GWML Electification

[royaloak]

You know why that is, don't you?

 

DOO. 

 

It might not work with 12 car trains, and we couldn't have anyone scuppering that right wing dogma. (sorry if this is political). 

Looking at 12 tiny, delayed pictures showing 24 doors knowing a slight mistake could end up with you stood in front of the man with the funny wig is why most of us are against DOO, but what do I know about it eh!

 

Even the ORR have stated that DOO can be (notice how it doesnt say is) as safe as crew working as long as certain measures are put in place, have a guess how many of the current DOO routes are compliant?

I will give you a clue, it is less than one!

[royaloak]

Don't understand. 12 car DOO has been in operation on the GN for decades. Is there something on the GW that makes that a greater difficulty there?

 

(I do not make the argument for one or the other, just interested in what you perceive as the difference.)

As with most things it will state how many or what is allowed, I think the GWR DOO agreement allows up to 8 coaches (I havent read it because it doesnt apply to me), this will be another example of a company agreeing to something and then trying to change what they agreed to without consultation, but I suppose if we dont like it we should just get the hell out of his industry!

 

Oh and decades ago people were responsible for their own safety unlike today where the no win no fee brigade have focused the minds of the workforce, you know, the ones that will be sacrificed to save the company, that is one reason, I have several others.

Edited March 25, 2018 by royaloak

[jonny777]

Don't understand. 12 car DOO has been in operation on the GN for decades. Is there something on the GW that makes that a greater difficulty there?

 

(I do not make the argument for one or the other, just interested in what you perceive as the difference.)

 

 

The DfT are supposed to be unbiased, but ministerial civil servants always seem to have been anti-union (except theirs of course) since I have been alive.

 

12-car DOO might have worked on other regions with stations on straight track; but they don't know if any of the GWR stations might be on a curve which would give the anti-DOO a foot in the door (although that might not be noticed by the driver, but would be by the guard). 

 

 

1000 passengers with no on-board staff apart from the driver locked in his cab? Doesn't sound good if the Daily Telegraph get to hear about a unit failure between stations. 

[royaloak]

The DfT are supposed to be unbiased, 

PMSL times ten!

They are as unbiased as the ORR are!

 

Who pays for these Government departments again?

Whats that old saying about hands, feeding and biting?

 

One of the blokes who introduced DOO has stated they got it wrong and DOO should never have been implemented, he should know!

Times and expectations change and having just a driver on an 8, 10 or 12 coach train is not acceptable any more especially to lone women travelling late a night etc, and for those who state 'ah but they are keeping the second person on the train'  can you please tell me which, if any, DOO scheme in England still has a second person on board 18 months after the scheme was implemented please?

 

In India people travel on the roof and hanging off the sides of the trains, maybe we should start doing that as well, we could call it exterior class! 

Edited March 25, 2018 by royaloak

[caradoc]

An evening session with Mark Hopwood chaired by the MP John Howell on Firiday produced some interesting stuff.  

 

Best news (see also the Crossrail thread) is that GWR is proposing to continue running 2 off peak trains per hour east of Reading to Paddington once Crossrail is up and running through to Reading - these trains sound like an excellent improvement on the current abysmal off- peak timings as they will call only at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes, and Ealing Broadway and I asked that they be the ones to connect with the branches (which will of course remain GWR worked anyway).

 

(edited)

 

Interesting details on the timetable Stationmaster, coupled with your post on the Crossrail thread regarding their services. So the proposal between Reading and Paddington is two Crossrail all-stations, two Crossrail semi-fasts, and two GW semi-fasts, per hour; This makes timetable planning interesting; To avoid a semi-fast catching up with an all-stations, the two semi-fasts will presumably have to run immediately adjacent to each other, with the all stations then right behind from Reading/Paddington (unless one semi-fast uses the Main line, which seems unlikely given the current and future longer distance service). And then freight, and closer to London additional passenger services, have to be fitted in as well !

[The Stationmaster]

You know why that is, don't you?

 

DOO. 

 

It might not work with 12 car trains, and we couldn't have anyone scuppering that right wing dogma. (sorry if this is political). 

