a model gravity shunting yard

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I have no idea where to post this, but I found it by accident and thought it rather fun...

 

[Kris]

I remember seeing a model hump shunting yard on the Fleischmann layout some years back.

[Oldddudders]

The late US modeller Don Santel had one featured in a Kalmbach video in the mid-80s. In tune with the times in which it was built, he had trouble getting a switching (shunting) loco to run sufficiently slowly for the purpose, but eventually managed this. He said the layout supports under the hump were like Swiss cheese, where screws had been re-positioned so often to get the hump angle right. His innovation was working retarders, which used compressed air jets to slow cars on their descent.

[hmrspaul]

The late US modeller Don Santel had one featured in a Kalmbach video in the mid-80s. In tune with the times in which it was built, he had trouble getting a switching (shunting) loco to run sufficiently slowly for the purpose, but eventually managed this. He said the layout supports under the hump were like Swiss cheese, where screws had been re-positioned so often to get the hump angle right. His innovation was working retarders, which used compressed air jets to slow cars on their descent.

 

I'm not sure why it would have been difficult to have suitably slow running, the Hornby Dublo Co-Bo I had as a teenager would go incredibly slowly!

 

Anyway, always a difficult subject for modelling, apart from the unrealistic speed of wagons this one suffers because they stop the loco between each drop, whereas the prototype would creep forward at a steady speed. I do like the silly comments on You tube, of course the goods suffered - that's why shock wagons were introduced - but BR still lost a lot of traffic because of damage. My Dad did an investigation on a lot of damage to white goods where they had to go back to the company and suggest that the steel plate they were making the goods out of was too thin, and therefore flexing too much.

 

Paul Bartlett

[edcayton]

Would this not be "relatively" easy to do with motorised wagons and dcc? The retarders and the hump would then be basically scenic only.

 

Ed

[RJS1977]

IIRC the Fleischmann layout was fully automated and (for me) one of the highlights of Warley in past years.

[Kris]

IIRC the Fleischmann layout was fully automated

 

That was my impression of it. I remember the loco going up and releasing the wagons then running round to pick them up before starting the process again.

[Barry O]

Mike Edge has another Layout called CWMAFON which has a gravity yard - its good fun to play with and you need to make sure you don't send *not allowed" wagons ( like loose coal) down the gravity yard.

 

It is very therapeutic and has been around for a long time. Interestingly you need to make sure you have rollable wagons and "non" rollable brake vans as the layout has very few (if any) level sidings - probably the ones serving the working wagon tippler are the only level ones. I think I may have an old picture from one of the Leeds shows at the Corn Exchange showing part of the gravity yard - I'll try and scan it and put it on.

[Michael Edge]

I'll have to correct you there, loaded coal trains are allowed down the yard but a full train of 21T wagons needs to be let go very carefully. The tippler is the only place on the layout which has to be level.

Somebody must have taken some video of the yard in operation, if anyone knows of any I'd like to see it.

Mike

[Barry O]

Mike

 

but we know what happens if you let a set of 21T hoppers go......... inevitably someone puts there hand across the barriers and stops it - then tells you that that has stopped a nasty accident!

 

Or - it runs into a clear road except for the Ks Palvan lurking under the road bridge!

[bigd]

The late US modeller Don Santel had one featured in a Kalmbach video in the mid-80s. In tune with the times in which it was built, he had trouble getting a switching (shunting) loco to run sufficiently slowly for the purpose, but eventually managed this. He said the layout supports under the hump were like Swiss cheese, where screws had been re-positioned so often to get the hump angle right. His innovation was working retarders, which used compressed air jets to slow cars on their descent.

 

I have been considering making a gravity shunting plank, but have been put off by the speed that model wagons reach.

I like the idea of air jet retarders.

I had looked at using the High Level Kits Fly shunter motorising kit, but as I want to gravity shunt empty wagons, as well as full, it did not seem the right solution to me.

I was thinking along the lines of moving magnets under the track. I assume this is the way the cars and buses move outside Liverpool Lime Street.

[Barry O]

Found and scanned a very old photo of the Gravity Yard on Cwmafon ( the photo was taken in the Corn Exchange Leeds in the early 1980s)

 

The gravity yard is on the left with the "king, Queen and Jack" points into the yard. Few wagons in there - which isn't normal - and no bottom end shunter visible. You just drive your train up to the magnet and release into the correct (hopefully!) road. The bottom end shunter can pull the wagons down the yard as required to keep the gravity end of the yard clear.

 

The lines to the right take you into the rest of the world - and yes thats a Q kits Falcon gently throbbing away in the engine sidings.

