SP Steve

I have a number of the destination labels to Brighton and I can't recall them displaying a Harbour stop - the one below was for Class 159s in the days of services from the West Country. Here's one more appropriate to the route in question featuring some of the smaller stops - it's identified on the rear as being for the 20:25 ex CDF and would date from c1988 (no prizes for spotting that Mottisfont Dunbridge has been listed as Mottisfont then Dunbridge stops!).

The following flickr album by David Quayle contains quite a few images of both steam and diesel operating around the Cumbrian coast (including quite a few at Workington depot): https://www.flickr.com/photos/16236990@N08/albums/72157608177268125/page1 One I was quite taken with features 8F 48113 operating a flask train through Seascale in July 1965 https://www.flickr.com/photos/16236990@N08/2954422145/in/album-72157608177268125/

Here's as far as I got with mine before quietly putting it to one side... As John mentioned earlier the kit was done under the "Acorn Models" brand by Jim someone or another (unfortunately not McGeown of Connoisseur Kits) who I think was a member of Burton-on-Trent club who were doing a 7mm model of the same. The artwork now resides with Trevor Cousens over at Mercian (he may even have done it in the first place) and until recently the 4mm kit was still to be had but now is only available from him in 7mm scale (Kit SW26). One of the main issues I recall having with the kit was rolling the roof into the triple arc configuration, not helped by the etched lines inside (supposedly as an aid) becoming visible on the exterior. I also did a little bit of work to the chassis as I think it comes plated over in areas where it should be open. I have another four to go at so may eventually get good at building them.....

If it's LNER unfitted that you are trying for then I think that you'll need to rethink the project. The LNER examples (from which the BR standards evolved) AFAIK were classed as "Express" Goods Brake vans to Diagrams 61 & 158 and were vacuum braked. LNER unfitted types were done to Diagrams 33, 34 & 64 and were a different style altogether, not having the end platforms outside of the verandah area.

Hope you don't mind Tony but I did a little manipulation of your image to see if the 'hole' effect could be lessened. Adding more foliage to the trees on either side of the formation helps to lessen the effect along with moving the water crane to the right so that it hides the left hand edge of the hole when viewed from the angle you've taken the image.

Hi Phil, if you have a local florists near by then try and tap them up for some ribbon. The good thing about it is that the ribbons are already quite stiff so cutting out a shape to represent the curtains being held back by ties and then attaching with double sided tape above and below the glazing should be fairly simple.

Unfortunately all of my references depict vehicles post 1955 so am not aware of the protocols before then. With regards to the glazing I will be using 0.5mm acrylic sheet held in place with Testors Clear Parts Cement & Window Maker adhesive. The acrylic is easy(?!) to score and snap into correct sized panes whilst the adhesive is water based and does not fog / yellow. However before this point is reached I will need to replicate the other side, remake the ends to accommodate the increased height of the sides and then assemble everything together (in other words some time off yet!).

With reference to DMUs, here's an excerpt from the York 1960 General Appendix: INSTRUCTIONS FOR WORKING MULTIPLE-UNIT MECHANICAL DIESEL TRAINS HEAD AND TAIL LIGHTS AND DESTINATION INDICATORS 6. The destination indicator, where provided, must be operated so as to show the correct destination both at the front and rear of the train. The train classification/route indicator or headlamps, as the case may be, must be set to show the class of train and/or route at the front end only, the rear indicator showing blank. The destination and classification route indicators must be illuminated after sunset or during fog or falling snow only. The driver is responsible for ensuring, at any turning around point, that the train classification/route indicator is suitably blanked out and the light extinguished before he proceeds to the other end of the train. Where a train classification or route indicator is not provided the following instructions apply:- During daylight and clear weather, the destination indicator must be regarded as the head-code. After sunset, during fog or falling snow, or when passing through tunnels, the top electric headlamp must be switched on by the driver. The lower headlamps will not be used. These arrangements to apply whether the train conveys passengers or is empty. An oil tail lamp must be carried on the rearmost vehicle and a spare oil tail lamp, properly trimmed, must be carried in the Guard's brake to enable the provision of Rule 204 to be complied with.