 

Nothing to do with DOO - the trains are already DOO (as were/are their DMU predecessors) and are already running in 12 car formations on a few workings.  (And they already call at stations where the platforms are on curved track.  as it happens changing the service I mentioned to 12 car would make virtually no difference stationwise as most of the stations where it will stop are too short to accomodate 12 coaches at the platform.)

Don't understand. 12 car DOO has been in operation on the GN for decades. Is there something on the GW that makes that a greater difficulty there?

 

(I do not make the argument for one or the other, just interested in what you perceive as the difference.)

 

No, there is absolutely nothing as far as I can think.  The only stations where all 12 cars can be platformed are staffed and have long had the necessary kit in place to cope with DOO worked trains.  The 8 car formations now operating on many workings covered by 387s are no longer than a combination of various 16X sets although few of them ran with formations longer than 6 cars and DOO has been in place for over 20 years on the suburban routes out of Paddington.  So all in all nothing new to worry about on the DOO front and of course the 387s have SDO which the 16X do not hence the ability to stop 12 car formations at stations which don't have platforms long enough to hold 12 cars.

 

BTW my reference to GWR having to rather ridiculously seek permission from DafT to increase a train from 8 cars to 12 was my point not Mark's - he merely mentioned it as one of the things which needed to be done before the 12 car formation could be introduced.  and mu point is that use, within planned availability level, of a set to strengthen a train is hardly the sort of thing that Daft need be involved in unless the management contract extends to them micro-managing set diagramming.

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting details on the timetable Stationmaster, coupled with your post on the Crossrail thread regarding their services. So the proposal between Reading and Paddington is two Crossrail all-stations, two Crossrail semi-fasts, and two GW semi-fasts, per hour; This makes timetable planning interesting; To avoid a semi-fast catching up with an all-stations, the two semi-fasts will presumably have to run immediately adjacent to each other, with the all stations then right behind from Reading/Paddington (unless one semi-fast uses the Main line, which seems unlikely given the current and future longer distance service). And then freight, and closer to London additional passenger services, have to be fitted in as well !

Exactly so.  I suspect the two semi-fasts will inevitably have to run fairly close together and the stopper will be spaced well away from them with a freight path in between.  But that assumes sensible timetabling and use of line capacity rather than some bright idea from the inexperienced bunch at TfL (as in inexperienced when it comes to running trains on a mixed traffic railway with really heavy and fast freight trains and high speed passenger trains).  It will be very interesting to see if the agreement I secured back in the early 1990s to protect freight paths after the advent of Crossrail survives through the latest ideas.

 

Logically the ideal pattern would be for the Up GWR semi-fast to be first and then either a fast freight path plus a reasonable interval then the semi-fast Crossrail train or the. Crossrail semi-fast running closely behind the GWR semi-fast and the freight running at the back of that group. The real problem comes with positioning the all stations stopper as there us basically nowhere west of Acton to get it out of the way for a semi-fast to overtake it.    I suspect that the all stations train might well finish up on some sort of skip stop basis in order to preserve line capacity.  However it is done it is certainly going to provide some pathing challenges.

[phil-b259]

 I suspect that the all stations train might well finish up on some sort of skip stop basis in order to preserve line capacity.  However it is done it is certainly going to provide some pathing challenges.

 

IIRC, all Crossrail services on the GWML are planned to be skip stopping within the M25 precisely for that reason (causing moans in certain quarters that direct journeys between say Southall and Hanwell will not be possible on the Elizabeth line. Mind you said people are normally very much TfL centric and have very little concern about the needs of anyone other than Crossrail (particularly when it comes to freight users) and are usually the ones loudly defending the 'tube' aspects of the new service.

[chrisf]

Let me see if I have got this right.  Part of the westbound Crossrail service will be turned back at Paddington for want of a more westerly destination.  At the same time GWR plans to run stopping electric trains from Paddington to Reading.  One of the justiifications for Crossrail was to free platform space at Paddington, and of course at Liverpool Street.  Do any of the project team know that?

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

IIRC, all Crossrail services on the GWML are planned to be skip stopping within the M25 precisely for that reason (causing moans in certain quarters that direct journeys between say Southall and Hanwell will not be possible on the Elizabeth line. Mind you said people are normally very much TfL centric and have very little concern about the needs of anyone other than Crossrail (particularly when it comes to freight users) and are usually the ones loudly defending the 'tube' aspects of the new service.

