Why is this so rarely modelled?

[Guest Max Stafford]

None taken Larry. I understand the point you're making. All my models are finished under daylight bulbs, giving the impression of sunlight and I'm aware of the variables of light, etc.

 

I do believe that in later years as layers of accumulated grit gathered on locos in a heavier manner than was the norm before about 1964, the surfaces affected do seem to reflect more light. You'll notice that on my recent B1 and D49 portraying the 1955-6 era that the finish is a little darker than the two locos.

 

Additionally, there's a bit of an artist's perspective here in that the models are to be seen in their intended environment at a distance and naturally colours appear to lighten the further you are from the subject. Have a look at the horizon in a mountainous area to see what I mean if you're unsure.

 

We had sunlight up here today also so that will also have had an affect on the photos. Viewing the models under a normal 60W tungsten light this evening, they are still pretty dark.

 

That said, it's as much about texture when you're doing an 'extreme' job like this!

 

Dave.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Max Stafford

[Pacific231G]

I hope folk aren't too offended when I say I feel there is a danger of taking colour illustrations of yesteryear too literally. ......

Of course the principals of photography also applies to models and Dave's Britannia Pacific might not be as light in real life as it appears in his photo.

I needed to know the appropriate shade of green for a French post box in the 1950s - as you do - and remembered that a whole scene around a post box in Jacques Tati's Jour de Fete that had recently been released in its colour version (long story). The trouble was that when I examined the scene in detail it had been shot from several different angles and the colours looked totally different in each.

I sometimes think that looking at paintings may be a better guide than photographs as at least you should then be seeing the colours and shades that the artist saw.

[Guest Max Stafford]

You also have to bear in mind that individual people see things differently too in terms of colour perception and the like, so ultimately colour is a rather subjective matter. I tend to go slightly lighter with my own renditions as ultimately, the models will mainly be seen under artificial light, often fluorescent, which can and does flatten and darken things. To counteract this, you need to create your own light, as it were. Additionally, those observations I made about distance come into play too.

Ultimately, that's why I don't worry too much about colour but I'm aware this is pulling us off topic so, having included these models to illustrate a controversial period, I should return our focus there.

For me, the period is interesting in a wider perspective as it's almost as if the entire world was in transition in so many ways, perhaps culminating in the new perspective we gained of our little island in space as filmed by the crew of Apollo 8 on Christmas Day, 1968.

Additionally, from my point of view, that period from 1964 to 1968 reflected by these fading giants coincided with the most spectacular explosion of creativity in the world of popular music ever witnessed and unlikely ever to be repeated.

 

Freddie and the Dreamers notwithstanding...

 

Dave.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Max Stafford

[Guest jim s-w]

I hope folk aren't too offended when I say I feel there is a danger of taking colour illustrations of yesteryear too literally. Colour photos were often over-exposed somewhat so that the negative or transparency would deliver detail in the shadow areas. This is not unusual even today.

 

 

That's very true Larry. However a photo is either right or it's not. It is that black and white. I spent 8 years earning a living finishing photos so you can learn to read an image and see where it's wrong. It's amazing how many images in magazines and books are printed unfinished, either wrong exposure or (more often) printed with a colour cast. As a start look at something you know is neutral grey (such as an ole mast) and it should be grey, not ever so slightly green or magenta. If a grey is wrong then the whole image us also wrong.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Alan76]

Quote: The last true loco operated service (GE main line)

 

Surely not. The ECML Class 91 + Mk IV sets are every bit as true loco hauled as the GE - a completely separate power unit, cabs at each end, capable of being operated completely independently of the stock, used to haul or propel fixed rakes and operated via a DVT when in propelling mode.

 

Alan

[Guest Max Stafford]

Aye, 'Chard and I have often muttered that those at the top in those days really appeared to hate their railway. I can't find any other logical explanation for so much of what was carried out in that period. As a rather stark example of this I would offer the BRB 'Victory Parade' of January 8, 1969 at Riddings Junction where a symbolic lifting of track panels was carried out on the Waverley Route. This act, forever enshrined in Waverlite folklore as 'The Final Insult' was carried out before TV cameras in what can only be described in retrospect as a vulgar display of (probably ministerial) power.

I wonder how much of the proceeds from the stripped asset went into officials' pockets...

 

Dave.