I think that in common with a lot of other details concerning these vehicles, there were variants. Images of E70232E & E70240E (1929 Stratford) along with E70241E (1929 York) show the three separate rain covers, one per window whereas E70212 / E70213 & E70217E (1928 Stratford) all appear to have had a single long rain cover. Whether those with the single cover had originally been fitted with three I'm not sure but I'm intending this to be E70217E, so single strip it is.

Sorry for taking up room on your thread Tony but as it's LNER then I hope I'm excused! Having earlier posted re: making up the height deficiency for a Chivers D120 brake van, here's the side after having the window details re-instated. I've made an attempt to depict one or two of the pivoted top lights being open - I think these were only found on the D120 versions, the later types having fixed non-opening windows instead.

The search for Class 13 Master + Slave replacements hits new levels of absurdity! Class 08 No. 08643 is hauled through Bristol Temple Meads by a solitary HST power car 43162 in July 1984 (I presumed it was a working from St Philips Marsh depot with a view to the power car being turned, hence the 08 being manned and under power).

I've made a start on trying to correct the height anomaly - I don't have a drawing for the 120s but by checking on pictures the ratio of the distances between the various horizontal components I've determined that the main difference between prototype and kit is the top light band. I'd thought they looked a little narrow so felt adding a 1mm square section and recreating them would be the easiest route (I've measured the various kit components to rail height and they come in at 40.7mm so assuming the rain strip - rail height is 5' 6" or 42mm then I'm only 0.3mm down). Another thing the kit has wrong is that the vertical pillars between the three opening top lights are the same width as the lower panel beading - they aren't so that was another reason to take this route. Of course now the ends will need to be corrected but hey ho, it keeps me off the streets.

The parts are not yet fixed into position so hence position of dynamo (the white metal one supplied in the kit looks over large so I've done my own). I've measured the body side and ends which give a width 33.5mm or 8' 4 1/2" in prototype land - I'm guessing the 9' width quoted would be the total width across hand rails / foot boards? I'm aware taking details from preserved examples is not without it's dangers but in this case I'm happy to go along with them. I did look into using the kit as a basis for a D170 vehicle but not being an aficionado of Holden coach under frames (as the per the reclaimed kinds used on this diagram) I elected to keep it as the D120 type.

I'm in the process of throwing one of these together and to my eyes one of the biggest differences between kit and prototype is that the sole bars are too far recessed in from the bottom edge of the body sides. Studying the various pictures I have and on line images of the preserved example shows that the top web of the sole bar is virtually even with body paneling whilst on the kit it is recessed quite a way back. On my take I've remedied this by overlaying U shaped plastic channels on top of the kit sole bars but of course this does away with the rivet details which then need to be re-instated afterwards. There should also be a slight gap between the sole bar web and body sides as the prototypes seem to sit on packing pieces inserted between the two.

After a bit of a sort out I have two Class 25 bodies for disposal - one Bachmann (cannibalised for other projects) and one Hornby (intact). ITEMS NOW TAKEN

