Lynton & Barnstaple OO9 Loco from Heljan

[Stevelewis]

It  is  most  likely  that  given  the  problems  with  the  locos   which  were  released on to  the  market,  Heljan  will be  looking  most  carefully  at  the  options  they  have to  consider.

 

If  they   release  further  production,  now  it   would maybe be  more  likely  that  these  would  not  have had  any  remedial  action  taken  and  thus  create more  financial drain on  them  as   perhaps  more  faulty  locos  are  returned.

 

The   major  problem  appears  to  be  with  the  valve  gear  coming  apart,  Both  my  2  suffered  the  problem,  There  have  been several  instances  recorded.

 

If   the  already  manufactured  locos  are  deemed  to  have  to   have  remedial  action on  them  then  the  delay  may be  quite  long.

 

Phots  show  YEO,, I will try  to  locate  the  photos  of  EXE  which  also  failed  but  not  in  the  same  place,  ( Both  locos  long  since  returned!)

Edited July 17, 2017 by Stevelewis

[PaulRhB]

Further to Steve's pics it appears that Tim's loco suffered an extended failure that also ripped out the slidebars that started with the main crank pin not square to the crank. What we don't know is if it started out misaligned or came out due to insufficient glue. Steve may have been relatively lucky that the link failed rather than it trashing the slide bars too.

Hopefully the delay is Heljan looking at this  

[John B]

I'm much happier with a delayed release of product if they are fixing the issues that the first batch has shown. It's only a toy, after all, albeit an expensive one - much better late and fixed than on time and falling apart.

 

For me, with my nearest retailer 8,000 miles away, returning product is not a trivial matter..

[Stevelewis]

I'm much happier with a delayed release of product if they are fixing the issues that the first batch has shown. It's only a toy, after all, albeit an expensive one - much better late and fixed than on time and falling apart.

 

For me, with my nearest retailer 8,000 miles away, returning product is not a trivial matter..

 

I  have  to  agree  with  you  John,  absolutely  no  point  in  Heljan  releasing  further  production on to  the  market  if  they  have  not  looked  at  the  problems  which  have  been reported  and  no  doubt   been  examined    in  the  flesh  by  now.

 

If  the   'next' batch which  was  supposed to be  close  on  the  heels  of  the 1st  small batch has  been  shipped  to  Denmark already then  I  would   think  that  quite  a  few months  will elapse  before any further  release  takes  place, due  to  the  time  it  takes   to  ship  back  to  China  get  the  work  carried  out ( which  may  be  a  problem  if  the  factory  has  no manufacturing  slots  available)  and  then  re  ship  to  the  distribution point.

 

Personally  I  would  not  like  to  receive  my  2  replacements too quickly!!    I reckon  I  lost  around  2  weeks  modelling  time,   with  mine  trying  to  overcome  the  problems.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Stevelewis

[bertiedog]

Well.... if the remedial work warrants return to China, we shall have to wait, but there is little information on the "sold out" ones, thats the point I was making. If truly sold out, then that's it a wasted couple of years or more for nothing at all, at present, as all available ones will not the the first released, which was what was on order.

Heljan have a good track record of supplying further runs, so maybe in the distant future the early versions will reappear, unless in fact more have been retained to check over and still deliver. The problem is lack of information really.

Stephen

[sjgardiner]

I'm much happier with a delayed release of product if they are fixing the issues that the first batch has shown. It's only a toy, after all, albeit an expensive one - much better late and fixed than on time and falling apart.

 

For me, with my nearest retailer 8,000 miles away, returning product is not a trivial matter..

 

Same, I'd rather be sure that when mine makes the trip from the UK with the postal service, that any defects are from their mis-handling and i can make replacement/return their problem, than receiving a product that doesn't run.

 

I'm still looking forward to it arriving, but am happy to wait longer if that guarantees a resolution to the issues experienced by some in the early deliveries.

 

Stephen

[Stevelewis]

Well.... if the remedial work warrants return to China, we shall have to wait, but there is little information on the "sold out" ones, thats the point I was making. If truly sold out, then that's it a wasted couple of years or more for nothing at all, at present, as all available ones will not the the first released, which was what was on order.

Heljan have a good track record of supplying further runs, so maybe in the distant future the early versions will reappear, unless in fact more have been retained to check over and still deliver. The problem is lack of information really.

