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Should Hornby re-introduce TT ?

TT Arnold 12mm gauge 3mm scale 1/120 scale 1/100 scale Blue Tooth digital




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#51 Joseph_Pestell

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 15:41

Anyone launching New TT would play to its obvious strengths, the main one of which is the ability to put a really nice layout on a reasonable sized board.

 

So the first product would be a basic layout and a well-known complete (probably DCC) train, possibly a small goods train in addition, with a (free!) slot together board in sections with the layout and maybe roads/ fields printed on it for easy laying.

 

Make it extremely pretty. Give it a great name. Big advertising budget. First train-set. Most first-time Dads wouldn't worry about there being nothing further available just yet in the scale. It would be hugely attractive just as a single purchase. Perfect scale for kids, fine enough scale for Dads.

 

Plenty of toy and model manufacturers market single project products. Wouldn't interest Hornby/Bachmann of course but I think it would sell.

 

The secret would be in giving very careful thought to the rail quality, gauge, profile, points, so that if it took off it could quickly become the basis for a super-detail follow-on using the same layout with extensions, sidings, whatever to draw in the modellers.

I'd invest.......

....because the scale is just so right.

Which: 1/100 or 1/120?





#52 Joseph_Pestell

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 16:39

Just for fun, let's start a wishlist.

 

A prudent manufacturer would start with a "go-anywhere" mixed traffic diesel. That would be a Class 31 (interestingly the choice made by Triang when 31s were still quite restricted geographically) or perhaps a 24/25. Surely possible to find existing TT chassis that would be compatible with those.

 

A "go-anywhere" steam locomotive is a bit more difficult unless one goes for a BR Standard. So I suggest a 2MT tank. The alternative would be a Jinty and a 57xx on shared chassis.

 

Goods wagons are a bit easier with standard chassis. So scope for a flat, 3-plank, 7-plank,  a couple of vans and of course a brake.

 

Passenger stock surely has to be BR Mk1 in both 57' and 64' variants. With well-thought design, should be possible to produce a lot of diagrams with quite a restricted range of components.

 

If one did want to go down the train-set route to get initial take up, that selection would enable quite a few different sets to be offered.



#53 Jeff Smith

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 16:59

Joseph - don't forget the track......

#54 sub39h

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 17:04

They should focus on getting their 4mm products sorted first before they go galavanting off into risky and relatively uncharted territory.
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#55 Hroth

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 17:27

Just for fun, let's start a wishlist.

 

A prudent manufacturer would start with a "go-anywhere" mixed traffic diesel. That would be a Class 31 (interestingly the choice made by Triang when 31s were still quite restricted geographically) or perhaps a 24/25. Surely possible to find existing TT chassis that would be compatible with those.

 

A "go-anywhere" steam locomotive is a bit more difficult unless one goes for a BR Standard. So I suggest a 2MT tank. The alternative would be a Jinty and a 57xx on shared chassis.

 

Goods wagons are a bit easier with standard chassis. So scope for a flat, 3-plank, 7-plank,  a couple of vans and of course a brake.

 

Passenger stock surely has to be BR Mk1 in both 57' and 64' variants. With well-thought design, should be possible to produce a lot of diagrams with quite a restricted range of components.

 

If one did want to go down the train-set route to get initial take up, that selection would enable quite a few different sets to be offered.

As its "just for fun", and permitting a small amount of "Triangism", the steam idea for a Jinty/Pannier on the same chassis could be extended with a class 08 body too.

 

A standard B0-B0 mechanism could support a number of Type 2 diesels, the 31 might be something to introduce if sales permitted, as it would require a 3 wheeled* bogie, and would open up a further range of models.

 

When Pacifics become possible, perhaps we could have an unrebuilt Merchant Navy.   Triang managed one, "Clan Line"........

 

 

Edit:

 

* Having seen the comment from my esteemed colleague below, I must admit I probably meant "axel", but the idea of Reliant producing light rail vehicles is too priceless to correct!


Edited by Hroth, 27 January 2015 - 20:34 .


#56 Talltim

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 17:57

Shapeways now does exactly that!

Printing models in HO, N and Z. Not perhaps yet as sophisticated as ours, but the technology is already here.