From the same title as above: "In 1903, a new afternoon express for Sheffield appeared in the G.C.R. timetable. The starting time was fixed at 3.25 p.m., and with the help of the water troughs at Charwelton and Killamarsh, the train was booked to make the run of 164.7 mile non-stop in 3 hours 8 minutes. By 1904 this was cut to 2 hours 57 minutes and in 1905 to the fast time of 2 hours 50 minutes. This was the fastest schedule ever in force between Marylebone and Sheffield, and equalled the best bookings introduced at any time over the competing Midland and Great Northern routs. The train became known as the "Sheffield Special," though this name did not appear in the timetables or official literature. There was an up non-stop also at 8.50 a.m. from Sheffield to Marylebone. At first a formation of three coaches, headed by a Robinson 4-4-0 locomotive, sufficed to carry the traffic. Later, when the Robinson Atlantics had come into use, the normal formation was four bogies, with an additional non-corridor coach which was slipped at Leicester, and worked from there through to Grimsby and Cleethorpes. In the course of time, the allowance to Sheffield was eased to 2 hours 57 minutes, at which it remained up to the First World War, and the Marylebone departure was altered to 3.15 p.m. The main train continued from Sheffield to Manchester, slipping at Penistone a portion for Bradford, which consisted of a composite slip brake and a through coach from Bournemouth which had been brought to Sheffield immediately ahead on the Bournemouth - Newcastle through train. The only other stop was at Guide Bridge, after which the "Sheffield Special" was worked round the southern outskirts of Manchester into Central station, where it was due at 7.25 p.m. in time to connect with the 7.30 p.m. to Liverpool. During the First World War, the "Sheffield Special" continued to run, complete with its restaurant car, and at speeds little inferior to those during peacetime but with stops at Leicester and Penistone replacing the slip portions and with an additional stop at Nottingham. Sheffield was reached at 6.37 p.m. and Manchester at 8 p.m. After the war this arrangement continued and the express, still without any official name, settled down to a departure from Marylebone at 3.20 p.m.. The 103.1 miles to Leicester were run in 109 minutes; in the compass of this run came the 6 mile climb at 1 in 105 from Rickmansworth up to Amersham, a gruelling task for the engine. But the hardest task of all was reserved for the conclusion, in the tremendous pull from Sheffield up to the eastern portal of Woodhead tunnel. In the middle of the ascent came a stop at Penistone, where a through coach for Bradford was detached. For many years the working of this express was entrusted to the highly efficient "Director" class 4-4-0's of Robinson's design, and it was on such workings they were seen at their best. It has been calculated that on this journey of 212 miles a locomotive requires to lift its train through and aggregate difference in level of no less than 2,900ft before Manchester is reached. In L.N.E.R years standard coaching stock appeared on the train, and its normal formation was seven coaches, including the through L.M.S.R composite brake at the rear.The rest of the train from the engine backwards was usually third class brake, third corridor, third restaurant car, first class restaurant and kitchen car, composite and third brake; this made tare weight of 243 tons and a gross weight of about 260 tons. By now "B17" or "Sandringham" 3-cylinder 4-6-0's had replaced the "Directors". No up working ever ranked with the down train as the "Sheffield Special"; the nearest approach was probably the 2.15 p.m. from Manchester London Road, making the same stops from Guide Bridge, and due in Marylebone at 6.38p.m. Both trains were withdrawn on the outbreak of war in 1939, when almost the entire express service over the Great Central main line disappeared in a single day".

According to Cecil J Allen in his "Titled Trains Of Great Britain" dated 1947; "Meantime the L.M.S.R, in March 1925, had put on a train which shortly after was to receive the title of the "Yorkshireman". It was an entirely new service between Bradford and St. Pancras, not serving Leeds but using the route via Thornhill which had been made available when, in 1909, the former Midland Railway opened the connecting spur from Royston, on its mainline to Leeds, to Thornhill, on the then L&Y main line from Wakefield to Manchester. The original intention was to build a railway through Bradford which would enable Anglo-Scottish services to pass through that city, but it was never carried into effect. A new route was made possible , however, between St. Pancras, Sheffield and Bradford Exchange, and of this the 9.10 a.m. from Bradford to St. Pancras, and the 4.55 p.m. from St. Pancras to Bradford, duly made use. A feature of the new service was that for the first time the L.M.S.R made up a train composed entirely of open vestibuled stock - third brake, third, first, kitchen car, two thirds and brake third, seven vehicles in all. Later first and third class brakes with compartments replaced the previous two end vehicles. The time allowed in each direction was 3 hours 10 minutes between St. Pancras and Sheffield with an intermediate stop at Leicester, and 4 1/4 hours between London and Bradford. No further changes of note were made until the radical acceleration of Midland services which took place in October 1937. Once again Sheffield was provided with a non-stop service to and from London, and the down "Yorkshireman" was one of the two trains selected for the experiment. The old G.C. and G.N. times were nearly reproduced with an allowance of 2 hours 52 minutes for the run; the starting time was altered to 5.10 p.m. from St. Pancras, and Sheffield was reached at 8.2 p.m.. Bradford was reached at 9.11 p.m., in a minute over 4 hours from London. Once again, however, it did not last. By 1939, the down "Yorkshireman" was back to its old departure time, leaving St. Pancras at 4.55 p.m., taking 106 minutes to a stop at Leicester, 3 hours 5 minutes to Sheffield, and as much as 4 hours 20 minutes to Bradford. In the up direction it was leaving Bradford at 9.5 a.m. and Sheffield at 10.13 a.m., making an additional call at Chesterfield and running from there to London by way of Nottingham, with a mile-a-minute run in 123 minutes over the final 123.5 miles to St. Pancras, reached at 1.21 p.m. Despite a journey of 205.5 miles as compared with 198.8 miles in the down direction and an extra stop, the up train therefore had the advantage of the down by 4 minutes. The formation of about seven bogies remained unchanged, but Class "5XP" 4-6-0's had replaced the Midland compounds with which the "Yorkshireman" began its career. The train was withdrawn on the outbreak of war."

