A Borchester Market layout appreciation topic

[60526]

Diesels - In the Model Railways Sept 80 article FD describes "plus one item which can be described as "off the shelf", and that is an Airfix Brush type 2 diesel, which is needed for my Cambridge trains, for by 1958 Stratford shed was almost 100 per cent diesel. The model has had its wheels regauged to OO standards, the roofs have been altered to conform to the early batch, without indicators; headcode discs have been fitted, and the whole loco repainted. I must confess to my dislike of the rubber traction tyres, which work fine when the model is new, but after ageing and a bit of normal dirt on them, slip like mad leaving a loco with very limited traction". This was the toffee-apple D5502. The BM station pilot was "based on the Drewry version of the 204hp Gardener-engined diesel-mechanical shunter. The body is from an Airfix kit, with added detail and repainted, mounted on my own hand-built chassis, complete with jackshaft and counterweights. She had to be weighted up very much to do her job, and now with a recently-fitted K's motor she will pull almost anything. Painted in the then-new dazzle paint, she looks colourful, and noting some shunters at Stratford with red-painted side-rods, I did so on this model with commendable results". This would be the Drewry 04 diesel shunter D2222. He also had an 08 shunter, "One of the standard 350hp English Electric design, the body being a moulding by Kitmaster, mounted on a hand-built chassis, and she is mostly used on short-trip workings." There was also a EE type 1 or cl20 if you prefer and a Lima met-cam DMU.

Going back to the question of signal operation, here is a couple of photos of the underside of the goods yard board, the first by Chris Nevard and the second by Tony Wright.

[Combe Martin]

Note the underside of the board in the 2nd photo.  Its the trackbed of Franks old Borchester Town layout I believe.  Frank never wasted anything, he just turned the boards upside down and re-used them.

[Danemouth]

That open frame transformer and rectifier in the second photo is rather frightening - imagine H & S today!

 

I assume that it has now been decommissioned  :yes:

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[kevinlms]

That open frame transformer and rectifier in the second photo is rather frightening - imagine H & S today!

 

I assume that it has now been decommissioned  :yes:

 

Regards,

 

Dave

Now you mention it, just have a look at the old selenium diode rectifier! I wonder what the ratings are of it?

[60526]

Well, it is still used, it's enclosed during use.

 

 

This is the transformer for the turntable, again still used and enclosed during use.

 

 

If you want some fun then up until just before our invite to Warley in 2013 we were using this as the main point transformer

 

[Danemouth]

My knowledge of mains electric is somewhat sketchy so I am always extremely cautious.

 

That point transformer scares me to death, given its age I wonder if the insulation is breaking down? No wonder you decommissioned it.

 

Will the other transformers and rectifiers be replaced as refurbishment proceeds?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[60526]

The main transformer is very heavy, but possibly 5 or 6 years ago it was tested by an electrical engineer and was found to be within limits so was ok. But sometime in 2013 we were starting to look at the condition of one of the ex RAF point motors and decided to check on the transformer output voltage, we were reading 27-28 volts so decided to change it for this -

 

 

I mentioned earlier that we were starting to talk about doing something with the GN fiddleyard control panel. As usual everything was working ok pre York and you get there, set-up and something is not quite right. Apologies about the quality of photo but this is the back of the panel, there are four original sockets here, two on the end, the black one on the back and there is a round socket which is located on the back of the panel about half way along, the 25 way and small Din sockets are temporary additions that are for the new circuit put in for the colliery bell, previously there was only one bell and that was under the BM station board so the guy operating the GN fyard could not always hear the sound.  -

 

 

And this is the bunch of plugs that have to fit into the back of the panel, the choc-block was for the fix we had to do on one of the wires. And that tape around the wires you are looking at is masking tape and is a solid lump, you have to use a knife to cut through it to get it off.

 

 

And this is the offending plug, second row, number 2, probably broke due to fatigue, could easily be 60 years old. What you can't see is all the soldered wire joints on the back. Sometime ago we did cut back some frayed wires and re-soldered these but this is one of the main reasons why we are considering something more drastic on the panel, pulling these wires around to fit the panel is not a good idea and of course flexes the wires underneath the board. We now have a failed plug.