It's not as simple as that tho, due to things like minimum wall thicknesses and print resolution. You scale down a 4mm model and suddenly the walls are too thin to print, you scale up a 2mm model and the walls are far too thick (probably because they have been scale compromised to be able to print)
Maybe you print something solid in 2mm, scale it up and you want it to be hollow to save material. All these mean a redesign of the CAD. And that's before you start thinking about designing around a different mechanism design for a different scale.
Even the simplest item of rolling stock such as a four wheeled van will need a redesign on scaling, small details on a 4mm version will need removing as they won't print reliably, vice versa details will need adding on a scaled up 2mm one

Edited by Talltim, 27 January 2015 - 17:58 .

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#57 Titan

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 18:10

 the 31 might be something to introduce if sales permitted, as it would require a 3 wheeled bogie

 

Is that the Reliant version for three rail TT?



#58 Hroth

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 20:31

Is that the Reliant version for three rail TT?

Yes, but don't let the Stig drive it....



#59 Forester

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 21:26

Just for fun, let's start a wishlist.

 

A prudent manufacturer would start with a "go-anywhere" mixed traffic diesel.

 

Noooo!

 

Prudence has no place here. This would be a go-for-broke situation. The manufacturer will already have taken a massive risk . It needs something absolutely stunning to make a seismic impact and shift those 20,000 boxes and fitted baseboards. If the first set doesn't sell out very quickly there won't be an "anywhere" to go next.

 

Ideally it should be something no-one has done before. It has to go viral on Facebook and YouTube as well as the model railway press, so it needs to look fantastic.

 

I'd go for an Unrebuilt Merchant Navy with flags and Arrows - no one has done that so far. It could be the 1947 Malachite Channel Packet Golden Arrow but on balance I'd go for a 1951 Golden Arrow set with Port or Clan Line in blue. No-one has done those Pullmans and additionally no-one has done a large scale spam-can in blue. It would be unmissable.

 

Failing that, a proper Silver Jubilee set or a red Coronation set might work - except the overall look is nothing new. The GWR is probably a non-starter as we are shortly going to be awash with Kings and Castles in OO, and there are no really fancy headboards to tart them up. I could go for Cardean in blue on the Scotch Express if it weren't for the number of sets I'd have to sell in the South..

 

No, as a back-up I'd go for something few people have even thought about:

A SE&CR Boat Train with a D Class in the full lining and brass dome livery that got everyone so excited about on the C Class, and some Pullmans in that gorgeous SE&CR Lake. Fabulous!

 

Even it the scale failed to catch on, the future collectors' value of a set like that would be worth the purchase :)

 

OK, back to the real world.......


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#60 Hroth

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 21:49

Noooo!

 

Prudence has no place here. This would be a go-for-broke situation. The manufacturer will already have taken a massive risk . It needs something absolutely stunning to make a seismic impact and shift those 20,000 boxes and fitted baseboards. If the first set doesn't sell out very quickly there won't be an "anywhere" to go next.

 

Ideally it should be something no-one has done before. It has to go viral on Facebook and YouTube as well as the model railway press, so it needs to look fantastic.

 

I'd go for an Unrebuilt Merchant Navy with flags and Arrows - no one has done that so far. It could be the 1947 Malachite Channel Packet Golden Arrow but on balance I'd go for a 1951 Golden Arrow set with Port or Clan Line in blue. No-one has done those Pullmans and additionally no-one has done a large scale spam-can in blue. It would be unmissable.

 

Failing that, a proper Silver Jubilee set or a red Coronation set might work - except the overall look is nothing new. The GWR is probably a non-starter as we are shortly going to be awash with Kings and Castles in OO, and there are no really fancy headboards to tart them up. I could go for Cardean in blue on the Scotch Express if it weren't for the number of sets I'd have to sell in the South..

 

No, as a back-up I'd go for something few people have even thought about:

A SE&CR Boat Train with a D Class in the full lining and brass dome livery that got everyone so excited about on the C Class, and some Pullmans in that gorgeous SE&CR Lake. Fabulous!

 

Even it the scale failed to catch on, the future collectors' value of a set like that would be worth the purchase :)

 

OK, back to the real world.......

