Bob Reid Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I'll dig out the letter/s this weekend Ian and detail it verbatim - I may not be a 100% correct about the blue & grey (mainly because it was an ScR internal letter and may have been referring to their own stock if I know the way they worked)..... (I should add the General Instruction I think for the ScR dates from October 66' (t.b.c.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Hi All While I think of the 80's as the forgotten era of railway modelling its not half as bad as this http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream Steam. blue and grey coaches (b4 bogies too) colour lights, FB rail and yet hardly ever (if ever) modelled. Cheers Jim Just had a first look at this topic but not read all through yet. Has anone else noticed that the B4 bogie in the initial picture is 'as built' without any dampng for the helical springs. I vividly remember being in the cess at the side of the GW main line one day when a Warship went past with some of the B4 bogies in the train pitching like crazy, that being at the time when the pins supposed to be securing the brake blocks were becoming displaced by the pitching and the brake blocks were being thrown about, some going through carriage windows. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 14, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 14, 2012 As previously discussed the cause of the chalk white staining - particularly noticeable on the blue panels was down to the Exmover - not really the Exmovers fault, just a combination of poor washplant strengths, a lack of time in the neutralising (Bicarb section) and drivers in a hurry to book off. All of the regions got a grip on the problems eventually however some of the Western Region washplants were particularly poor. Just to add to Bob's explanation - Exmover was supplied as a powder and was mixed locally to the required strength and some folk got the idea that 'making the solution a bit stronger' would work better, it doesn't! Experienced Carriage Cleaners who mixed it for hand vehicle washing knew that the correct mix worked perfectly well if properly applied, allowed time to work and then rinsed - the real trick of using it is to 'lay it on' thoroughly, give it time to work, and then make sure it is completely rinsed before it starts to dry (and leave white stains). On the Western some of the CWMs (Carriage Washing Machines) were tried with pre-mixed cleaning solution or different chemicals but Exmover was usually found to be best at shifting brake block dust and supplied in pre-mixed quantities it worked well. The trick with CWMs is not so much putting Exmover on as getting it off at the right time - thus the need to carefully control speed and hence the consequences of Drivers rushing for a finish or the rinsing section not working properly (as was a common failing at Kensal Green CWM). Provide stained vehicles and locos were hand cleaned to deal with the problem or keep it under control things could be kept in check but handwashing was very expensive (c.1 man hour for a Mk1 coach) and it needs experienced staff. It is very difficult to get rid of dried Exmover - the only thing which will shift it is Exmover but that only works on recent deposits and to then get a really good finish we found that a further wash with GIC (BR's General Interior Cleaner, smashing stiff for cleaning) got rid of any liquid residue and added a bit of shine. Loco depots usually lacked both the staff and the skill for hand-washing locos so deposits, and their effect on the paintwork, simply got worse and worse. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Just had a first look at this topic but not read all through yet. Has anone else noticed that the B4 bogie in the initial picture is 'as built' without any dampng for the helical springs. I vividly remember being in the cess at the side of the GW main line one day when a Warship went past with some of the B4 bogies in the train pitching like crazy, that being at the time when the pins supposed to be securing the brake blocks were becoming displaced by the pitching and the brake blocks were being thrown about, some going through carriage windows. Well PoB they did have primary suspension dampers - just not very good ones as it turned out! - Inside the helical springs there is a huge hydraulic damper - one half of the cylinder being fixed to the bogie frame, and the other to the axlebox casting. Filled with oil and with a bleed port between the halfs, it turned out to be rather less than efficient! (If I'm minding correctly it suffered from aeriation (sp)? "air in the oil" when in use causing the oil to foam up. It wasn't really up to the job on it's own hence the replacement later with rubber friction dampers and on some with external hydraulic dampers of the more conventional kind! Great design without a doubt over what had been before but like all these things, took a bit of experimentation and service use to get there! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 so weve got evidence that even after a couple of years coaches would have white streaks, has anyone weathered any like that? a bit of a white wash, although not as bad as the western and warships.. Hydraulics at Teignmouth. by curly42, on Flickr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Well PoB they did have primary suspension dampers - just not very good ones as it turned out! - Inside the helical springs there is a huge hydraulic damper - one half of the cylinder being fixed to the bogie frame, and the other to the axlebox casting. Filled with oil and with a bleed port between the halfs, it turned out to be rather less than efficient! (If I'm minding correctly it suffered from aeriation (sp)? "air in the oil" when in use causing the oil to foam up. It wasn't really up to the job on it's own hence the replacement later with rubber friction dampers and on some with external hydraulic dampers of the more conventional kind! Great design without a doubt over what had been before but like all these things, took a bit of experimentation and service use to get there! Thanks Bob, I never knew that until now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) The problem with weathering them with the white streaks is that it was the exception rather than the