Stephen

 

The  facts  are  that  several  locos  were   returned  with  valve  gear  problems,  other  have   returned locos  due  to    derailing  on  perfectly  good  layouts,  so  it  is  fairly  obvious  that  some remedial  action  will be  necessary  to  provide  buyer  with   locos  that  actually  work  correctly,  I am  almost  certain  that  Heljan  probably  do  not  have   the  capacity  to  carry  out  such  work  themselves,

I recall that  some  time  ago   a loco which  was  a retailer  commission  arrived  in  the  UK  but  was  rejected  by  the manufacturer  and  the  whole  lot  was  returned  to  China, as  far  as  I am  aware,  the models  have  not  arrived  back  yet.

Perhaps  it  is  worth  actually   asking  Heljan themselves  for  information  their  contact  details  are  on  their  website    Heljan.dk  When  I  have  emailed them in  the  past  with  queries  I have   received  replies  quite  quickly  in  English.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Stevelewis

[simonbking]

Perhaps  it  is  worth  actually   asking  Heljan themselves  for  information  their  contact  details  are  on  their  website    Heljan.dk  When  I  have  emailed them in  the  past  with  queries  I have   received  replies  quite  quickly  in  English.

I tried that yesterday but they are on holiday until 1st August.

 

sk

[roundhouse]

I tried that yesterday but they are on holiday until 1st August.

sk

They must have gone to China

[Deltaskelta]

I too have been waiting for an "Exe" for some time and have read these posts with increasing concern.  At a recent west country model show a group of modellers were discussing the L&B project when one of their number, from East Devon, gave the information that "they" (a well respected local manufacturer and retailer) were very unhappy and had sent the entire first batch back to Heljan .  Not sure if this is entirely surprising but it suggests there is more to the problem than just limited supply.

[Edge]

I do think that things are being shown as rather one sided on the forums.

 

Are there issues? - yes there most certainly are, and Heljan are working on fixing them. the vast majority of models have been delivered in perfect working order and represent a superb step forward for the 009 modeller. Mine has now been running for the better part of ten hour overall without so much as a stutter, and there are large numbers of modellers out there who have yet to experience any problems with theirs either.   

[Deltaskelta]

Point taken and thank you for sharing your positive experience.  However, in the absence of information from the manufacturer it is hardly surprising that pre-purchasers will make their own enquiries.

 

For my part there is a world of difference between the long silence after ordering this L&B loco and the feedback I receive from Kernow on their projects for which I have similar pre-orders. 

 

I see from Railway Modeller that Heljan are proposing another run of the Class 14"Teddy Bear".  My example from the first batch is still running, minus the middle steps and after major repairs, but I won't be rushing to repeat the experience.  If this is typical of the time required to sort out mechanical issues then it bodes ill for any models with complex and innovative mechanisms.  Given the level of quality control necessary to achieve "out-of-the-box" reliability, the price of the L&B locos is probably far too low to achieve anything like 100% success.

[marowicz]

Further to Steve's pics it appears that Tim's loco suffered an extended failure that also ripped out the slidebars that started with the main crank pin not square to the crank. What we don't know is if it started out misaligned or came out due to insufficient glue.

Hopefully the delay is Heljan looking at this

Funny you should mention glue, I have a distinct impression that some of the failures are due to a sufficient quantity of glue. I've had a couple of bits fall off at the slightest touch and looking at them closely, 'glue' doesn seem to be present in what I would use in those situations. BTW thanks for all the investigative and remedial info.  Much appreciated. I had a slight accident with my 'Exe' when I was milling out the body for a sound decoder, nothing that cannot be fixed but I'm having to find a paint match for the green. It WILL go in.

 

Mark K

[Stevelewis]

I do think that things are being shown as rather one sided on the forums.

 

Are there issues? - yes there most certainly are, and Heljan are working on fixing them. the vast majority of models have been delivered in perfect working order and represent a superb step forward for the 009 modeller. Mine has now been running for the better part of ten hour overall without so much as a stutter, and there are large numbers of modellers out there who have yet to experience any problems with theirs either.   

 

My  EXE  ran  for  around  2  hours  before  valve  gear  failure  occurred,   YEO   failed  around  8 or  9  days  later   not  sure  how  many  actual  hours  it  ran for  but  given  the  layout  is a  continuous  run   looped  8, so  I  can  leave  trains  running  whilst  I   do  scenic  work  I reckon it must  have  exceeded 15+ hours  of  running  before  failure  occurred. There  was  another  report  from a  member  whose   loco's  valve  gear  failed very  quickly,  whilst  his  friends  had  had  over  a  weeks  running before  his  failed,  so  I feel  that the  valve gear  problem  may  be  a  bit  of  a ' time bomb'

 

I base the  time on  the  fact  that  I  am  allowed  to  play  trains in  the  shed  for   around  2 hrs  or  so  before  the  domestic  authorities shout  me  into  the  house to  carry  out  other  duties,  I am  sure  others  have  the  same  problem!! 

