderse Stoomtram has been modelled in Holland but more often than not in O using 16.5mm gauge track. The Jouef/Eggerbahn tram loco of years past was actually a decent passing resemblance of the Henschel tram locos the GS used though these days I expect etched brass and the like does a better job. As the GS also used 0-6-0T and 0-8-0T locos of the more conventional boiler and cab behind variety for freight, and didn't close till 1957, it might be one of those unfamiliar prototypes that tickles the fancy of a narrow gauge enthusiast. It is actually has decent book coverage too

[PaulRhB]

 German narrow gauge would not be OO9 but HOe.

 

Oi,   how about the metre gauge bits!

 

There was in fact a large 760mm gauge network in the Netherlands, over in the East between Arnhem and the German border. The Gelderse Stoomtram has been modelled in Holland but more often than not in O using 16.5mm gauge track. The Jouef/Eggerbahn tram loco of years past was actually a decent passing resemblance of the Henschel tram locos the GS used though these days I expect etched brass and the like does a better job. As the GS also used 0-6-0T and 0-8-0T locos of the more conventional boiler and cab behind variety for freight, and didn't close till 1957, it might be one of those unfamiliar prototypes that tickles the fancy of a narrow gauge enthusiast. It is actually has decent book coverage too

 

There are some nice scale models of the Henschel tram locos, not sure if Sven is on here but he's a member on NGRM http://www.tramfabriek.nl/

[whart57]

Just a pic I pulled off the web of one of the Gelderland 0-8-0Ts

 

 

I believe they used the same system of drivers with sideplay that Arthur Heywood employed on his 15" gauge locos