Trevor H Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 This is something I have already posted a while back in the 'Sad Eyes' thread http://www.rmweb.co....ivery-resource/ Sorry if it's going over the same ground, but If by chance it's own thread could help with this old saga, then I thought it worth trying and see if anything could be unveiled too it's mystery. This is a copy of my original posting: One of the oddities over the years has been the Barry scrapyard D6122 and for me this goes back to my only visit there back in1972 and seeing D6122 one end and D6121 the other Now their have been many stories over the years, such as, the #1 was fudged on, had the loco been fitted with a replacement cab earlier in its life, or was it really D6121. Whatever the reasoning the records show that it was D6122 and that it would go on to outlive the refurbished class 29 D6121, albeit by sitting in the graveyard. So I go back to the question did D6121 end up at Barry and did D6122 become a class 29 in the guise of D6121, or were the records correct. Whatever the answer I shall go through my reasons, on why I feel these two locos may have switched their identity's at some time, pre 1965. Also please understand this could be total speculation on my part, so I don't want to read my reasons as been gospel in the future railway press Anyhow here are some of the facts/reasons I have uncovered: A) The loco arrived at Barry in 1968, clearly showing it as D6122 on all four corners. The only photo I have of it at Hither Green before then, is not clear enough to distinguish the number and I have no reason to believe it been in any different state, as the change must of happened pre 1965. Most of us know or have seen the evidence at an early stage, clearly showing the B end, with its worn paintwork and visibly showing the numbers D6121 on both the drivers and secondmans cab sides. Now we come to the more difficult A end. C) On the drivers side the #2 doesn't seem to match the other #2 in size (this may well be just down to the image been distorted in some way, I don't know). Also you can visibly see where behind the numbers, their is a rectangular patch which has faded differently to the rest of the cabside. This may be down to using some kind of lacquer before applying numbers when built, or where the old number may of been scrubbed out, or patch painted over the old number, again I don't know the answer to this. D) On the secondmans side we seem to have the same thing with the patched area under the numbers. Now we go away from the Barry findings for a while. E) Much like the D6300's, the D6100's had the ventilators (eyebrows) above the front cab windows. D6100-20 had the eyebrows and D6123-57 didn't, which leaves D6121 & D6122. F) Now the part I can't 100% clarify, I have a slide of D6121 when built and although the slide is marked as D6121, it is impossible to read the number, (if anybody does have a photo of this loco when built or sometime pre 1965, it could be the answer). Anyhow what the slide does show you, is that the loco has the eyebrows, problem is D6121 never had eyebrows post 1965! G) Then we move on to D6122, in all the images I have of this loco, from 1965 onwards and obviously any Barry shots, it clearly has the eyebrows. Now I have two images of this loco in 1960 & 61, clearly showing its number and guess what, definitely no eyebrows! H) When I realized a couple of years ago that class 29 D6121 was missing its eyebrows, it got me thinking. Why wouldn't it? and yet D6122 has, was it just a case of been built out of sink, (cl22 D6333 is the same), but earlier evidence shows D6122 didn't start life with them and D6121 possibly did. So finally we return to D6122 at Barry, with its new eyebrows. I) A few more photos of the A end and the secondmans side, this is the cab end which clearly states the loco to be D6122 and the patches under the numbers. But what is that under the #2, surely it couldn't be a #1, it is! Which shows that three out of the four cabside numbers as been D6121. So their you have it, some of my reasons for believing D6122 was actually D6121 and the refurbished/re-engined class 29 D6121 was possibly really D6122. If i am correct how or why did it happen, why was it never noticed by BR, or was it and if it did happen, somebody out their must know. As I say, I could be barking totally up the wrong tree with my speculations, but perhaps my findings have shown their is evidence to my story. If anyone could add to my reasoning one way or the other i would be interested to hear and if anyone has a clear shot of D6121 when built or the early part of its life, that would clear up another part of the mystery. Trevor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor H Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 If anyone has anything to add, it'll be more than welcome. Meanwhile this link shows a young D6122 before it aged and grew eyebrows http://www.flickr.co...cwp/2832273661/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Here's