 

 

 

[DCB]

 

 

Another question, in deliberating over what to do with the GN fyard control panel, has anyone any experience with using a diode matrix for switching up to 5 or 6 H&M point motors? 

I built a three diode matrixes capacitor discharge system  for H and M point motors operating Peco Streamline 00 points some 30 years ago which is still going strong.    It uses electric pencil and three matrixes are all fed from the single capacitor. There are up to 5 points to throw and to avoid damage dead loads, spare H and M coils, are used so there is at least 4 motors in circuit whenever anything operates otherwise the point blades can get ripped out of the tie bars.

 

I have no CDU, the Capacitor which I think is 50 volts just floats on a 16 volt transformer and as I said feeds any of the 3 diode matrixes through an electric pencil with the matrixes all being common return.

 

The Matrix are simply 1N400 diodes with insulating sleeving over their bare wires connected between choc box wiring connectors screwed to hardboard. The pencil which has a sprung contact from an old mains light fitting  touches 4BA brass bolt heads which are connected to the matrixes with car wiring, 5 amp?

 

I also have made  matrixes with a 6 way rotary switch for selecting the route and a push button to energies it

[60526]

David, that's good food for thought, had gone away from thinking about the electric pencil but a rotary switch and push button sounds a good choice.

[60526]

Just a little bit of an update, was asked the other day where our next venture out was going to be, well we were going to take time to effect more permanent wiring repairs around the GN fyard panel but hey ho Newhaven Club is not having its lease renewed, so we are out at the end of September and Borchester Market is now stacked and stored up away from the clubroom, no chance of running it in the short term, it’s back in it’s purpose built garden shed “Borchester Towers” near Brighton and we've got to compress things somewhat to make way for storing at least another layout or two next to it. Newhaven is certain not the centre of the universe, it's a poor cousin in between the likes of Brighton and Eastbourne, land has been bought up in the area for mad schemes over time and then sold on before anything is built. An example, Parker Pens used to be down the road, it was sold to a French Company, the factory was closed, everyone was made redundant, production was moved to France, the factory site was flattened and it is still like it. Where we are the land has been sold on at least twice over the last 18 months, adjacent to Harbour station in amongst the plans is a 12 story hotel, for anyone who knows the area this is nuts, like people who moved into new dwellings on the West Quay, they will have a lovely view of the scrap yard just beyond the ferry terminal and marina station. Our old clubrooms which is next to the down Harbour platform has plans to turn it into I assume a gastro pub, best of luck with that. But we are where we are, a bit led on by the developer perhaps, he wants to be seen to be doing things for the community, really, we’ve been offered a new lease but the catch is £5K pa, they need a quick answer because somebody else is interested in taking on the lease. It begs the question, do any other clubs pay anything like this for an annual lease. 

Edited August 5, 2016 by 60526

[TerryD1471]

Just a little bit of an update, was asked the other day where our next venture out was going to be, well we were going to take time to effect more permanent wiring repairs around the GN fyard panel but hey ho Newhaven Club is not having its lease renewed, so we are out at the end of September and Borchester Market is now stacked and stored up away from the clubroom, no chance of running it in the short term, it’s back in it’s purpose built garden shed “Borchester Towers” near Brighton and we've got to compress things somewhat to make way for storing at least another layout or two next to it. Newhaven is certain not the centre of the universe, it's a poor cousin in between the likes of Brighton and Eastbourne, land has been bought up in the area for mad schemes over time and then sold on before anything is built. An example, Parker Pens used to be down the road, it was sold to a French Company, the factory was closed, everyone was made redundant, production was moved to France, the factory site was flattened and it is still like it. Where we are the land has been sold on at least twice over the last 18 months, adjacent to Harbour station in amongst the plans is a 12 story hotel, for anyone who knows the area this is nuts, like people who moved into new dwellings on the West Quay, they will have a lovely view of the scrap yard just beyond the ferry terminal and marina station. Our old clubrooms which is next to the down Harbour platform has plans to turn it into I assume a gastro pub, best of luck with that. But we are where we are, a bit led on by the developer perhaps, he wants to be seen to be doing things for the community, really, we’ve been offered a new lease but the catch is £5K pa, they need a quick answer because somebody else is interested in taking on the lease. It begs the question, do any other clubs pay anything like this for an annual lease. 