rule and it wasn't on the whole permanent - it often came off the next heavy wash. A good "cameo" coach would be fine but a whole rake would look somewhat unprototypical. The most noticeable difference was in vehicles near to the next repaint was that the blue had faded overall when compared to the ex-shops vehicles - that is something you don't see modelled too often. I'm not sure what happened to cause it to to the Westerns and Warships in the later years but there can have been few other loco's in regular passenger service that were allowed to deteriorate that much. The paint coating always seemed thin to me no doubt as Stationmaster says made worse by the poor use of Exmover. Edited April 15, 2012 by Bob-65b Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 It wasnt common, but it wasnt mega-rare either - most DMU classes and some EMUs seemed to have one or more examples. There might be something in Chard's Transition Liveries area. There is, Pennine - one of the respected Natalies of this parish entered a slew of data on the subject some time ago. Of course the Waverley is known for photographic record of GRCW 100s and Met-Cam 101s sporting the feature, the two staple MU denizens of the Northern section. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Wigan Springs Branch by Kerry Parker (KP), on Flickr 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 nice shot at Clapham jnc in 1966 http://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/6436085171/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 8F 48393 and a Swindon Class 124 Trans-Pennine DMU near Mirfield, 29-9-67 http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/6286616597/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 I'm not sure what happened to cause it to to the Westerns and Warships in the later years but there can have been few other loco's in regular passenger service that were allowed to deteriorate that much. The paint coating always seemed thin to me no doubt as Stationmaster says made worse by the poor use of Exmover. Hi bob I was told by an ex-Swindon man that thier stocks of rail blue were routinely thinned (quite heavily) to stretch the supply out. Cheers Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 another coach looking a bit faded/whitewashed.. Aintree by Kerry Parker (KP), on Flickr 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 and one gleaming R1030 - Bolton Trinity Street by BarkingBill, on Flickr 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 8F 48393 and a Swindon Class 124 Trans-Pennine DMU near Mirfield, 29-9-67 http://www.flickr.co...cwp/6286616597/ Oh, that's nice That's one with the wrapround yellow - 45125 and myself were discussing this yesterday (whilst getting sodden waiting for Oliver Cromwell ) and we said it had to be an official spec, because the 'Driver' wording on the door was usually done in black 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) Hi bob I was told by an ex-Swindon man that thier stocks of rail blue were routinely thinned (quite heavily) to stretch the supply out. Cheers Jim Thanks Jim - funny though that the loco side should be the worst at it. The paint was supplied (seperately) for either brushing or for spray application (pre-thinned clearly) though it wasn't unknown for the painters to thin the final coats to give a better finish - which was the opposite of the effect of what was being looked for (it was found that high gloss coats were not as resistant to traffic wear and weathered quicker than the semi-gloss that was intended... Why they would run out if paint is beyond me there were regular trades between regions and workshops of materials and three? suppliers but BRE/BREL could be a law unto itself at times. (trust me I worked for them for a while) Edited April 15, 2012 by Bob-65b Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 another coach looking a bit faded/whitewashed.. Aintree by Kerry Parker (KP), on Flickr Ever get a feeling the yard shunters were bored the day that set in the background was made up? (Maroon / Blue&Grey / Maroon / Blue&Grey / Maroon / Blue&Grey / Maroon / Blue&Grey / Maroon)......... Model that and you'll feel the wrath of the armchair modeller 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 there is another shot of that train.. Aintree by Kerry Parker (KP), on Flickr 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 These are great finds Michael. It looks for all the world that the yard supervisors split up a rake of ex-works (judging by the roof condition) blue & grey vehicles and dropped them into one of the regular excursion / spare sets - split & reform by the bucketload. Happy days. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Waterloo by Kerry Parker (KP), on Flickr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 These are great finds Michael. It looks for all the world that the yard supervisors split up a rake of ex-works (judging by the roof condition) blue & grey vehicles and dropped them into one of the regular excursion / spare sets - split & reform by the bucketload. Happy days. blue and grey was more established the following year in 1968. see the last 4 shots here.. http://classictractionimages.weebly.com/liverpool.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 15, 2012 Interesting, an LNWR signal in the top photo, LNWR signals survived for a good 10 years after that photo, although their number rapidly diminished with the commissioning of the WCML power boxes in the early 1970s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 My layout in late 1960s mode a while back: 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I was spraying a real horsebox in a unit beside Abergele station on 16th July 1966 when I heard a commotion outside. Brits were rare by this time down here and 'Apollo' from Stockport, leaking steam from every orifice, attracted a small gathering while it waited to pull away again. I admit it made my heart race a bit but I cannot think why I had my old Brownie 127 by me. 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) I dont think ive ever seen these together on a layout... http://www.flickr.com/photos/tcs-pics/5513944529/ Edited April 23, 2012 by michael delamar 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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