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GWR Pagoda platform shelters





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#1 Richard E

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 07:29

I know (I think) that the GWR used the corrugated iron pagoda platform shelter widely but some questions occurred to me, firstly would these be used only on smaller stations or would they appear on larger ones as well. If so could they be used in pairs spaced along the same platform?

Did they end up being used for anything else?

Is the shed a similar 'kit' of parts but with the differences to make it a shed rather than a shelter?



#2 Fat Controller

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 07:57

I've certainly seen them used as storage of some sort on platforms- the opening normally used by passengers being replaced by a door/doors (off-hand, I can't remember if it was one door with vertical boarding either side, or twin doors). The example I remember was at Ferryside, in Carmarthenshire.
Looking through one of the GWR station books, I've found an example at Buckfastleigh, which seems to have three doors, with corrugated sheet between them...
Maes-y-Cregiau had one with twin doors, but with the windows in the ends, and notice boards either side of the doors.
Rather more common were corrugated sheds with a curved roof, which appear both on platforms and in yards. They look as though they might be delivered ready-assembled to site, rather like the SR concrete ones.
I have an inkling that a firm called 'Ash' (possibly 'Ash and Lacey'?) in the Black Country produced the pagodas for the GWR
'Joseph Ash' are still about, galvanising things- I saw one of their lorries at Stowting Common this morning.

Edited by Fat Controller, 07 July 2012 - 18:52 .


#3 buffalo

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:48

The pagoda shelters were mostly associated with the increase in the number of small 'halts' that came with the introduction of railmotor services in the first decade of the 20th century. These halts were mostly of a very simple design with, usually, timber-built platforms. Not all such halts were so equipped, some had no shelter, others had wooden buildings, and some had one of the other corrugated designs adapted as a shelter. In some cases, e.g. Defiance Halt (built by the sailors of HMS Defiance) there were pairs of pagoda shelters. The pagoda sheds were sometimes used on small rural stations as additional shelter or lock-up accommodation, for example at Witney, Fairford, Lechlade or Stratton. These were in addition to small, but conventional, station buildings of stone, brick or timber construction. Where additional lock-ups were needed at existing stations, the standard 14' or 20' by 8' corrugated sheds with curved roof were much more widely used. As Brian mentions, there were some ad hoc variations on the basic pagoda. For example, at Kelmscott and Langford, a waiting room and booking office were constructed using what looks like the parts from two or more pagoda 'kits'.

I won't say that pagodas were never found at larger stations as I'm sure someone will find example. However, I can't think of one and they would not have been common.

Nick

edit: ps. according to the drawing in Vaughan's Pictorial Record of Great Western Architecture, the standard pagoda measured 20' by 8'.

Edited by buffalo, 07 July 2012 - 11:40 .

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#4 big jim

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 10:30

a station bigger than a halt that immediatly springs to my mind that still has pagoda's on both platforms is denham golf club (between gerrards cross and denham), dont know if they are original though?



#5 Fat Controller

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 10:33

a station bigger than a halt that immediatly springs to my mind that still has pagoda's on both platforms is denham golf club (between gerrards cross and denham), dont know if they are original though?

Didn't this station open during the 1920s/30s? If so, then they probably are original.

#6 buffalo

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:06

Re-reading what I wrote above in the light of Jim's comment, it's probably worth saying that a number of stations that were called halts had platforms built for much longer trains than railmotors or autotrains. Defiance was just one of these. According to Wikipedia, Denham Golf Club Platform was built in 1912 and the pagodas were original, though the one housing the ticket office was burned down in 2005 and replaced by a near replica in 2007. The pagodas are apparently listed. It was called a halt later and the name persisted until the mid-sixties when the platforms were lengthened.

Was there ever a formal definition of a halt? I've always assumed that they were usually unstaffed, but whether this was necessary to their naming I don't know. The presence of a booking pagoda at Denham would suggest otherwise.

Nick

#7 buffalo

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 13:53

Whilst looking for something quite different, I spotted another interesting variation on the pagoda theme in Norris et al., Edwardian Enterprise. At Perivale Halt, two pagodas are joined end to end with a further flat roof extension to give the impression of a single building. The proportions of the flat roof section are reminiscent of the toilet blocks on many small GWR station buildings. One pagoda unit has the normal windows either side of a pair of doors, whilst the other has two larger and one very small window with two separate single doors. The pair of pagoda roof sections are surrounded by a low decorative railing that further emphasises the single building appearance. A single pagoda on the other platform also has this decorative railing.