Yes, as treasurer for Wolverhampton Model Railway Club, I have to report that paying a "commercial" rent seems to be the only option nowadays. We had a very understanding landlord for about 3 decades and during this time the club did quite well. We were always mindful that one day our luck would run out, so we approached the city council on a few occasions, hoping that they might be supportive but the initially helpful response from them as far as several future potential properties was always dashed. My opinion of the council as far as helping community projects like ours was, like that of others in our club, was "they're a waste of space!"

 

The upshot is that while once upon a time, it was possible to rely on one's council to be sympathetic and helpful in finding a disused council-owned building, scout hut or other structure to house the club at a reasonably cheap rate, those days are now long gone, and the high cost of commercial rents these days is threatening the existence of many a club.

 

Terry D

[RANGERS]

Yes, as treasurer for Wolverhampton Model Railway Club, I have to report that paying a "commercial" rent seems to be the only option nowadays. We had a very understanding landlord for about 3 decades and during this time the club did quite well. We were always mindful that one day our luck would run out, so we approached the city council on a few occasions, hoping that they might be supportive but the initially helpful response from them as far as several future potential properties was always dashed. My opinion of the council as far as helping community projects like ours was, like that of others in our club, was "they're a waste of space!"

 

The upshot is that while once upon a time, it was possible to rely on one's council to be sympathetic and helpful in finding a disused council-owned building, scout hut or other structure to house the club at a reasonably cheap rate, those days are now long gone, and the high cost of commercial rents these days is threatening the existence of many a club.

 

Terry D

Whilst I'd tend to agree, our local council were extremely supportive of the local club and numerous other community groups. Funding through grants and low cost loans was available when they needed it, much of it on a matched basis and whilst the council weren't responsible for actually providing it, they were a useful 'clearing house' for what was available and helped with accessing it. They also helped with the applications for lottery funding.

 

All this was pre-austerity mind, such is the pressure nowadays, I doubt the resources exist to be quite as helpful as they were in the early 2000

[glo41f]

Just caught up with this. I must say that I am saddened to learn that BM is stored and not likely to emerge in the near future. This business of model clubs and premises is a permanent issue in the hobby. Our interests consume space and, especially in the south of the country, it is very unlikely that spacious accommodation can be had at a rent that clubs can afford or are prepared to pay. Local authorities now are always looking for a chance to make some money and their benevolence can no longer be relied upon. By paying a "commercial" rent the club subscriptions have to be raised putting it out of the reach of many on tight budgets. Is there an answer?

 

I hope Newhaven get something sorted soon as the limbo situation can kill a club which has perforce no focus.  At least BM is safe fro the present!

 

Martin Long

[Willie Whizz]

Just caught up with this. I must say that I am saddened to learn that BM is stored and not likely to emerge in the near future. This business of model clubs and premises is a permanent issue in the hobby. Our interests consume space and, especially in the south of the country, it is very unlikely that spacious accommodation can be had at a rent that clubs can afford or are prepared to pay. Local authorities now are always looking for a chance to make some money and their benevolence can no longer be relied upon. By paying a "commercial" rent the club subscriptions have to be raised putting it out of the reach of many on tight budgets. Is there an answer?

 

I hope Newhaven get something sorted soon as the limbo situation can kill a club which has perforce no focus.  At least BM is safe fro the present!

 

Martin Long

 

One can (and many do ...) argue almost indefinitely about how Councils prioritise the spending of their money (of which a large part - but not all - comes from 'our' money in the first place).  But the undeniable fact is that they have, proportionately, a lot less of it than they used to - with some of the bigger Cities suffering disproportionately; and many organisations in the Voluntary and Community Sectors have found their funding cut or withdrawn altogether in the last few years.  I would like to see local model railway clubs thrive and prosper, but if I had to rank Council support to them as a priority at a time of scarce resources, it would fall somewhat below being able - for example - to continue providing  an acceptable level of social care for the elderly and infirm.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Willie Whizz

[glo41f]

Willie

 

I agree up to a point and would say the overall priority must be "people care" . However, taking my local authority as an example, they spend a lot on art (a huge gallery that nobody visits) and subsidies to performing arts (again for a section of folk but not for everyone)  Museums full of artifacts that nobody goes to must cost a lot. Could railway modelling be viewed as a performing art? There are some layouts which would certainly qualify for this description.