One possible way of deciphering details from images lies with zooniverse: https://www.zooniverse.org/about I found it by chance at the start of the lockdown as there was a project asking for volunteers to transpose old UK rainfall data into actual digital details that could be used in modern day applications - as I recall the project would have taken years but was done and dusted by June. I seem to recall that each image was processed three times by individual volunteers to help eliminate incorrect entries. Not saying it would be the answer but maybe worth considering.

Original request was for details of the internal bracing which I think is the same for both Catfish / Dogfish wagons.

The following SAGA services / formations were in operation in 1979: 1V87 MO 08:23 Edinburgh - Torquay BSK-SK-SK-SK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1S84 MO 12:02 Torquay - Edinburgh BSK-SK-SK-SK-SK-CK-CK-SK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1V84 MO 07:21 Newcastle - Torquay NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 MO 13:35 Torquay - Newcastle TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-NAV 1O43 TO 07:21 Newcastle - Margate NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 TO 09:55 Margate - Newcastle NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1O21 WO 07:21 Newcastle - Portsmouth Harbour NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 WO 11:15 Portsmouth Harbour - Newcastle TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-NAV 1O21 ThO 13:45 Birmingham New St - Bournemouth BSK-SK-SK-SK-SK-CK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1M00 ThO 11:08 Bournemouth - Birmingham New St BSK-SK-SK-SK-CK-SK-SK-SK-SK-BSK 1V84 ThO 07:21 Newcastle - Newquay NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 ThO 09:20 Newquay - Newcastle TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-NAV 1O43 SO 07:21 Newcastle - Folkestone NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-RU-BSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO 1E12 SO 10:02 Folkestone - Newcastle NAV-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-BSO-RU-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO Additionally SAGA ran a couple of WR themed services but I don't have the relevant stock details to hand: 1B04 MO 14:48 London Paddington - Torquay 1A53 MO 09:45 Torquay - London Paddington 1B60 ThO 11:34 London Paddington - Newquay 1A69 ThO 08:35 Newquay - London Paddington

These were the labels used to signify SAGA specials.

Hi Eric, here's an image kindly provided by a fellow RMwebber when I had a similar quandary. It depicts the inside of a Dogfish rather than your specified Catfish requirement but I believe they were the same in this department (should add I've secured his permission to post the image).

The racking plate can be seen on the image posted by Porcy Mane on the wagon closest to the train engine - it's a metal plate that fixes to the headstock and sole bars and can just be made out to the left of the front and rear tank retaining bolsters (which are shorter in length than the two central saddles). I believe the purpose of them was to keep the headstock and sole bars at 90 degrees to each other and the term 'racking' simply means something going out of true. The drawings I've seen for steel chassis equipped vehicles all seem to have them until those for 1927 at which point the frame was altered giving added strength to the build. RCH specifications for 1907 show a ten hole rack plate modified in 1911 to four hole (not sure if the holes were for weight reduction, component access or to avoid pooling of product).

One of mine looked like that for a little while before the carnage set in!

Not so sure it was a later modification - all steel framed RCH drawings that I've seen up until 1927 have a racking plate. The number of holes varied but they all seem to have one with only wooden framed vehicles and the later 1927 variants (with a revised layout for the frame members) not being so equipped. I'm not saying there were none to the same layout as the Oxford item but generally I would have thought there would be more vehicles in service with than without.