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Converting commuter railways to busways




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#1 Purley Oaks

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 13:27

Spotted this piece of nonsense from the Institute of Economic Affairs a couple of days ago about converting commuter railways to busways...

http://www.iea.org.u...ers-40-in-fares

 

They reckon that each incoming track carries 10,000 passengers, and that it would take 150 coaches each carrying 75 passengers to do the business instead. How many incoming lines are there? The IEA think that every commuter would get a seat and that it would be much cheaper.

 

I reckon that's about one coach every 20 seconds on each line; am trying to imagine the diesel pollution in London on a hot summer's day. Nice.

 

How long until 1 April?

 

Mal


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#2 TheWeatheringMan

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 13:39

Spotted this piece of nonsense from the Institute of Economic Affairs a couple of days ago about converting commuter railways to busways...
http://www.iea.org.u...ers-40-in-fares
 
They reckon that each incoming track carries 10,000 passengers, and that it would take 150 coaches each carrying 75 passengers to do the business instead. How many incoming lines are there? The IEA think that every commuter would get a seat and that it would be much cheaper.
 
I reckon that's about one coach every 20 seconds on each line; am trying to imagine the diesel pollution in London on a hot summer's day. Nice.
 
How long until 1 April?
 
Mal


Hi,
I was under the impression that our railways had already been 'converted' to busways with the regretable involvement of stagecoach, go-ahead, arriva and first etc.
Certainly our once proud railways are no longer run like a railway since busmen got involved.

Regards
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#3 chrisf

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 13:55

Chestnuts!  Get your old chestnuts here ...

 

Chris


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#4 The Stationmaster

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 13:59

An idea seemingly typical of those without an ounce of practicality in their bodies.  For instance a Govt report of user levels at London termini shows c.170,000 people arriving in the morning peak and going forward by UndergrounD alone yet the same survey shows that 40% of arrivals use the UndergrounD with almost as many, 36%, going forward on foot  (might be over the whole day as opposed to just the peak, but I think not).

 

Thus the dumbos have started with the wrong number of journeys.  Secondly have they honestly considered that many commuters would be happy to spend up to 2 hours, or more, each way on 'a luxury coach', especially when some of them already have that alternative to rail travel?  And where. exactly, would these 'buses - because in reality that is what they will be - run on their 'guided busway' when many of the routes handling rail commuters are also carrying long distance rail travellers' leisure travellers, business  people, and freight trains?

 

They appear to have come from the land of pre-drawn conclusions and attempted to (inaccurately) scrape together some facts to match their hare-brained ideas.  Looks to me like several villages are without their idiots


Chestnuts!  Get your old chestnuts here ...

 

Chris

But they are old and hoary ...


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#5 pete_mcfarlane

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 14:23

The success of the Bus Rapid Transit schemes in Latin America and Asia...
If they'd told me that there were successful schemes in Germany or Sweden or some other rich Northern European country with conditions similar to the UK then maybe it might be a good idea. But their examples are all from the second and third World, who are using buses because they can't afford to build railway lines. 

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#6 jonny777

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 14:25

Sadly, though, there are politicians who think only of getting extra votes; who will jump on the bandwagon of nonsense such as this and put it forward as a well thought out plan.


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#7 Austrag

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 14:30

At St Ives Cambs, the railway was removed by Mr Beeching many years ago. The later/ former transport minister/ boxer/ idiot, wasted millions on a new busway to get commuters into Cambridge. It was many years late, had no end of problems and the Council refused to sanction it's use and sued the contactors. Only then was it opened.

 

I can't use it myself because it is too far away from here and I would need to start using the first bus of the day with another change of bus just to get on the busway. It is easier to drive to the park and ride near to the City from here.

 

Before Beeching I could walk to the Station and make one change and be at the centre of Cambridge in no time.

 

That it is progress.......


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#8 chris p bacon

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 14:35

At St Ives Cambs, the railway was removed by Mr Beeching many years ago. The later/ former transport minister/ boxer/ idiot, wasted millions on a new busway to get commuters into Cambridge. It was many years late, had no end of problems and the Council refused to sanction it's use and sued the contactors. Only then was it opened.

Add to that scheme the Luton & Dunstable guided busway.