 

Martin Long

[Willie Whizz]

Martin, I concur with this too.

 

There are various influences in play here - to name but a few:

• It's always easier to obtain Government or Local Government funding for anything if your service or project is currently "Flavour of the Month".  Ten years or so ago when I was working for a LA on 'business support' for early years and childcare, money was practically being thrown at the sector, with varying degrees of success; now I gather there's little or nothing available.
• People complain that Councils pay insufficient attention to local views of what the area needs - so they do surveys, which tend to be completed on the whole by those who are not happy rather than those who are.  When acted-upon, these surveys tend therefore to make Councils change their priorities, to try and satisfy the most vocal critics.
• Councillors - especially in urban areas - are often these days professional or semi-professional politicians, who obey "Rule 1" of politics (as opposed to railway modelling!) which is, of course, "Get elected; then get re-elected".  There are very few votes in being seen to support a model railway club; sadly it is not - in most peoples' eyes - a 'valued community asset'.
• In the latter context, most MRCs are "low profile" for 51 weeks and 5 days of the year, only really registering in public consciousness for the one weekend they hold their Annual Show.  In such straitened financial times as we have these days, it is therefore perhaps a legitimate question to ask whether it is fair and justifiable to, in effect, subsidise the hobby of a couple of dozen local residents which puts little back into its community (because frankly there's not a lot it can put back, however willing in principle), and where the 'profile' of participants would probably show a majority of middle-aged and older white males.

It's hard, and I'm sad to say it, but I suspect this is the most likely way the future will look.

[60526]

Newhaven club having now been in smaller premises now for a few months, it's interesting to take a step back and realise that the club apart from a place to do some modelling in a space greater than you might have at home, or to just come and play trains, is also a social amenity. In the previous premises we were able to provide wheelchair even scooter access, unfortunately we can no longer offer that facility, we've lost one member because of this and had to decline a new member because we cannot offer access. We've also now got an ex member rejoin the club, he is suffer from Alzheimer’s and as club Secretary it puts your brain cells in a different place trying to find out how you deal with this. It must be working because he is more than pleased with coming down every week and we're starting to help him re-build his American HO layout. It's a bit of an education really, I can see that having this type of illness is not funny, but on the hand we must be doing something right because he is certainly enjoying himself and probably different company to talk to.

Borchester, as mentioned earlier we do have plans to keep restoring the layout and improve reliability but must admit that it is a bit worrying what we are going to do if the situation does not improve in our area, our current lease is for 18 months, if we lose this we may have to downsize even further, who knows.

[RJS1977]

 

• Councillors - especially in urban areas - are often these days professional or semi-professional politicians, who obey "Rule 1" of politics (as opposed to railway modelling!) which is, of course, "Get elected; then get re-elected".  There are very few votes in being seen to support a model railway club; sadly it is not - in most peoples' eyes - a 'valued community asset'.
• In the latter context, most MRCs are "low profile" for 51 weeks and 5 days of the year, only really registering in public consciousness for the one weekend they hold their Annual Show.  In such straitened financial times as we have these days, it is therefore perhaps a legitimate question to ask whether it is fair and justifiable to, in effect, subsidise the hobby of a couple of dozen local residents which puts little back into its community (because frankly there's not a lot it can put back, however willing in principle), and where the 'profile' of participants would probably show a majority of middle-aged and older white males.

It's hard, and I'm sad to say it, but I suspect this is the most likely way the future will look.

 

The exception to the last two points is the model engineering model railway club with a ride-on track as well as indoor layouts. The Reading club for example has high takings on its monthly public running days, and is open on other occasions for birthday parties, other community groups (schools, Scouts, Brownies etc) and charity fundraisers. Consequently we do have a relatively good relationship with the Council (our landlords) and are viewed as an amenity rather than just (mostly) "old men playing trains". That said, there are still a lot of people in Reading who are surprised to find out we exist! 

