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2-4-0s, and the Armstrong era in particular


JimC

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When I wrote the first book I was rather guilty of somewhat glossing over the 2-4-0s in the Armstrong and Dean eras. There were so many of them, they were rebuilt so much and I just found them confusing and, dare I say it, not that interesting. I'm paying for it now! Working up my experimental chronologically based GWR locomotive history I'm in into the late 1860s, early 1870s, and they are becoming impossible to avoid! I have to wonder, incidentally, why, with standard goods engines and standard tank engines in numbers there were so many different ones.

The old Gooch era 149s built by Englands and the Joseph Armstrong's 111 class from Wolverhampton were adequately documented, but then...

Next was the 439 class. Intriguing beats, because they were an early Joseph Armstrong product at Swindon, and looked almost exactly like broad gauge engines. When they were rebuilt/renewed later just about everything was changed, so there are no clues there. So what do we have? Russell has nothing. No drawings at GWS or NRM. Ahrons in British steam has nothing I can see. RCTS has one rather unclear photograph and a bare minimum of dimensions. There was a thread here some years ago, but even @MikeOxon doesn't seem to  have found much other than a slightly better version of the same photograph. So I wondered about Ahrons original article in "The Locomotive". You may be aware that Ahrons wrote a whole series of articles on early GWR locomotives for the Locomotive, typically illustrated with his simple line drawings, which have been widely reproduced, notably in Holcroft's books and his own "British Steam Locomotive", and which I have made wide use of for my drawings. I discovered, to my surprise and delight, that the RCTS archives are at Leatherhead station, just a few miles from where I live, and they have a complete run of"The Locomotive". So I joined up and yesterday spent a useful but very chilly couple of hours perusing the bound issues. And yes, Ahrons does cover the 439s in the magazine issue. But the article was written a few years after the previous one, and he is eschewing his line drawings for photographs, which for the 1870s are presumably increasingly available. And I turned to it and:

IMG_20231107_134120shrink.JPG.9903be54c55e2c5a13d0bed5c54f8079.JPG


Yes, its the same photograph, although the reproduction is better so it's a lot clearer. It's a nice profile at least, I could do a hell of a lot worse.

Now this morning I've come to the 481s, which were the next batch at Swindon. Very much the same dimensions, but visually quite unlike. And another I happily glossed over in the book. And what do I find in RCTS? A similarly tiny profile photo. In Russell - only the renewals, again rather different, and in Holcroft little enough too. So, slightly discouraged, I'm writing this blog post to let off steam! Really I don't think there's much of a way round it, I need to produce something. Perhaps I should make them plain line outlines and much more diagramattic than my usual ones to make it plain they are, well, rather sketchy sketches!
 

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A very civilized way to let off steam!

 

I like the 2-4-0s, hoping for elegance but restrained by awkwardness.  It would be interesting, I think, to see a selection of the classes alongside in each other in plain outline as you say, so as to illustrate the diversity in appearances. And then perhaps one or two selected "case studies" with a more detailed drawing. But easy for me to say, of course.

 

Edited by Mikkel
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591 looks the same as 482 !!!  (Edit: Although its tender is a longer one.)

 

591-small.jpg.ac9458a9ce35e455ff215b190ae18702.jpg

 

Edited by Miss Prism
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Yes indeed, those are the Swindon renewals of 1887-9, and nice useful photos they are too. But the wheelbase was quite different so there aren't too many cues. Trivia: 17 481s went into the Swindon factory to be renewed, and 18 rebuilt 481s came out. The other 3 481s went into Wolverhampton, one came out with new frames of a different design, one was relatively little changed, and one came out as a renewed 439, which was a rather larger locomotive than the 481!

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Quote

image.png.93b1659e4f6813234bf26e2b64c2e09b.png

 

Somewhat similar to the 717 class (I have a couple more photos of that class, if you're interested).

 

GWR717class.jpg.b23591dca8f7121f46b980b14b0f363d.jpg

 

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I'm always struck by how much variation there was in Armstrong tenders. (Lengths, wheelbases, frame styles, tanks, body heights.)

 

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Yes indeed, but consider how many tenders arrived with absorbed lines, and whilst the locomotives might have been problematic, one supposes tenders are easier to get right. Also I suspect that once you've got standard wheel sets, brakes and axle boxes on there was probably less value in standardising the rest. 

More photos are definitely a good thing, keep it up please. I can't see us getting buried in 19thC 2-4-0 photos!

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Reckon this is about as good as I can do on the Bicycle for now without going mad(der). Been a bit of a struggle this one.  Think I'm going to give myself a break before tackling the next.

240-439-1868.JPG.1b1fb1286282ff29d026d13bbaa490a2.JPG

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106, apparently ex-Birkenhead Railway. Date unknown. I don't know the original loco builder - the body as updated here is mostly Wolverhampton, but the frame front end is a dead ringer for a Metro tank. The tender is strange, springs mounted low, Swindon-looking toolboxes, but it doesn't have a footplate. Looks more LNWR than GWR to me. (The Birkenhead Railway had feet in both camps.) 