[bertiedog]

Frankly I am on the point of considering cancelling the orders for the locos, as Heljan seem unable to sort any supplies out.

I can't comment on the faults they sound minor to fix, it is simply the total lack of consideration for customers to not arrange the release so that all orders are fulfilled that is outrageous. They have organised a sweepstake where the lucky few get a delivery and then they do not care that people who ordered the item are left fuming at non delivery.

This is endemic in the model supply world, they are disorganised, and are ruining the hobby if this sort of mess continues. Hornby managed it with the Pecketts, now the L&B.........

[PaulRhB]

They tried to be nice by letting a few go rather than holding them all back to release together I got one out of three and Hattons haven't said anything one way or the other as to why so is it's not just Heljan being quiet.

I look on it as these will turn up faster than me building them from kits so I'm just spending the time building the layout ready

[Stevelewis]

Frankly I am on the point of considering cancelling the orders for the locos, as Heljan seem unable to sort any supplies out.

I can't comment on the faults they sound minor to fix, it is simply the total lack of consideration for customers to not arrange the release so that all orders are fulfilled that is outrageous. They have organised a sweepstake where the lucky few get a delivery and then they do not care that people who ordered the item are left fuming at non delivery.

This is endemic in the model supply world, they are disorganised, and are ruining the hobby if this sort of mess continues. Hornby managed it with the Pecketts, now the L&B.........

 

Most  of  the  issues  were  easy  to  fix,  I did  so on my  2  before  the  BIG issue occurred ( Valve  gear)  and  had  the  locos  running  fine,  To  recap  I disabled  the  spring  pickups  so the ponies  were  free to  move  horizontally,  adjusted  the  couplings   &  Cow catchers,  and  slightly  shaved  a  couple  of  Peco point  tie  bar Pips  which  were  fouling  the  low-set  valve gear  cover,  but  I  fear  the  valve  gear  issue is the  one which  was not  possible for  me  to  repair.

 

Re  the  release of the  first  small batch   I wonder  if  this  was intentional  to  gain  feedback  and  limit  the  returns?   As  far  as  I am  aware  there  has been no communication  from  Heljan  who  are  currently  on  Holiday apparently,  and  Peco  I  assume  have  an interest  in not  saying too much as  they have the   L&B rolling  stock to sell...........  I  have  now   put  my  L&B project  very  much  on   the  back  burner,  and   actually  sold off a lot  of  stock  as  some  may  have  noted  on  eBay!

[bertiedog]

If this fiasco was intentional to test te market in any way then Heljan should hang their heads in shame at the lack of feelings for the normal buyers. They should have waited till the problems were sorted, and released in one go, not pick a favoured group of people out of a hat and supplied them, and then used the early buyers to test the product.........

[Stevelewis]

If this fiasco was intentional to test te market in any way then Heljan should hang their heads in shame at the lack of feelings for the normal buyers. They should have waited till the problems were sorted, and released in one go, not pick a favoured group of people out of a hat and supplied them, and then used the early buyers to test the product.........

 

As  part  of  my  darer  was  as  a  marketing  manager  I can  tell you  that  it  is  a  common  practice  for  new  innovative  products  to  be  test  marketed  in  a small quantity  to  ascertain  if  any  additional  work  is  necessary  from  feedback  received,  this  is  considered  to  be  the  most economical  and  speedy method to use,  and  in   90% of what  I was  involved  with everything  worked  out  fine.

 

To say  that   they (Heljan) should  have  waited until  the  problems  were  sorted  begs  the  question how  would  they  know  what  the  problems  were?   Who  I  wonder  are  the  favoured group  of  people  ,  I can  just  imagine  Heljan  staff  sitting  around  a  table  with  a  big  hat  pulling  out  names,  bit  like  Harry Potter  & the  Hogwarts  Sorting  Hat 

[bertiedog]

Heljan would know the problems and sort them if the "maker" was the factory making the goods, where managers on the shop floor test items for sale, and the design team work directly in the same building. It requires designers who are involved on an hour to hour basis to check and check and check again what is being made. It is then tested by the management, who can use any tests they like, such as supplying samples to members of the public.