an interesting new photo of the beast, well - new to me at any rate: http://www.flickr.com/groups/60sdiesels/pool/with/213142948/lightbox/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sulzer27jd Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 D6122 was used as the comparison with the re-engined locomotive D6123. In order to make the comparison fair it was given a total overhaul. This might be as simple as having overhauled the wrong loco, it was easier for the workshops to switch identities than own up to their error. J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted October 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2012 My understanding from being about in the day, was, that like the Sulzer 2's, the NBL's had injudicious cab swaps, other NBL's in Scotland had other numbers showing underneath the existing ones if you looked closely just like the Sulzer 2's in England. Your theory is quite an attractive one though Trevor, and no less plausible. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Might be a stupid question, but is the cabside number the only identifying mark on loco's? After all, cars have VIN/Chassis numbers? I know they're not going to be viewable now, but perhaps log books or works records might show. Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hi Sean They do, their works number, you know the one on the plate the enthusiast removed on a shed visit. Most of the major bits and bobs have their own serial number, like the engine, main generator etc. these are all recorded on the locos record card when they are swapped. Trouble is none of these remain so we cannot be of help to Trevor. D6121 and D6122 are not the only possible body swaps. D5018 and D5025 are also candidates. D5018 was one of the pilot Type 2s and had the extra grille on the side of the body. D5025 was a production loco and did not have this grille. All is fine according to photos of both locos in green but when in blue D5025 becomes the only production series loco with this extra grille, and without Paul Daniels help D5018 magically loses its extra grille. This must have caused confusion for the electrical fitters, the pilot type 2s had a different arrangement of exciter for the generator than the production locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacque Jacque Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Even assuming important bits like works plates aren't removed, that must mean a major headache keeping all the paperwork in order ? Never mind if the bits swapped around aren't the same spec ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2012 In 'Modern Locos Illustrated' (the only one I have ever bought!!) Colin Marsden postulates that the cabs were swapped during a works visit. However what is even more interesting are some pics of the loco in that publication as on one of them it has the ventilation grills (as in the pic linked by 'Chard) at the B end but in another - taken in 1960 - it does not appear to have them at the A end (could be due to shadow??) but in a Barry picture it definitely has them at the A end. Alas - unless someone has some very clear detailed pics - there is no way to check if cabs were swapped unless the works plates are visible as I would think it unlikely that they would be changed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave47549 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 D5018 and D5025 are also candidates. D5018 was one of the pilot Type 2s and had the extra grille on the side of the body. D5025 was a production loco and did not have this grille. All is fine according to photos of both locos in green but when in blue D5025 becomes the only production series loco with this extra grille, and without Paul Daniels help D5018 magically loses its extra grille. This must have caused confusion for the electrical fitters, the pilot type 2s had a different arrangement of exciter for the generator than the production locos. I think you mean D5005 and D5025, there is quite an interesting read on the Derby Sulzers website which might give the answer to this one- http://www.derbysulzers.com/24025.html Locos did change cabs quite often so the D6121/2 might just be a case that D6121 had a cab replaced and then that cab was repaired before being fitted to D6122. I have a picture of the cab from 03066 in use at Doncaster works as a bothy but the actual loco was still in service (and is now preserved). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the penguin of doom Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hi Sean They do, their works number, you know the one on the plate the enthusiast removed on a shed visit. Most of the major bits and bobs have their own serial number, like the engine, main generator etc. these are all recorded on the locos record card when they are swapped. Trouble is none of these remain so we cannot be of help to Trevor. D6121 and D6122 are not the only possible body swaps. D5018 and D5025 are also candidates. D5018 was one of the pilot Type 2s and had the extra grille on the side of the body. D5025 was a production loco and did not have this grille. All is fine according to photos of both locos in green but when in blue D5025 becomes the only production series loco with this extra grille, and without Paul Daniels help D5018 magically loses its extra grille. This must have caused confusion for the electrical fitters, the pilot type 2s had a different arrangement of exciter for the generator than the production locos. Ah, of course. Thanks for that Clive. I have just gone DCC and use the loco number as the i.d. This worked well until I came to DP2 which is programmed as 3205 - it's works number. I should have known really..... So, if the cabs were changed, did the "changer" have the tenacity to change the works plates? As you say, due to circumstance, we'll probably never know..... unless someone comes up with one if those cab profile shots...... Cheers. Sean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 22, 2012 I think you mean D5005 and D5025, there is quite an interesting read on the Derby Sulzers website which might give the answer to this one- http://www.derbysulzers.com/24025.html Locos did change cabs quite often so the D6121/2 might just be a case that D6121 had a cab replaced and then that cab was repaired before being fitted to D6122. I have a picture of the cab from 03066 in use at Doncaster works as a bothy but the actual loco was still in service (and is now preserved). Hi royaloak I do mean D5018. The discussion you pointed to relates mainly to the radiator grille, this was removable and the ones with bars as fitted to D5000 to D5006 were seen on may locos. The photo they show of a green D5025 could not been D5005 renumbered, D5005 was the only two tone green pilot loco and an early withdrawal, I believe in this livery. http://www.derbysulzers.com/5005dw.jpg Clive I would like to post the photos but as do not have the copyright to them I cannot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 D5025 was never painted in 2 tone green but the photos on DS show a loco (roughly) numbered D5025 in 2 tone green, D5005 was at Derby for scrapping the same time as D5025 came in for overhaul. The many differences between D5005 and D5025 were- the extra top side grille on each side as fitted to the early 24s which suddenly appeared on D5025, as you say the bar on the radiator grille is no big deal, the southern style lamp brackets on D5005 and the (new) D5025 but not the original D5025 ((D5025 not sent to Southern region), D5005 was one of the few in 2 tone green and D5025 was not; but the loco being overhauled is in grubby 2 tone green. There are more but I think thats enough, what do you mean about D5018 and D5025 not heard that one before? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2012 I won't say hello as you don't seemed to be able to address me. 24018 does not have the additional grille. D5018 does. 24025 has the addtional grille. D5025 does not. Look in a few books, like I did. Yours CLIVE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hello Clive, Excuse my lack of manners! 24025 has the additional grille (and "southern" style additional lamp brackets plus other bits) because it is probable that the bodyshell from D5005 was used at the Derby overhaul. I will look at some books for D5018/ 24018 details. TTFN Royal Oak. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hi Royal Oak I have just had a butchers at the class 24 orientated books in my collection, just the 200 odd assorted albums and diesels on the LMR to go through. Many years ago I noted all the variations I could find on diesels pre TOPS, the class 24 and 25s have the most types of small yellow panel of all classes. It was while I was doing this listing that I recorded that 5018 had lost its addtional grille and 5025 had gained one. I had not noticed that 5025 had the SR lamp irons. So this is now a spanner in the works moment. Could the following happened. D5005's body became D5025 D5025's body became D5018 D5018's body became a Vauxhall Viva The problem is that I was working on floppy disc and saved them orginally in Excel, then got a new computer that had MS Works on it and converted the files to wdl. That was Ok until the next computer that did not have MS Works. I was not able to convert them back to excel at the time. Then several computers later SWMBO said do we need these floppy discs anymore as she put them in the bin and me thinking "I cannot access the info" said NO. Whoops I had gone through about 300 to 400 books, and god knows how many magazines so my references have all been consigned to history. Being one of those people who remember rubbish like Coranation Street started in 1960, the potential body swap of '18 and '25 has stuck in my head. I have found this from a file I wrote dating back to 2002 D5000 to D5113 had front gangway and disc headcodes (TYPE 1). D5000 to D5008, D5013 to D5019 had an extra upper body side grille near the radiator (TYPE 1A). By the time D5025 was in blue livery it had an extra upper body side grille near the radiator and 5018 by 1969 did not, did these two locos swap bodies or identities at some point? Now to try and locate a photo of 5018/24 018. Clive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 evening Clive, D5018/ 24018 seems to have been a bit camera shy, its all rather frustrating! Your hypothesis is eminently possible, I used to own vauxhall viva built in 1975, I wonder? edit, have a check of the lamp brackets, bogie steps. They can identify certain locos, and yes I do appreciate that you have probably checked all the small details but hey you never know! All the best royaloak. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted October 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hi Royal Oak I am now confused, this is 5019, it should have the addtional grille. It is not there. http://www.flickr.com/photos/killie65/2674495223/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter A Hall Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Sounds like another candidate for the RCTS Diesel dilemmas page: http://www.rcts.org....atures/diesels/ It is indeed a candidate for the RCTS Diesel Dilemmas page and has now been added http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/diesels/loco.htm?id=diesels/D6121 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter A Hall Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 D6122 was used as the comparison with the re-engined locomotive D6123. In order to make the comparison fair it was given a total overhaul. This might be as simple as having overhauled the wrong loco, it was easier for the workshops to switch identities than own up to their error. J Very intersting comment. Any more details of the overhaul, such as when and where? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 This is something I have already posted a while back in the 'Sad Eyes' thread http://www.rmweb.co....ivery-resource/ Sorry if it's going over the same ground, but If by chance it's own thread could help with this old saga, then I thought it worth trying and see if anything could be unveiled too it's mystery. This is a copy of my original posting: One of the oddities over the years has been the Barry scrapyard D6122 and for me this goes back to my only visit there back in1972 and seeing D6122 one end and D6121 the other Now their have been many stories over the years, such as, the #1 was fudged on, had the loco been fitted with a replacement cab earlier in its life, or was it really D6121. Whatever the reasoning the records show that it was D6122 and that it would go on to outlive the refurbished class 29 D6121, albeit by sitting in the graveyard. So I go back to the question did D6121 end up at Barry and did D6122 become a class 29 in the guise of D6121, or were the records correct. Whatever the answer I shall go through my reasons, on why I feel these two locos may have switched their identity's at some time, pre 1965. Also please understand this could be total speculation on my part, so I don't want to read my reasons as been gospel in the future railway press Anyhow here are some of the facts/reasons I have uncovered: A) The loco arrived at Barry in 1968, clearly showing it as D6122 on all four corners. The only photo I have of it at Hither Green before then, is not clear enough to distinguish the number and I have no reason to believe it been in any different state, as the change must of happened pre 1965. Most of us know or have seen the evidence at an early stage, clearly showing the B end, with its worn paintwork and visibly showing the numbers D6121 on both the drivers and secondmans cab sides. 6122(B_end)-Drivers-a.jpg 6122(B_end)-Secondmans-a.jpg 6122(B_end)-Secondmans-b.jpg Now we come to the more difficult A end. C) On the drivers side the #2 doesn't seem to match the other #2 in size (this may well be just down to the image been distorted in some way, I don't know). Also you can visibly see where behind the numbers, their is a rectangular patch which has faded differently to the rest of the cabside. This may be down to using some kind of lacquer before applying numbers when built, or where the old number may of been scrubbed out, or patch painted over the old number, again I don't know the answer to this. 6122(A_end)-Drivers-a.jpg 6122(A_end)-Drivers-b.jpg D) On the secondmans side we seem to have the same thing with the patched area under the numbers. 