Let me put a word in for a 1913 Claughton, with a rake of LNWR plum and cream WCJS coaches for "The Corridor", then we could fit Cardean in too........



#61 melmoth

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 22:16

The GWR is probably a non-starter...

 

I offer you 'The Great Bear' with a rake of 70' coaching stock in pre-1908 livery. If you're going to have a model with limited appeal, go for one with limited route availability as well.


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#62 brianusa

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 23:01

We're in the realm of fantasy here! The question was should Hornby reintro TT, not what they should make. Great suggestions which might be more appropriate for OO which is established and the most popular scale. TT was tried years ago with limited success, which might be an indicator why it is doubtful if ever it will be reintroduced. Why would any enthusiast with mega bucks tied up with a layout even consider another scale, especially to the extent to make TT viable.

Why haven't they made the Great Bear already, eight wheel tender and all?

Brian.
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#63 aussiebrfan

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 00:11

Simply put Noooooooooo!!!
Hornby should concentrate on getting what they announced in OO to market in a timely fashion and in sufficient quantities.
G.
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#64 Joseph_Pestell

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 09:14

Joseph - don't forget the track......

 

Don't need track. I am suggesting that "new TT" would be to European standard 1/120 on 12mm track so there is already track available.



#65 Joseph_Pestell

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 09:30

We're in the realm of fantasy here! The question was should Hornby reintro TT, not what they should make. Great suggestions which might be more appropriate for OO which is established and the most popular scale. TT was tried years ago with limited success, which might be an indicator why it is doubtful if ever it will be reintroduced. Why would any enthusiast with mega bucks tied up with a layout even consider another scale, especially to the extent to make TT viable.

Why haven't they made the Great Bear already, eight wheel tender and all?

Brian.

 

As I said, Brian, wishlist was only for fun. I know they wind up a few people on here.

 

Back up the thread, someone said that the need for TT had largely been superseded now that we have good models in N. I think that could be true although many of us find N a bit too small.

 

The time for TT to be reintroduced was probably about 10 years ago when most UK N gauge models did not run that well. I have never had much dealings with Triang TT but if it ran as poorly as their OO models of the time, I am not that surprised it did not take off. About the time that Triang stopped doing TT, they took on Hornby-Dublo (much better running but twice the price) which may have been another factor.

 

The fact remains that TT (1:120) gives you about 2.5 times as much layout as does OO (1:76) in a given area. Not as good as the 4 times you get from N but still very useful in an era when house sizes seem to be getting ever smaller.



#66 Oakydoke

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 09:30

If the question as in the OP had been "Should Hornby introduce H0", I'm sure the same people advocating TT would be saying completely the opposite and opposing the idea.

Market not big enough
Market doesn't exist and would have to be created
Far too risky
Should concentrate on their 00
Tried before and wasn't successful enough
People won't change. Too much personal investment in 00 or N
If they diversify, it'll be into N. A proven growing market
They'll cannibalise their own 00 sales
Etc, etc.....

Edited by Oakydoke, 28 January 2015 - 09:35 .

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#67 Forester

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 10:42

If the question as in the OP had been "Should Hornby introduce H0", I'm sure the same people advocating TT would be saying completely the opposite and opposing the idea.

Market not big enough
Market doesn't exist and would have to be created
Far too risky
Should concentrate on their 00
Tried before and wasn't successful enough
People won't change. Too much personal investment in 00 or N
If they diversify, it'll be into N. A proven growing market
They'll cannibalise their own 00 sales
Etc, etc.....

 

Market size still to be tested

Convenience of scale creates the market

Risk balanced against the reward of having a new market all to yourself, defining the gauge, rail/wheel profile, power and control systems

Not currently particularly successful managing their 00 products against arguably superior competition.

Never properly marketed

Not dependent on 00/N modellers changing. New Dads&Kids market wanting more convenient scale.

N not the success hoped-for due to too small scale

Currently happily destroying their own 00 sales ..........