 

Quite agree Phil - which is why I was a little surprised to see something as daft 'all stations' from Reading.  My own view is that they're going to shove in, or try to shove in, so many trains that reliability and resilience will suffer.  They're way over UIC fiche limits east of West Drayton (the Mains are already over that measure and have been for some years) so the simplest little thing could wreck the service.   Great shame really that if TfL want to takeover the world they can't be bothered to build their own railway in which to do it.

 

I was interested to learn the other evening - from commuter group reps - that there is increasing concern over journey times (to London) from various stations in the Mid thames Valley which is even starting to worry local councils as well.  Strikes me as a double edged sword in some respects but I certainly find the slow trip to/from London a constraint on my leisure travel.

[The Stationmaster]

Let me see if I have got this right.  Part of the westbound Crossrail service will be turned back at Paddington for want of a more westerly destination.  At the same time GWR plans to run stopping electric trains from Paddington to Reading.  One of the justiifications for Crossrail was to free platform space at Paddington, and of course at Liverpool Street.  Do any of the project team know that?

 

Chris

Yes but the inner suburban trains will no longer use Paddington once the Heathrow stoppers and Hayes stoppers run to/from the Underground section of. Crossrail and the number of GWR services from West of Hayes over the Reliefs will also fall.

[phil-b259]

Let me see if I have got this right.  Part of the westbound Crossrail service will be turned back at Paddington for want of a more westerly destination.  At the same time GWR plans to run stopping electric trains from Paddington to Reading.  One of the justiifications for Crossrail was to free platform space at Paddington, and of course at Liverpool Street.  Do any of the project team know that?

 

Chris

 

Correct - however unless you have been living on another planet you will know by now that Thames Valley commuters (and the good Stationmaster on these forums) are VERY hostile to the new tube train interiors being used by TfL and would much prefer to keep their far more comfortable and properly laid out Electrostar EMUs (with their large amount of seating instead of acres of standing room) and the presence of toilets.

[Mike Storey]

At the extreme risk of pillory with wet haddocks and rotten tomatoes on this thread, I still have to say that, having used the NLL/ELL Overground regularly before and after the new trains were introduced, and for journeys of 45 mins or more, I found them to be perfectly adequate, and for two reasons:

 

1. In the peaks, on the previous 313's, a seat was often unobtainable anyway, and the very limited standing room was highly congested and very difficult to keep balance, given the few grabs or handles. In the peaks on the new trains, standing was much easier and more acceptable. Circulation was also much, much easier, so there was no panic when your station drew near.

 

2. In the off-peak, when one could often get a seat when the frequency was increased (and even more so when lengthened), I quickly got used to sitting sideways, and it was a bonus not to have to worry about the feet/legs/shopping/babies/dog/pushchair/briefcase/enormous suitcase, of the person in front of you. It was also a lot easier to see where you were - I don't why exactly, it just was.

 

I do not argue that the seats are more comfortable, or that the lack of toilets is a "good thing", but what I would say is that, if predictions are half-way correct, passenger numbers will grow far faster than the extra capacity of any new trains. That is what happened on the NLL, but the opposite - growth was twice as fast as predicted. Also, travel patterns will change with the advent of connections (or the need to change) for Heathrow, Paddington or to go down the hole, let alone the other branches, so fewer people will just sit in their seat to the terminus as was more the case before. Once in the hole, people will be scrabbling to get out at "their" stop. The new trains will make this much easier than the conventional idea of a train.

 

I realise the transformation from a 313 to the 378 is less of a jolt to that from what GW passengers have become used to, compared to a 710, but many of the same protests were made at their introduction. Those complaints had largely disappeared within a year, given the other benefits delivered.

 

So my contention is that, even though perhaps the seats are less comfortable, and there are fewer of them, and toilets are for wimps, overall stress of the journey will decrease, for the types and volumes of journeys likely to become the norm.