[RJS1977]

Note the underside of the board in the 2nd photo.  Its the trackbed of Franks old Borchester Town layout I believe.  Frank never wasted anything, he just turned the boards upside down and re-used them.

 

He's not alone in that. Several of 'Buckingham's' baseboards have imprints of other layouts on them including Crispin and Stephen's TT gauge layout which 'disappeared' while they were at University when Peter Denny wanted to extend his layout!

 

Likewise, many of the layouts Stuart Robinson has built for the North Downs Model Railway Circle have imprints of other layouts underneath!

[The Johnster]

Borchester was, and is, a phenomenal layout, and one I have always found inspirational since first reading about it in MRC in the 60s (I am very old).  It crams a massive amount of railway into a limited space but gets away with looking quite spacious, it's portrayal of a working railway may have been equalled but I contend never bettered, and it's operation has always been spectacular, and still is.  I would regard it as one of the best layouts of all time, and am delighted that it continues to have a life with people who appreciate and care for it and the thinking behind it.

 

What Frank Dyer pulled off was amazing in it's day and pretty much on top of the game now; his capacity to conceive, design, and build such a layout involved superlative skills in modelling, scratchbuilding, electrics, and not least an almost theatrical understanding of perspective, sight lines, lighting, and colour.  Some of us (I am sadly not one of this happy band) can consider ourselves competent in one or two of those fields, but Frank Dyer was a master of all of them.  

 

If you were or are familiar with a real station of comparable size and busyness, especially if you worked in or around it, you would usually be able to fairly accurately determine the time of day by what stock was berthed in what positions; parcels vans in a fish dock, empty carriages in a bay, a loco waiting on a spur and so forth.  Borchester is so realistically operated that this can be done in model form by referring to whichever timetable is in operation and following the sequence of movements.  A magnificent achievement!

[TonyW1960]

If you were or are familiar with a real station of comparable size and busyness, especially if you worked in or around it, you would usually be able to fairly accurately determine the time of day by what stock was berthed in what positions; parcels vans in a fish dock, empty carriages in a bay, a loco waiting on a spur and so forth.  Borchester is so realistically operated that this can be done in model form by referring to whichever timetable is in operation and following the sequence of movements.  A magnificent achievement!

 

To help explain this, we have added the train movement screen so that the time of day is visible to viewers rather than just the operators!

[The Johnster]

To help explain this, we have added the train movement screen so that the time of day is visible to viewers rather than just the operators!

 

Yes, I've seen it and it is a good idea.  As an ex-railwayman I can usually work out the basics of what is going on for myself, but the screen nails it and of course not everyone is an ex-railwayman.

Edited December 24, 2016 by The Johnster

[DLT]

He's not alone in that. Several of 'Buckingham's' baseboards have imprints of other layouts on them including Crispin and Stephen's TT gauge layout which 'disappeared' while they were at University when Peter Denny wanted to extend his layout!

 

 

And much of the TT rail was used to build the overall roof at Buckingham Mk.3

[Chris_z]

Hello,

Just signed up.

I've been out of touch with model railways for so long, I didn't even know Frank had died - sad. I briefly knew him in the early 1980s. Visited his bungalow and shed several times. An overwhelming experience. Admiration for what he achieved, but so daunted at what was involved. I really liked the 'what if' scenario. I hope to come back to that.

I'm wondering whether anyone has any photos of Borchester Market in the 1980s / 1990s.

I'm redrawing the layout plan in colour, but there have been some minor changes. I'd like to produce plans for 1980, later but before Newhaven, and 2017.

Just for information I'm in contact with Newhaven.

Attached is a copy of a board plan he used to hand out to those helping erect the layout at exhibitions.

 

I'm also looking for someone with signalling knowledge to help me interpret how his signalling worked. Not how they were modelled or operated. What sort and purpose as if in real life.

[Chris_z]

Baseboard 1980 redrawn with metric dimensions.