 

It's only getting something like 40-45% of projected figures and apparently it's the fault of the financial crash of 2008........some 4 years before they started building the busway.......go figure...

 

Another 100+million down the drain.


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#9 Corbs

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 14:45

Add Bristol to that illustrious list soon!



#10 Fat Controller

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 15:14

I noted in this month's railway press that Caen, in Normandy, are kicking their guided busway into touch, it having been an abject failure...


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#11 Fat Controller

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 15:20

And whilst we're looking for candidates for Barking, how about this one...

http://www.bbc.co.uk...london-31298695

I especially liked the way they mentioned 'underused' Tube tunnels; are the cyclists meant to sneak in between the trains?



#12 Glorious NSE

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 15:30

I reckon that's about one coach every 20 seconds on each line; am trying to imagine the diesel pollution in London on a hot summer's day. Nice.

Simple, just convert them to electric buses.

And then to save crew costs, join lots of them together.

Oh, wait...


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#13 Suzie

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 15:57

I am surprised they did not take the coach solution to its logical conclusion with smaller coaches, perhaps with four or five seats each, and to save manpower one of the passengers could drive...


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#14 Mike Storey

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 15:57

This (almost identical) idea popped up in Thatcher's days, following a report from Reading University (1976 Hall and Smith "Better Use of Rail Ways") and I recall it gained considerable political and media mileage over the route into Marylebone, and this was in the days of far lower usage. It was shot down in flames only after a considerable campaign demonstrating the immense impracticalities and sheer hogwash regarding costs. 

 

It was the highlight of a campaign run by a Brigadier Angus Dalgleish, who formed the "Railway Conversion League" in the 1950's until his death in 1994. This league had strong links with the IEA (who published this latest, already highly discredited "let the market decide" bit of spittle), which was formed in the 1970's once Thatcher became Tory leader and was driven hard by her monetarist advisors. Their complete inability to comprehend the need to develop homogeneous policy and strategy in a modern, highly inter-dependent society, stems much from US influence. Brig Dalgleish had been one of a large number who long resisted the nationalisation of Britain;s railways, alongside for example, the founding fathers of the Talyllyn preservation group, but with very different agenda!

 

It can also now be pointed out that, in the figures we have seen anyway, London's commuter TOCs now receive no direct subsidy, although there is NR grant still needed of course. I note that the figures they use (£6 billion per year) include capital investment. No professional project proposal would ever combine operational costs with renewal.enhancement costs in the way they have scurrilously done, certainly not without saying so, and in the form of whole life costs, which they fail even to acknowledge. You can pick holes all over it, but the free market advocates never rest, despite all that has recently happened to the world.


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#15 Christopher125

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 16:10

Paul Withrington has been peddling this nonsense for many, many years unfortunately - there's a great article on London Reconnections about the proposals to convert the line into Marylebone which even had Paul engaging in a discussion in the comments, alas he appears to have ignored everything that was pointed out to him.

Almost Terminal: Marylebone’s Brush With Destruction
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#16 pete_mcfarlane

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 16:13

And whilst we're looking for candidates for Barking, how about this one...

http://www.bbc.co.uk...london-31298695

I especially liked the way they mentioned 'underused' Tube tunnels; are the cyclists meant to sneak in between the trains?

That actually makes some limited sense, as they are talking about reusing disused tube tunnels. Not that there are many of those under London - the Aldwych branch, Kingsway tram subway and the old Widened line branch to Moorgate are the only ones I can think of (I suspect the Post Office railway tunnels are too small).  Conversion of one of those to a cycle tunnel might make an expensive novelty.

 

Just watch out for the cannibals that inhabit the disused tube tunnels


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#17 Joseph_Pestell

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 16:22

That actually makes some limited sense, as they are talking about reusing disused tube tunnels. Not that there are many of those under London - the Aldwych branch, Kingsway tram subway and the old Widened line branch to Moorgate are the only ones I can think of (I suspect the Post Office railway tunnels are too small).  Conversion of one of those to a cycle tunnel might make an expensive novelty.