Nick

#8 Rugd1022

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 14:27

Nick, looking through Laurance Walters' book on the London area of the Great Western just now, there's a shot of Perivale's pagodas taken c1912....possibly the same photo in your Edwardian book? The 'double' pagoda on the up platform is very striking. On the opposite page is a rare shot of Old Oak Lane halt with it's pair of standard pagodas, which in comparison look quite plain. With Acton Mainline just a short distance to the west and Paddington a few miles to the east, this is about as urban as you're likely to get with these typically GWR structures.

Struggling to think of any large GW stations with them on now!
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#9 melmerby

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 18:54

Was they were called "halt" because they were no signals controlling the trains at all.

The GWR definition of a halt may not be what we would consider today.
Another odd definition was "platform".
http://www.warwicksh...wr/gwryw530.htm

as you can see Yardley Wood Platform in Birmingham was a proper station!

BTW the "Southern" had a few GWR pagodas.

Keith

Edit: looking at Kevin Robertson's book(s) on GWR halts it appears that they are just the lowest tier of passenger facility.
There are halts on fully signalled double track main lines, at junctions or on little used branches. Some appear to even have staff!

Edited by melmerby, 06 July 2012 - 19:08 .


#10 big jim

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 20:33

There are halts on fully signalled double track main lines, at junctions or on little used branches. Some appear to even have staff!


looking at the still at the start of this video on youtube featuring unused footage from the famous "lets go to birmingham" film they dont get much more sparse than ilmer halt on the gw/gc line between princes risborough and haddenham



and at 7:54 in this video you can see the pagoda's in denham golf club, if you can stop it just right i think you can make out a similarly painted corrugated shed at the bottom of the station ramp



#11 TheSignalEngineer

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 20:59

Was they were called "halt" because they were no signals controlling the trains at all.


I don't know the official reason for different designations on the GWR, but from what I recall a Halt was just a platform with a rudimentary shelter if you were lucky and no other facilities, a Platform was a passenger only facility, usually with a waiting room and sometimes a small ticket office, whilst a Station had full passenger facilities, dealt with parcels and usually one or more goods sidings.
Stationmaster will most likely be able to give the definitive answer but I expect he is currently rowing towards Stafford for Members Day.

#12 melmerby

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 22:51

but from what I recall a Halt was just a platform with a rudimentary shelter if you were lucky and no other facilities,


Nantgarw Halt High Level, like many others, didn't even have platforms, just a "shed" like building on each side of the track.
Only auto-trailers stopped there one assumes!

Some halts had ticket offices and others dealt with things such as newspaper traffic & parcels.
There are even a few with sidings.

Keith

Edit: added parcels

Edited by melmerby, 06 July 2012 - 22:57 .

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#13 Gwiwer

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:08

BTW the "Southern" had a few GWR pagodas.

Indeed they did. Dunmere and Nanstallon were examples. The only furniture on both platforms was an SR name-board, two SR gas lamps and a GWR pagoda shelter! That was installed long before the WR got their hands on those lines as well so is not an artefact of the BR regional wars.

Mac Hawkins (LSWR Lines Then and Now) speculates that they dated from 1888 when the link between GWR and LSWR was made.

#14 buffalo

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 10:10

...and at 7:54 in this video you can see the pagoda's in denham golf club, if you can stop it just right i think you can make out a similarly painted corrugated shed at the bottom of the station ramp...


I believe that is the one that was replaced in 2007. Interestingly, it is not a 'classic' pagoda with the curved roof profile on all four sides, but one with gable ends. These are not common, but there are a few other examples. There's a photo in Clark's An Historical Survey of Selected Great Western Stations, vol 2, of the first Dawlish Warren Halt, built in 1905. This shows what looks like a normal pagoda plus a somewhat larger gable ended version on each platform. Incidentally, Clark says this original station was called "Warren Halt", though the photo clearly shows a board with "Warren Platform".

...Mac Hawkins (LSWR Lines Then and Now) speculates that they dated from 1888 when the link between GWR and LSWR was made.


An interesting idea, but when were pagodas introduced? Whilst I've seen photos showing what look very much like standard corrugated lamp huts as far back as 1890, I don't recall seeing a pagoda earlier than about 1903. This may just be a result of the large number of photos showing the opening of new halts at that time, but if they existed earlier they appear to have been rather camera-shy.

Nick

#15 melmerby

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 10:25

Apart from the standard corrugated iron/curved roof style pagoda, there are straight roofed (not gabled) types, wooden versions and also a few concrete ones!

Again see Kevin Robertson's books.

Plenty of scope for modelling!

Keith

#16 Richard E

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 18:20

Wow guys - thanks very much, such info and so quickly.