6122(A_end)-Secondmans-a.jpg Now we go away from the Barry findings for a while. E) Much like the D6300's, the D6100's had the ventilators (eyebrows) above the front cab windows. D6100-20 had the eyebrows and D6123-57 didn't, which leaves D6121 & D6122. F) Now the part I can't 100% clarify, I have a slide of D6121 when built and although the slide is marked as D6121, it is impossible to read the number, (if anybody does have a photo of this loco when built or sometime pre 1965, it could be the answer). Anyhow what the slide does show you, is that the loco has the eyebrows, problem is D6121 never had eyebrows post 1965! G) Then we move on to D6122, in all the images I have of this loco, from 1965 onwards and obviously any Barry shots, it clearly has the eyebrows. Now I have two images of this loco in 1960 & 61, clearly showing its number and guess what, definitely no eyebrows! H) When I realized a couple of years ago that class 29 D6121 was missing its eyebrows, it got me thinking. Why wouldn't it? and yet D6122 has, was it just a case of been built out of sink, (cl22 D6333 is the same), but earlier evidence shows D6122 didn't start life with them and D6121 possibly did. So finally we return to D6122 at Barry, with its new eyebrows. I) A few more photos of the A end and the secondmans side, this is the cab end which clearly states the loco to be D6122 and the patches under the numbers. But what is that under the #2, surely it couldn't be a #1, it is! Which shows that three out of the four cabside numbers as been D6121. 6122(A_end)-Secondmans-b.jpg 6122(A_end)-Secondmans-c.jpg 6122(A_end)-Secondmans-d.jpg 6122(A_end)-Secondmans-e.jpg So their you have it, some of my reasons for believing D6122 was actually D6121 and the refurbished/re-engined class 29 D6121 was possibly really D6122. If i am correct how or why did it happen, why was it never noticed by BR, or was it and if it did happen, somebody out their must know. As I say, I could be barking totally up the wrong tree with my speculations, but perhaps my findings have shown their is evidence to my story. If anyone could add to my reasoning one way or the other i would be interested to hear and if anyone has a clear shot of D6121 when built or the early part of its life, that would clear up another part of the mystery. Trevor. Trevor . I believe I can put your mind at rest. . Many years ago, not long after D6122 arrived at Barry from Hither Green I was wandering around Woodhams yard and kicked over a piece of metal (alloy) which turned out to be a diamond shaped NBL builders plate (NBL 27851/59). . The plate was damaged - in two pieces, with the break across where one of the fixing bolts would be. . I had found the larger section of the plate. . Young I may have been, but I knew at that time Woodham Bros had only ever bought 4 NBL locos; 2x Warships, 1x D84XX and D6122. . As three of these remained nearby I examined them and recovered the smaller, missing piece, of the NBL plate from the cabside of D6122. . At this time the loco was relatively new to the yard, and the former number D6121 was not showing through the paintwork. . I have kept the plate ever since; and a photo is attached below. . I have been told that the works number relates to D6121, even though I recovered (part of the ) plate from D6122. . If this is the case (that the works number relates to D6121) - and incase anyone questions the provenance of the plate - the loco at Barry is the only Cl.21/29 I ever saw. . I hope this helps. . Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter A Hall Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Brian R has also very kindly allowed the picture of the builders plate he found at Barry on the RCTS website at http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/diesels/loco.htm?id=diesels/D6121 Although the mystery is far from solved evidence supporting an identity swap between D6121 and D6122 continues to build up with the Spring of 1964 now appearing to be the most likely time for this to have happened. The RCTS website continues to be updated as fresh information is provided. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted November 10, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 10, 2013 Hello Clive, Excuse my lack of manners! 24025 has the additional grille (and "southern" style additional lamp brackets plus other bits) because it is probable that the bodyshell from D5005 was used at the Derby overhaul. I will look at some books for D5018/ 24018 details. TTFN Royal Oak. Hi Royal Oak I have just found this post http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/6977-sr-allocated-class-24s/?p=62354 Garham (Brush Veteran) states "D5018 was an oddball with a 5/4 A side and 3/4 B side" when talking about the side grilles. So was I looking at one side in a photo and then the other in a later photo thus making me think it had swapped bodies with D5025? I was wrong about its identity swap but half right about the grilles on D5018. Clive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
csiedmo Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Hello, While its great to have the works plate evidence, since the works plates were on the cab ends, surely we expect to find the works plate of D6121 regardless of whether it was just a cab swap or an identity change? All that this tells us is that whoever swapped either the identities or the cabs didn't go to the trouble of additionally swapping the works plates. Cheers, Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.