[locoholic]

At the extreme risk of pillory with wet haddocks and rotten tomatoes on this thread, I still have to say that, having used the NLL/ELL Overground regularly before and after the new trains were introduced, and for journeys of 45 mins or more, I found them to be perfectly adequate, and for two reasons:

 

1. In the peaks, on the previous 313's, a seat was often unobtainable anyway, and the very limited standing room was highly congested and very difficult to keep balance, given the few grabs or handles. In the peaks on the new trains, standing was much easier and more acceptable. Circulation was also much, much easier, so there was no panic when your station drew near.

 

2. In the off-peak, when one could often get a seat when the frequency was increased (and even more so when lengthened), I quickly got used to sitting sideways, and it was a bonus not to have to worry about the feet/legs/shopping/babies/dog/pushchair/briefcase/enormous suitcase, of the person in front of you. It was also a lot easier to see where you were - I don't why exactly, it just was.

 

I do not argue that the seats are more comfortable, or that the lack of toilets is a "good thing", but what I would say is that, if predictions are half-way correct, passenger numbers will grow far faster than the extra capacity of any new trains. That is what happened on the NLL, but the opposite - growth was twice as fast as predicted. Also, travel patterns will change with the advent of connections (or the need to change) for Heathrow, Paddington or to go down the hole, let alone the other branches, so fewer people will just sit in their seat to the terminus as was more the case before. Once in the hole, people will be scrabbling to get out at "their" stop. The new trains will make this much easier than the conventional idea of a train.

 

I realise the transformation from a 313 to the 378 is less of a jolt to that from what GW passengers have become used to, compared to a 710, but many of the same protests were made at their introduction. Those complaints had largely disappeared within a year, given the other benefits delivered.

 

So my contention is that, even though perhaps the seats are less comfortable, and there are fewer of them, and toilets are for wimps, overall stress of the journey will decrease, for the types and volumes of journeys likely to become the norm.

Haddock and rotten tomatoes in hand, I do not share your enthusiasm for the Class 378 Overground trains - I find the sideways seating uncomfortable, and it makes me tired and a bit travel-sick. I'm always glad when I reach my destination.

[Zomboid]

TfL undoubtedly transformed and vastly improved the NLL and WLL services, and Euston - Watford is also enhanced since they took over (I've no experience of the Liverpool Street services, so can't comment on those).

The Crossrail trains will be very good for the tunnel and inner London services. I don't think anyone will dispute that. TfL are really good at that kind of thing. It's the outer suburban service that they seem to be applying an inappropriate one size fits all approach to.

Hopefully some choice will be offered further out, and then it'll be interesting to see which choices get made. I actually suspect that the Crossrail trains will be fairly popular because Paddington is a badly laid out (for onward tube connections) and fairly poorly located station which Crossrail will avoid. But time will tell...

[caradoc]

Haddock and rotten tomatoes in hand, I do not share your enthusiasm for the Class 378 Overground trains - I find the sideways seating uncomfortable, and it makes me tired and a bit travel-sick. I'm always glad when I reach my destination.

 

Agree re the 378 seating - Could they not have at least some seats where you could actually see out of the windows properly ? However, it has to be said that overall the level and quality of service on the North London (and associated) Lines is light years ahead of when I first knew it in the 1970s, when closure of the NLL was seriously proposed; This seems incredible now !

[caradoc]

TfL undoubtedly transformed and vastly improved the NLL and WLL services, and Euston - Watford is also enhanced since they took over (I've no experience of the Liverpool Street services, so can't comment on those).

The Crossrail trains will be very good for the tunnel and inner London services. I don't think anyone will dispute that. TfL are really good at that kind of thing. It's the outer suburban service that they seem to be applying an inappropriate one size fits all approach to.

Hopefully some choice will be offered further out, and then it'll be interesting to see which choices get made. I actually suspect that the Crossrail trains will be fairly popular because Paddington is a badly laid out (for onward tube connections) and fairly poorly located station which Crossrail will avoid. But time will tell...

 

A journey I make fairly regularly is Oxford to Liverpool St (for the East); Once Crossrail is fully open I anticipate travelling by GW Class 800 to Slough and changing there to the first available EMU towards Lonodn; If a 387 turned up first I would take that to the last possible station where I could change onto a Crossrail train. It is a pity the GWML tracks are not paired by Direction (to allow cross-platform connections) rather than speed, but it is probably too late to change that now !