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#68 Vistisen

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 10:53

If they were to start a 'new' range, (which would be probably be the thing that finished them off) I'd rather that they chose HO, Just imagine no more narrow gauge top heavy trains, suddenly the sleeper spacing would be closer to correct, all those wonderful Preiser people would stop looking 'vertically challenged', trains fit platforms, The beginner would not even worry about mixing and matching. It would be much less of a commercial risk



#69 Dunsignalling

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 10:56

We're in the realm of fantasy here!

Why haven't they made the Great Bear already, eight wheel tender and all?

Brian.

In reply to your first point - and how!

 

In reply to your last point, I'd reckon the top reason would be the difficulty in making the beast negotiate second radius curves!

 

The second would be the amount of stick they would get for not producing Dreadnought and Concertina coaches to go with it. :jester:   

 

John


Edited by Dunsignalling, 28 January 2015 - 11:00 .


#70 Dunsignalling

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:05

Market size still to be tested

 

Convenience of scale creates the market

Risk balanced against the reward of having a new market all to yourself, defining the gauge, rail/wheel profile, power and control systems

Not currently particularly successful managing their 00 products against arguably superior competition.

Never properly marketed

Not dependent on 00/N modellers changing. New Dads&Kids market wanting more convenient scale.

 

N not the success hoped-for due to too small scale

 

Currently happily destroying their own 00 sales ..........

Market size yet to be detected is closer to the mark! Who's the other one? :sungum:

 

Not that I'm an N Gauge modeller, but N is massively more successful than Tri-ang TT3 or even proper Continental TT ever was.

 

John


Edited by Dunsignalling, 28 January 2015 - 11:11 .


#71 lapford34102

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:11

Given their overall situation I'd be very interested in why Hornby even contemplated reviving TT. Ignoring the fragmenting their own market side of things where is Arnold made, is it the same factory as Hornby. Rather far fetched I know but if TT were to reappear I'd be more inclined toward someone like Tillig considering having a punt. A class 68 on one of their existing chassis, a couple of euro wagons and instant starter like akin to what they already do.
http://www.ehattons....e/prodlist.aspx
 

Edit
 

but N is massively more successful than Tri-ang TT3 or even proper Continental TT ever was


Think was is the key word there, we've moved on a bit.....


Stu


Edited by lapford34102, 28 January 2015 - 11:14 .


#72 Hroth

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:18

To summarise.

 

Chance of British outline rtr TT (from any manufacturer): Nil.

Chance of British outline rtr HO (from any manufacturer): As near to nil as makes no difference.

 

If anyone wants to model in TT, then there's always the option of rtr Continental outline, or DIY British outline, and DIY is real modelling!


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#73 Dunsignalling

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:24

Think was is the key word there, we've moved on a bit.....


Stu

The real problem is that nobody has yet produced any evidence to suggest that demand for a new range of r-t-r British TT products would be any greater than for the last lot.

 

John



#74 PaulRhB

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:26

I think one of the biggest drawbacks to adding another mainstream scale is getting places to stock it to entice new starters. You aren't going to see huge advertising campaigns and it would confuse a lot of general public who think of Hornby 'as OO'.
In Germany TT had survived albeit on a low level in East Germany as an alternative to HO so there was already a significant amount out there and as wealth has increased in the former East so they wanted more of the same, not a wholesale change in scale ;)
TT is a great scale but I just can't see the numbers being big enough to start out with a range for Hornby as it's too close to OO and they have up on Lyddle End which was servicing an established market, Bachmann N scenecraft have taken over so there was money to be made still A better bet in reality would be Heljan, DJM or Dapol commissions from someone or kickstarter etc.

#75 Forester

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:57

The real problem is that nobody has yet produced any evidence to suggest that demand for a new range of r-t-r British TT products would be any greater than for the last lot.

 

John

 

Business is about creating demand.

 

There is a gap in the market between N and HO/OO. Can it be exploited?

There are disadvantages to the existing scales .A "new" scale would have advantages. Is there a new market holding back because of the disadvantages of the existing scales? Could the market for a "new" scale be tested with a single ready-built ready-to-go set-on-a-board?

 

 

How could the financial risk be reduced? Can lessons be learned from the Live Steam experiment?

The "failure" of Live Steam did not seriously harm the company which produced it and did not noticeably affect 00 sales.

Why should a trial around-TT scale project do so?


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