[The Stationmaster]

Aye, 'Chard and I have often muttered that those at the top in those days really appeared to hate their railway. I can't find any other logical explanation for so much of what was carried out in that period. As a rather stark example of this I would offer the BRB 'Victory Parade' of January 8, 1969 at Riddings Junction where a symbolic lifting of track panels was carried out on the Waverley Route. This act, forever enshrined in Waverlite folklore as 'The Final Insult' was carried out before TV cameras in what can only be described in retrospect as a vulgar display of (probably ministerial) power.

I wonder how much of the proceeds from the stripped asset went into officials' pockets...

Dave.

It always appalled me how much the politicos said they weren't interfering with the running of the railway when (albeit at a later date than this) you knew more than enough 'inside the fence' to know that was exactly what was going on.

 

On one occasion I was involved in something which it was thought might lead to a strike - and I knew full well when I suspended someone for refusing to do part of his job that the fact that I would be likely to do so had been approved at junior ministerial level (not that any Govt Minister of any colour would ever admit it, especially one of the colour in Govt at that time). Plenty of dirty political linen in the cupboards regarding rail closures and cut0backs but I doubt any of them will ever admit it - except for Michael Portillo saying that he saved the Settle & Carlisley (if politicos had the power to safe lines that also meant they had the power to close them).

['CHARD]

Aye, 'Chard and I have often muttered that those at the top in those days really appeared to hate their railway. I can't find any other logical explanation for so much of what was carried out in that period. As a rather stark example of this I would offer the BRB 'Victory Parade' of January 8, 1969 at Riddings Junction where a symbolic lifting of track panels was carried out on the Waverley Route. This act, forever enshrined in Waverlite folklore as 'The Final Insult' was carried out before TV cameras in what can only be described in retrospect as a vulgar display of (probably ministerial) power.

I wonder how much of the proceeds from the stripped asset went into officials' pockets...

 

Dave.

 

Hated their railway (as something imposed on their watch), and despised the people who supported, nay depended on it. I'd add to the Final Insult, (from my second team) the junketing of ScR top brass around the lines of Kinross during 1969 in the obbo saloon, in the certain knowledge that they'd already condemned the Perth Direct to the tender merices of the Motorway Builders.

 

I think that my abject hatred of the closerati is one of the driving forces that makes me want to research, recreate and celebrate the last defiant stand of those last lines to close (the Peak, Strathmore and Ilfracombe/ Minehead fit in this category too).

[coachmann]

Mine and the previous generation were tuned into watching out for propeganda, and believe me it is all around us today. I was watching a DVD the other day that was produced very much along the lines of today television programs and the underlying message in the preamble to a film about Newton Heath MPD in the late 1950s ran like this :- 1950s - bad, dirt - bad, hard work - bad.

 

The film about Newton Heath shed was a silent film with dubbed-on sound and voices of actors who thought they could do a northern England accent. No doubt many on here will have seen and enjoyed the film thinking it was a snapshot of real life. Sorry but It wasnt made for railway enthusiasts, it was made for screening in cinemas and the spoken words were bullsh*t propeganda for the coming diesel era. In one sequence someone is heard saying "If I know enginemen, and I do know enginemen, they'll do their best for't public". Rollocks! The rejoiner at 26A would have been "Nob'dy will appreciate it and you'll not get paid more...!"

 

The choice of Newton Heath was unfortunate seeing as it had a modern coaling plant and ash wagons on rails in the disposal pits. The sub-shed at Lees was more typical with hand-coaling and ash that had to be raked into a pit then shovelled out of 'pit onto 'gound, then shovelled off 'ground into a 16T mineral wagon. A good arm-building job for rooky footplatemen.

 

Sure it was heavy dirty work but if homes had bathrooms and hot water on tap, which they hadn't and no one mentions this you'll notice, then life on the railway would have been much pleasanter. As it was, the men got on with the job. And why wouldnt they after training and passing exams for 30-odd years. They knew engines inside out by that stage and the news that their skills would soon be redundant wasn't as welcome as some folk would have people believe. You've only got to see the reaction of folk on here when Andy changes the colours on RMweb...!

[Michael Delamar]

1967 - Grime Amongst the Blue.. by rgadsdon, on Flickr

[Guest Max Stafford]

That, Mike, is a b****y hum-dinger of a shot!

 

Dave.

[37255]

I'm getting more tempted by the day! Maybe this will climb to the top of my 'to do' list? I sincerely hope not, having already detailed, painted and weathered sufficient stock for my 'top of the 'to do' list' 80s pres layout, and not far off the same for my 'top of the 'to do' list' NCB layout!