 

106-ex-Birkenhead-Railway-crop.jpg.04c8b1f9bb027faa419e3e39c58f6638.jpg

 

 

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Fairbairn originally, according to RCTS, but that must be post 1889, by which time it had not only had near enough everything changed above footplate but most of what was below too! 

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After a little diversion into working out an as built Armstrong Goods, I've now got to the 481 class. I'll be glad when I get nearer the end of the 19thC and there are a few more images available. The "As built" 481 seems to be another with one half reasonable photograph in RCTS. I've just bought the electronic version of the RCTS books, and I don't reckon I can scan their images any better than they have, so I can use those and save a bit of time. Need to make another trip to Leatherhead and see if there's anything better in "The Locomotive". Also figure out a way of getting the pages flatter when photographing without any risk to the books. I guess I can experiment here on any old book!

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Jim, would you say that the digital RCTS volumes reproduce the photos better than the printed books? If so I may consider purchasing some, even though I have the books.

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1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Jim, would you say that the digital RCTS volumes reproduce the photos better than the printed books? If so I may consider purchasing some, even though I have the books.

Not really, they are facsimiles of the originals - in other words they've scanned good copies of the books. They haven't gone back to the original photographs. The pdfs are searchable though which is quite handy. 

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On 09/11/2023 at 10:27, Mikkel said:

Somewhat similar to the 717 class (I have a couple more photos of that class, if you're interested).

And now I've got to the 717s, and hey ho, what is there?
That's a super clear profile photo, and will be a big help getting the frames because it doesn't seem as if they were much altered, but without the big Giffard injector on the side of the firebox, a polished dome, enclosed splashers and a cab that has got to be a good few years on. There's another 717 photo in RCTS, which must be a bit earlier as it has the Giffard injector, but its still cab and polished dome. It has both splashers open and a narrow cab, but RCTS is suggesting that originally they had a large side panel covering the trailing wheel splasher and only the leading one was open.  
I don't think I'm going to do much better with the 806 series either. There's a slightly earlier photo of one in RCTS, but we are now getting past the days of completely open locomotives, and I'm not clear whether the vestigial sides to the weatherboard as per photo D68 in RCTS and the photo of 442 above were from new or added just a bit later with these classes. At the moment its feeling as if each successive class is more hassle to sketch, and gosh I'm glad that I skipped over them in the previous book. 
Trouble is I don't think I can skip here in this format, its a significant era.

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A couple of 717s, apparently a bit larger than the 481s.

 

The tender behind 717 has a very low body - compare with the one behind 720. Rear 3/4 views are very rare, and I wonder whether the 720 picture is by Peter Darke, whose book has other rear 3/4 views. He took a lot of pictures at Taplow, but I can't correlate that to the picture here.

 

717.jpg.06ed7c2008b6b9e7af253b33ce831c73.jpg

 

 

720-small.jpg.dc58363d079dc600490a023b16a092c4.jpg

 

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A couple of 806s (two pics of 824, the later one having an extended smokebox). I'm not too sure what the difference between the 806s and 717s are (must dig out my Jim Russell book!), and earlier 806s seem to have radically different outside frames (or were these rebuilt 439s? or was there another renumbering stage?)  (see Mikkel's pic of 718 above)

 

The first (Teignmouth) view is c 1902.

 

823-teignmouth-c1902.jpg.65cba2f312a68aa4aa4a39c1992c66bc.jpg

 

824-1-small.jpg.8bf0c096df62ac58cc445fc487e81463.jpg

 

824-small.jpg.8bcd66bde88db5c14dca477acfae743d.jpg

 

 

Edited by Miss Prism
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725 at Wolverhampton Low Level, 11 June 1910. I wouldn't fancy trying to apply lining behind those springs.

 

725-wolv-ll-11jun1910-small.jpg.9f948e738d795db9c0ee40582d1c7a8a.jpg

 

 

Edited by Miss Prism
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Yes AIUI the straight footplate on the 824 photo above was a Swindon rebuild. I seem to have given myself a project and a half to sort all these 2-4-0 variations out.

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Here's a bit of fun, and probably some procrastination as well. This is the current contents of my 2-4-0 sketches directory. There are a good few more to come I reckon, which is rather intimidating. The main takeaway, of course is how all GWR locomotives look the same... 
I think at the moment I like the appearance of the 111 early best.

240-collection.jpg.852b414b59d09052cb98263b6feb7810.jpg

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An interesting comparison. Belpaire fireboxes didn't exactly help the visual balance on these types.

 

Here's no. 722. The others I have have already been posted by Miss P.

 

s-l1600(17)6.jpg.d199a7b040ef971fa7c99670c9b06c72.jpg

 

Edited by Mikkel
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I was about to make a comment that I didn't think any of the 3232s ever carried tapered chimneys, but then I noticed Martin Finney had made one (3250, in 1926 condition) with such a chimney.

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Stella 3503, probably not long after being converted to narrow gauge.  Not sure when the side clacks gave way to backfeed. The smokebox front plate still has flared sides.

 

3503-small.jpg.6959d880d98ecca4724f36c1a587f245.jpg

 

 

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