 

Crossrail will revolutionise onward travel into London from Paddington, that is for sure.

[billbedford]

Correct - however unless you have been living on another planet you will know by now that Thames Valley commuters (and the good Stationmaster on these forums) are VERY hostile to the new tube train interiors being used by TfL and would much prefer to keep their far more comfortable and properly laid out Electrostar EMUs (with their large amount of seating instead of acres of standing room) and the presence of toilets.

 

 

Yes, but then... The Thames Valley is known to be the home of those true Englishmen who believe that any change will be a change for the worse.

[jbqfc]

for some people like me who suffer from crohn's or colitis a Toilet is a must 

Edited March 27, 2018 by jbqfc

[The Stationmaster]

TfL undoubtedly transformed and vastly improved the NLL and WLL services, and Euston - Watford is also enhanced since they took over (I've no experience of the Liverpool Street services, so can't comment on those).

The Crossrail trains will be very good for the tunnel and inner London services. I don't think anyone will dispute that. TfL are really good at that kind of thing. It's the outer suburban service that they seem to be applying an inappropriate one size fits all approach to.

Hopefully some choice will be offered further out, and then it'll be interesting to see which choices get made. I actually suspect that the Crossrail trains will be fairly popular because Paddington is a badly laid out (for onward tube connections) and fairly poorly located station which Crossrail will avoid. But time will tell...

 

One of the committee members of our local commuter group has done a comparison of forward journey times in London based on  known data about the position of the Crossrail platforms and expected journey times.  He came up with numbers which show a lot of journeys when the connection at Paddington (or elsewhere on Crossrail) is taken into account will be longer compared with arriving at the mainline station at Paddington.  Clearly some journeys will potentially be quicker especially compared with the current use of the Central Line and Bakerloo Line but that is then very much dependent on the journey time from station of origin to Paddington and any station from Maidenhead outwards which has peak hour non-stop services to/from Paddington will probably continue to offer a faster overall journey time than Crossrail throughout.  

 

Obviously there's no way even a semi-fast Crossrail train from Reading is going to compete time wise with a Class 800 running nonstop and I suspect - depending on interchange time at Paddington - it would be equally hard put to compete with a non-stop (or single stop) Class 387 in from Twyford.  For passengers who aren't going to Crossrail destinations or via easy interchange points the situation becomes even clearer although Platform 14 to the Circle/District Line at Paddington will probably take longer than it does from the Crossrail platforms.

 

As for people getting used to it I do wonder.  Fares are rising and people will increasingly look for value for their money which translates into journey time and on-train facilities - by the time Crossrail comes in passengers will be well used to wi-fi at their seats on a 387 let alone the ability to actually get a comfortable seat. (and I remain somewhat sceptical if travelling sideways at 90mph facing a blur of lineside scenery and power masts will appeal to many people).   Possibly easy(ish) to get a forward facing seat travelling inwards from the outer stations but equally when travelling home the chances of getting one are much reduced - and many travellers are, whatever the industry might say, of the view that paying over £4,500 pa for their season ticket (including Travelcard) entitles them to a seat.  The story is perhaps somewhat akin to the time when Hornby foisted 'design clever' on what turned out to be an unappreciative market of railway modellers - if you reduce the perceived quality of the offer and seek to be paid more for giving less your customers will show their displeasure in various ways.

 

All well and good if a new train offers an advance over what it replaces but unfortunately as a train on which to travel Crossrail won't do that apart from simplifying many journeys, especially from Slough and east thereof.  But an outer suburban train it is not and it is inevitably being perceived as a step backwards by many passengers.

[Northroader]

If you arrive at peak hours at Paddington off a HST, the next thing is either on to the H&C or Bakerloo for your onward journey. Its a regular occurrence that the stations are closed for ten minutes or more for safety reasons due to the crush of people waiting for the underground to clear. Whilst Crossrail will be faster for the last stage of the journey into central London, the same thing is bound to happen for that.