But all of this is done in private before any reach the shops!

 

Hreljan do no make them, they are Chinese made.Heljan therefore cannot be in the type of control that they should have, and this loco proves the system does not work.

 

I am not calling for the return of production to the UK or Europe, as long as the makers keep on top of what the Chinese produce. As I was in the model trade it makes me very worried that problems like this tend to kill interest in the hobby. I also worked in instrument production, optics and lab, and know the entire production process inside out. We never let any products on to the market without the most rigorous testing.

[Jeff Smith]

Heljan is probably right now trying to decide whether the faults reported are design faults or assembly faults - or more likely a combination of the two....

 

The fact that these problems have surfaced so quickly in operation of some individual models points to a lack of product testing of production representative models and/or quality control at the assembly point.

 

Field testing can be a useful tool for marketing but the product needs to be robust otherwise it can backfire badly - as possibly in this case.

 

Although this particular model, and RTR in general is not of interest to me to purchase, it is important for the whole hobby/industry that products are of good quality and successful.

[PaulRhB]

I don't think any manufacturer would deliberately release a faulty product to see what reaction they got

This is an assembly fault or material fault as there's nothing wrong with the design as far as I can see. The only change I would make is a metal motion bracket but I have plenty of locos with plastic ones that are fine after years.

Neither of those would necessarily show up in standard factory quality tests as they have happened after a varying amount of time. In the factory they probably ran them round a circuit twice so not quite enough to work whatever loose

[bertiedog]

Heljan is probably right now trying to decide whether the faults reported are design faults or assembly faults - or more likely a combination of the two....

 

The fact that these problems have surfaced so quickly in operation of some individual models points to a lack of product testing of production representative models and/or quality control at the assembly point.

 

Field testing can be a useful tool for marketing but the product needs to be robust otherwise it can backfire badly - as possibly in this case.

 

Although this particular model, and RTR in general is not of interest to me to purchase, it is important for the whole hobby/industry that products are of good quality and successful.

Exactly put......just think of the same problems added to the Peckett from Hornby, it had no problems, the only being Hornby's inability to understand how popular it would be. IF...only if, it had similar issues it would have been a disaster  for them

[bertiedog]

Testing is a bit more complex than test running, at the first production you only make a few dozen and these are run to death by testers, over several makes of track, over voltage testing, handling by kids, simple wear and tear tests, this takes weeks and involves the production manager refining the product, and then re-testing. The final test in most model companies was to hand out samples to board members children for final test of the overall product.

 

The Chinese factories do not test in the same way, they take the design and make what is specified. Fortunately these days the computer derived details are very good and if the files are correct all is well.

 

But the missing factor is still the Chinese factory, where the workers often have no idea of what they are assembling or even ever see the final products. The floor managers do not report problems as they do ot have a direct access to the designer, and may not understand the issues that lead to mistakes, or poor designs.

 

I do know about this as I know a Retired maker, who ran such factories. I did ask about testing etc, and he admitted it was left to the brand ordering the items to do this. Some brands are better at it than others, but when production starts on a Chinese production line it does not stop, there are no runs of samples in the finished form. Engineering samples are made, but these are modified to get the final product only on the instructions from the brand, leaving out the testing of the final items as they are produced.

 

None of this is knocking the Chinese factories they make things very well indeed, the problem is the company ordering them, and them  risking poorer testing than in the past.

 

Stephen

Edited July 25, 2017 by bertiedog

[Stevelewis]

I don't think any manufacturer would deliberately release a faulty product to see what reaction they got

This is an assembly fault or material fault as there's nothing wrong with the design as far as I can see. The only change I would make is a metal motion bracket but I have plenty of locos with plastic ones that are fine after years.

Neither of those would necessarily show up in standard factory quality tests as they have happened after a varying amount of time. In the factory they probably ran them round a circuit twice so not quite enough to work whatever loose

 

I don't  think  any  manufacturer  would  release  any  product  knowing  it  had  faults  to  test  the  market,  the  locos  were  finally  released  after  many  False Dawns  when  they probably  considered  they were  OK,  what  comes  into  question  though  was  why  in  the   months  before  they were  released,  were  so many advertised  released  dates passed and  further  delays  incurred, perhaps issue  had  been  identified  and  further  remedial  work  was  undertaken,   who  knows!