#17 The Stationmaster

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 20:13

My post this morning seems to have vanished into teh ether so i will try again tomorrow when I'm back on the home 'puter and might have a reference source.

#18 The Stationmaster

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 16:23

Right trying again now that I'm back on drier land (although Staffordshire was not too bad when we left this morning). It is very useful that Jim mentioned Denham Golf Club because that has, I think, gone through all the permutations - in the 1929 public timetable it was 'Denham Golf Club Platform', and it still had that title in the 1954 public timetable. I then have a gap in my archive information but by 1960 it had become 'Denham Golf Club Halt' in the Sectional Appendix and while in the 1963 public timetable it had become 'Denham Golf Club', it was still 'Denham Golf Club Halt' in the 1969 Sectional Appendix! Now I'm fairly sure there was no change in its facilities between being a 'Platform' and a 'Halt' although I believe that in later years tickets were issued there.

So where do we go for some guidance - well the Rule Book doesn't help because it defines a station as including the term 'halt' - but that is of course for the purpose of the application of Rules & Regulations is not unexpected. The 'Requirements For Passenger Lines ... etc' give little latitude in the 1950 edition for a halt to have any particular relaxation of key features in comparison with a station. And while the 1902 version does not mention the term 'halt' there is an implication of the requirements for station facilities being relaxed in some situations and these would clearly include a halt or 'platform' with greatly reduced levels of facilities such as waiting accommodation or toilets. So a bit of searching reveals no clear indication of any difference in two important areas.

And that leaves the most important one which was clearly applied (and was probably recorded somewhere if only for administrative reasons although it might conceivably have been left to 'decision by an experienced person' etc). There are however is one thing which indicates some sort of distinction, for it is clear from GWR operational safety etc minutes prior to the Great War that a halt was regarded as unstaffed from a train despatch viewpoint and I think it is generally reasonable to regard this as fairly constant right into the late 1960s - hence the operational distinguishing of status as late as 1969 (it disappeared sometime between then and 1973 on the WR, effectively rendered redundant by many more stations becoming unstaffed).

Administratively there was of course considerable difference between a halt and a station with the former not having a resident Stationmaster and its lower status would also be reflected in it having no, or very few, staff while the name would also impact on the grading of some staff if they were based there as well as on those who had any sort of responsibility for such a location. But by the mid 1960s all of that was beginning to change on the WR as more stations lost their staff and the distinction of what had once been a halt became burred.

I can find nothing about the use of the term 'platform' but I wonder if it was something of a ruse to get away with an absolute minimmum of facilities for passengers while paying just enough attention to the 'Requirements to avoid problems with HMRI?
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#19 melmerby

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 21:59

Right trying again now that I'm back on drier land (although Staffordshire was not too bad when we left this morning). It is very useful that Jim mentioned Denham Golf Club because that has, I think, gone through all the permutations - in the 1929 public timetable it was 'Denham Golf Club Platform', and it still had that title in the 1954 public timetable. I then have a gap in my archive information but by 1960 it had become 'Denham Golf Club Halt' in the Sectional Appendix and while in the 1963 public timetable it had become 'Denham Golf Club', it was still 'Denham Golf Club Halt' in the 1969 Sectional Appendix! Now I'm fairly sure there was no change in its facilities between being a 'Platform' and a 'Halt' although I believe that in later years tickets were issued there.

The stations (sic) on the North Warwickshire line were a sprinkling of stations, platforms and halts and several changed their designation (sometimes more than once).
Example: (Grimes Hill &) Wythall

http://www.warwicksh...hillwythall.htm
http://en.wikipedia....railway_station

A good example of how a station can change is Whitlocks End, formally a sleepy wayside halt next on the way to Birmingham. Some years ago a car park was built which has now been extended a couple of times and the patronage has rocketed. It has all been rebuilt with massive disability ramps etc, but still has little in the way of facilities and could still be classed as a halt!
http://upload.wikime...y_station_1.jpg

Keith

#20 johnhutnick

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 07:14

Hello.  Would anyone be able to illustrate the geometry needed to create the four corner Pagoda roof curves?  I would build in 7mm.  A scale drawing shows the lengths, widths and heights, but not exactly what the curves are.



#21 sandra

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Posted 12 December 2014 - 10:32

There used to be a Pagoda in use as a cycle shed at Twyford. The Pagoda had three doors in the front rather than the usual arrangement of double doors and two windows. Otherwise it was identical to the standard Pagoda. I am not sure if Twyford counts as a large station but it does show that Pagodas could be found other than at small halts or platforms.

Sandra