 

Just watch out for the cannibals that inhabit the disused tube tunnels

 

I would hope LUL give some serious thought about the potential of the Widened Lines remains to enhance capacity.  Having a couple of dynamic loops here could greatly help to get the service back on track when the H&C/Circle falls apart.


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#18 talisman56

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 16:40

Spotted this piece of nonsense from the Institute of Economic Affairs a couple of days ago about converting commuter railways to busways...

http://www.iea.org.u...ers-40-in-fares

 

They reckon that each incoming track carries 10,000 passengers, and that it would take 150 coaches each carrying 75 passengers to do the business instead. How many incoming lines are there? The IEA think that every commuter would get a seat and that it would be much cheaper.

 

I reckon that's about one coach every 20 seconds on each line; am trying to imagine the diesel pollution in London on a hot summer's day. Nice.

 

How long until 1 April?

 

Mal

 

Did they think how and where all these coaches would be stored while waiting for the outgoing rush hour? And which coach manufacturer(s) would be getting the windfall order to produce all the coaches needed?


Edited by talisman56, 09 February 2015 - 16:45 .

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#19 Glorious NSE

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 16:46

That actually makes some limited sense, as they are talking about reusing disused tube tunnels. Not that there are many of those under London - the Aldwych branch, Kingsway tram subway and the old Widened line branch to Moorgate are the only ones I can think of (I suspect the Post Office railway tunnels are too small).  Conversion of one of those to a cycle tunnel might make an expensive novelty.

 

Just watch out for the cannibals that inhabit the disused tube tunnels

Plus the stub of the Jubilee to Charing Cross is mentioned, I think there's a few bits of former Northern line dotted about as well.

I think there's some issues, for example it's a bunch of odd scraps, not any kind of network, some of those bits are already in other uses providing a useful function and so on, plus, are cyclists really going to want to descend to deep tube level (how will that work? bikes on escalators sounds like a bad idea, lifts would be slow, ramps, especially uphill, sounds like hard work!) and come back up again? 

Converting something like the Kingsway tram tunnel sounds like a cool idea though...


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#20 TheSignalEngineer

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 16:53

Add to that scheme the Luton & Dunstable guided busway.

 

It's only getting something like 40-45% of projected figures and apparently it's the fault of the financial crash of 2008........some 4 years before they started building the busway.......go figure...

 

Another 100+million down the drain.

Birmingham had a short section of guided busway in Erdington. It ran along the central reservation where the old tram tracks used to be. This was hailed as the first of its kind in Britain when it opened in 1984. It only lasted until 1987 partly because following bus deregulation a different company using conventional buses put in a lower bid for the subsidised journeys.


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#21 pete_mcfarlane

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 16:54

...ramps, especially uphill, sounds like hard work!....

 

How about installing drag lifts? Just don't let go and run backwards down the ramp........


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#22 corneliuslundie

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 17:05

Aren't there supposed to be some quite long tunnels in south London which were built just before or during World War 2 and used as munitions factories? They were never linked up and made into a Tube line, if I remember. Or was that just a fairytale?



#23 TheSignalEngineer

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 17:07

Aren't there supposed to be some quite long tunnels in south London which were built just before or during World War 2 and used as munitions factories? They were never linked up and made into a Tube line, if I remember. Or was that just a fairytale?

They're being used to store the Strategic Reserve


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#24 pete_mcfarlane

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 17:12

Aren't there supposed to be some quite long tunnels in south London which were built just before or during World War 2 and used as munitions factories? They were never linked up and made into a Tube line, if I remember. Or was that just a fairytale?

I thought that was an uncompleted section of the Central line in North East London, which was finished after the war. 


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#25 'CHARD

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 17:31

Birmingham had a short section of guided busway in Erdington. It ran along the central reservation where the old tram tracks used to be. This was hailed as the first of its kind in Britain when it opened in 1984. It only lasted until 1987 partly because following bus deregulation a different company using conventional buses put in a lower bid for the subsidised journeys.


Aye, part of the old BCT 65 route to Perry Common. It was branded as 'Tracline 65' (what utter drivel) and used a fleet of slightly modified (at build) Metrobuses. It was never clear precisely what was gained by taking the responsibility for turning the steering wheel, but only that responsibility, away from the driver, for approximately one eighth of a four mile route.
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