[Michael Delamar]

45134 Carnforth Stn.11.7.68 by George of Dufton, on Flickr

 

70049 Barrow Stn. 2.8.67 by George of Dufton, on Flickr

['CHARD]

Loving that Mike! The Sleeper (setting aside all the elements that make that photo obvious uber-filth for us devotees of the era) also shows the uncomfortable early lettering of the Blue & Grey livery. That would be a challenge to deliver convincingly in model form. Such a signature nuance, it's probably "eB&G" in my livery notations!

[Michael Delamar]

45268 Farrington 29.4.68 by George of Dufton, on Flickr

 

45268 Farrington 29.4.68 by George of Dufton, on Flickr

[Poggy1165]

Interesting, an LNWR signal in the top photo, and the blue and grey already looks like it's fading. Also note how neat and tidy the track and surrounding are compared to 2012. Would be quite something to model this convincingly.

['CHARD]

Interesting, an LNWR signal in the top photo, and the blue and grey already looks like it's fading.

 

I'm sure I read somewhere in our wealth of transition tales that early blue was not especially colourfast and this, coupled with various and sundry practices of the era, did nothing to help preserve the finish for any length of time.

[Michael Delamar]

45268 Morcambe Stn. 11.7.68 by George of Dufton, on Flickr

[Barry O]

45134 Carnforth Stn.11.7.68 by George of Dufton, on Flickr

 

70049 Barrow Stn. 2.8.67 by George of Dufton, on Flickr

It doesn't look like that anymore - but that may be a station which needs to be modelled

[Pennine MC]

I'm sure I read somewhere in our wealth of transition tales that early blue was not especially colourfast and this, coupled with various and sundry practices of the era, did nothing to help preserve the finish for any length of time.

 

I think it's further back in this thread that the 'whiteness' was probably cleaning fluid deposits.

 

Nice wrapround FYE on the 110 in the Morecambe shot

[Pugsley]

I think it's further back in this thread that the 'whiteness' was probably cleaning fluid deposits.

That'll be Exmover, a rather potent cleaning solution containing Oxalic Acid, which will cause the white streaking if it isn't rinsed off properly, not to mention destroy the paint finish eventually. It was this stuff that contributed significantly to the awful condition of the paintwork on the Westerns in their later days.

[Invicta]

45268 Morcambe Stn. 11.7.68 by George of Dufton, on Flickr

 

Something else interesting in that photo- note the yellow end on the DMU, wrapping round onto the cab doors. Isn't that the livery variation that was much-discussed on RMWeb and elsewhere when Hornby offered it on the ex-Lima bubble car a few years back?

(Edit to say- just noticed that Pennine had already mentioned it!) How widespread was this, as I think I've only ever seen a handful of photos of it?

Edited April 13, 2012 by Invicta

[Pennine MC]

Something else interesting in that photo- note the yellow end on the DMU, wrapping round onto the cab doors. Isn't that the livery variation that was much-discussed on RMWeb and elsewhere when Hornby offered it on the ex-Lima bubble car a few years back?

(Edit to say- just noticed that Pennine had already mentioned it!) How widespread was this, as I think I've only ever seen a handful of photos of it?

 

It wasnt common, but it wasnt mega-rare either - most DMU classes and some EMUs seemed to have one or more examples. There might be something in Chard's Transition Liveries area.

[Bob Reid]

Interestingly enough when the Scottish Region issued the BRB's General Instruction for the new Rolling Stock liveries the 'Default' stance for the non blue & grey Multiple Units was for the wrapround yellow front - at what point it was rescinded, I've yet to find out however it's clear that several classes received it on next being shopped.

 

As previously discussed the cause of the chalk white staining - particularly noticeable on the blue panels was down to the Exmover - not really the Exmovers fault, just a combination of poor washplant strengths, a lack of time in the neutralising (Bicarb section) and drivers in a hurry to book off. All of the regions got a grip on the problems eventually however some of the Western Region washplants were particularly poor.

[Pennine MC]

Interestingly enough when the Scottish Region issued the BRB's General Instruction for the new Rolling Stock liveries the 'Default' stance for the non blue & grey Multiple Units was for the wrapround yellow front - at what point it was rescinded, I've yet to find out however it's clear that several classes received it on next being shopped.

 

That's interesting Bob, particularly the bit about 'non-blue/grey'. At least one Pennine (124) car got the wraprounds, and I think we've come across a GRCW 119 before as well.

 

From a 'gut guess' at the quantity of cars done, based on the percentage of photos I've seen, I'd reckon the instruction only lasted a matter of a year or so.