[Mike Storey]

One of the committee members of our local commuter group has done a comparison of forward journey times in London based on  known data about the position of the Crossrail platforms and expected journey times.  He came up with numbers which show a lot of journeys when the connection at Paddington (or elsewhere on Crossrail) is taken into account will be longer compared with arriving at the mainline station at Paddington.  Clearly some journeys will potentially be quicker especially compared with the current use of the Central Line and Bakerloo Line but that is then very much dependent on the journey time from station of origin to Paddington and any station from Maidenhead outwards which has peak hour non-stop services to/from Paddington will probably continue to offer a faster overall journey time than Crossrail throughout.  

 

Obviously there's no way even a semi-fast Crossrail train from Reading is going to compete time wise with a Class 800 running nonstop and I suspect - depending on interchange time at Paddington - it would be equally hard put to compete with a non-stop (or single stop) Class 387 in from Twyford.  For passengers who aren't going to Crossrail destinations or via easy interchange points the situation becomes even clearer although Platform 14 to the Circle/District Line at Paddington will probably take longer than it does from the Crossrail platforms.

 

As for people getting used to it I do wonder.  Fares are rising and people will increasingly look for value for their money which translates into journey time and on-train facilities - by the time Crossrail comes in passengers will be well used to wi-fi at their seats on a 387 let alone the ability to actually get a comfortable seat. (and I remain somewhat sceptical if travelling sideways at 90mph facing a blur of lineside scenery and power masts will appeal to many people).   Possibly easy(ish) to get a forward facing seat travelling inwards from the outer stations but equally when travelling home the chances of getting one are much reduced - and many travellers are, whatever the industry might say, of the view that paying over £4,500 pa for their season ticket (including Travelcard) entitles them to a seat.  The story is perhaps somewhat akin to the time when Hornby foisted 'design clever' on what turned out to be an unappreciative market of railway modellers - if you reduce the perceived quality of the offer and seek to be paid more for giving less your customers will show their displeasure in various ways.

 

All well and good if a new train offers an advance over what it replaces but unfortunately as a train on which to travel Crossrail won't do that apart from simplifying many journeys, especially from Slough and east thereof.  But an outer suburban train it is not and it is inevitably being perceived as a step backwards by many passengers.

 

I entirely get what you are saying. However......once I was out of NR and having to pay over £6k a year for my season ticket between Peterborough & All Zones, I had the choice of HST's or Mark IV's, but could rarely get a seat on either of them in the morning peak. I therefore judged them on the quality of standing or half-perched in their vestibules, and the Mark IV's won hands down on that score. I also had to change twice in order to get to my usual destination. But it did not stop continuing, phenomenal growth from Peterborough. I relented and tried the cheaper WAGN-only season ticket, whereby I could at least get a seat from Peterborough. Few people further Up the line could though.

 

That is why I suggest that growth will happen - the ability to go direct to the City or Canary Wharf will be a huge draw for many (in the way that the Jubilee line pushed up house prices in NW London, and in the way that the DLR did the same to parts of East London too) and that the quality of seating will become less of the issue it is currently.

[jim.snowdon]

If you arrive at peak hours at Paddington off a HST, the next thing is either on to the H&C or Bakerloo for your onward journey. Its a regular occurrence that the stations are closed for ten minutes or more for safety reasons due to the crush of people waiting for the underground to clear. Whilst Crossrail will be faster for the last stage of the journey into central London, the same thing is bound to happen for that.

Probably less so, as the Crossrail platforms will have platform edge doors and are probably wider. The Bakerloo line platforms are none too wide, currently constricted by temporary hoardings for Crossrail works and quite tightly curved. The other complication is that there isn't much space at the bottom of the escalators and any back up there has the potential to be a serious safety risk.

 

Jim

[Zomboid]

If they close the platform access at Paddington Crossrail to prevent over crowding then it won't matter one bit too those who got on the Crossrail trains further out.

[Mike Storey]

It used to be a regular feature at Canary Wharf for the Jubilee to shut us out at the top of the escalators, due to overcrowding in the evening peak, even with the platform-edge doors. The local bars made a fortune. But once they had sorted out the new-fangled signalling, and the frequencies increased dramatically, all that stopped. My liver was grateful, at least.