[Michael Edge]

I don't have many photos of the marshalling yard side of the layout, found this one which shows the slope at the top of the yard. It flattens out down the sidings and is level at the bottom. Originally this was all carefully worked out but baseboard movement has altered the gradients considerably, it's getting a bit old now - the yard wsa first exhibited in Leeds Corn Exchang in 1976, when it formed an extension to my old Wiagn Wallgate layout.

Mike

[Oldddudders]

I like the idea of air jet retarders.

I have a slight concern that air might not be as successful in 4mm UK prototype as it was in 3.5mm US. Virtually all US freight cars for the last century have been bogie vehicles, which in model form lend themselves to being weighty if needed. In 4mm, traditional 4-wheel British wagons weigh rather less, and might be more prone to derailment from any air-jet worthy of the name. A tricky balance to strike.

[shortliner]

Possibly easier with some lowish Noch grass growing in the trackbed, planted around, and disguising, some taller "tooth-brush bristles" to catch on axles. It might need some experiment to find quantity/frequency/spacing/stiffness required

[kevinlms]

I'm not sure why it would have been difficult to have suitably slow running, the Hornby Dublo Co-Bo I had as a teenager would go incredibly slowly!

 

Anyway, always a difficult subject for modelling, apart from the unrealistic speed of wagons this one suffers because they stop the loco between each drop, whereas the prototype would creep forward at a steady speed. I do like the silly comments on You tube, of course the goods suffered - that's why shock wagons were introduced - but BR still lost a lot of traffic because of damage. My Dad did an investigation on a lot of damage to white goods where they had to go back to the company and suggest that the steel plate they were making the goods out of was too thin, and therefore flexing too much.

 

Paul Bartlett

 

I'll bet the company loved that and told him where to go! Now the newer whitegoods must be worse than ever.

 

 

Kevin Martin

[Guest oldlugger]

I rather like the idea of hump shunting in model form; sadly the speed of the wagons in the video destroys the effect. It must be possible with a suitably weighted wagon with some form of friction on the wheels to slow the action down to more scale speeds. The plastic brakes in line with wheels, lightly pressing against the treads might work. Wath yard was (or should that be "wath"?) the classic hump shunting yard in the UK. The S1 Wath Daisies 0-8-4s were the star performers often working double headed (some with booster trailing bogies), which must have been an incredible sight and sound. For a long time now I've had a built O gauge Gladiator Kits S1 0-8-4 in early BR black livery and lightly weathered just waiting for the call. I wish I had the space and dosh to build a layout for it! Really handsome beasts and huge!

 

Cheers

Simon

[edcayton]

I said this earlier but no-one has taken it up. Why could you not have several motorised wagons (using Black Beetle or similar), and control them by DCC ? You would only need one motorised wagon for each "cut".

 

I don't know, and I have never used DCC, but could it be made to work?

 

Ed

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I said this earlier but no-one has taken it up. Why could you not have several motorised wagons (using Black Beetle or similar), and control them by DCC ? You would only need one motorised wagon for each "cut".

Ed

 

Because then it wouldn't be a 'gravity' yard...

[Oldddudders]

I said this earlier but no-one has taken it up. Why could you not have several motorised wagons (using Black Beetle or similar), and control them by DCC ? You would only need one motorised wagon for each "cut".

 

I don't know, and I have never used DCC, but could it be made to work?

Probably - but you're not treating this subject with enough gravity!

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

For the sake of technical accuracy I suppose I ought to say, a gravity yard has no hump, the entire yard slopes. A hump yard has, well erm, a hump. So my post title should be a model Hump Shunting Yard.

 

I can see it would be relatively easy to do in US outline - big freight cars, easy to weight. The trick would be to open the couplers at the right moment, should be straightforward enough with the electromagnets. As someone mentioned earlier, the train should stay on the move as much as possible, if you keep stopping and starting it defeats the object of a hump yard (which is continual switching)

 

If I had the room, this is the sort of daft challenge I would like to have a go at...

 

In this

at 3.17 - 3.24 you can see some sort of trolley thing moving along the track - any idea what it is?

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

You'd need DCC sound though,

[Kris]

I can see it would be relatively easy to do in US outline - big freight cars, easy to weight. The trick would be to open the couplers at the right moment, should be straightforward enough with the electromagnets.

 

As trains only go one way over the hump a permeant magnet should do just as well.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

As trains only go one way over the hump a permeant magnet should do just as well.

 

That's true, except that you don't want to uncouple every car - some will stay in blocks so I figured an electro magnet would allow you replicate the work of the 'pin puller' as he's called.

[Kris]

If you want that then the electromagnet would be the way to go.