London Festival of Railway Modelling - Ally Pally - 27/28th March

[Revolution Mike]

I've noticed this worrying trend, after another recent show a similar comment was made that there only one British N gauge layout present, which completely ignored the fact there were two 2mm ones plus all of the other British layouts in the more popular scales. Are punters getting so insular that they won't even consider looking at other gauges within their own modelling scale, which seems odd when in many cases it isn't readily apparent what the gauge actually is...!!

 

Not at all - many modellers dabble in both 2mm FS and N (myself included), but regardless of whether you include them together or not there was still a shockingly low number of 2mm/N layouts (2 British and 1 Continental) for what is in effect one of the three major model shows (Warley and Glasgow being the others).

 

It is precisely because the different scales offer different pros/cons that balance is needed in shows eg a 7mm layout can very rarely display the trains in landscape aspect that N can and similarly an N piece of stock is going to struggle to be as equisitely detailed as some 7mm models. That is not a criticism of either scale just recognition of different strengths.

 

None of that is being insular.

[RedgateModels]

Shameless plug here, but at next month's Mansfield show we have two N gauge layouts and a dedicated N Gauge trader who will be bringing a demo layout too. We would have had Ian Morton's excellent Hatton Parkway too but due to it's foamboard contruction does not travel well.

[Ravenser]

Adding some photos of the show:

 

New Sherwood (Gauge O springdrive)

 

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Hardwick Grange (I think the stock is Frank Dyer's)

 

.JPG]

 

.JPG]

Wibdenshaw

 

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Lyoncrosse

 

.JPG]

[andyrush]

. Like any good modelling of any genre part of the real skill is looking and learning. For example Pempoul is a French narrow gauge prototype, very few of us would have a serious interest in modelling it, yet I imagine most of us can learn a good deal about colour, scratchbuilding, scenery, from it. The same can be applied to any layout of any scale/gauge or era, if its done well.

 

Hear, hear. but the operative words are 'good modelling'. In my opinion, life is too short to waste time on the other kind, of which there is a depressingly large amount to be seen at most exhibitions.

 

It only requires one element of the total presentation of an exhibition model railway to be wrong and I lose interest, no matter how good the other elements are. For instance, committee meetings or social gatherings of 'operators' when they are supposed to be entertaing the paying public, frequent loudmouthed 'playing to the gallery' by operators, the treating of electrical faults or frequent operating errors as jokes. Again, these are all seen much too often.

 

I don't think this can be regarded as insular, intolerant maybe, but so be it.....

 

Regards

 

Andy

[bmthtrains - David]

Sounds like it was an enjoyable show for those who attended, which I am glad to hear. As far as the N gauge debate goes, its not about only wanting to see N gauge (there is a specific show for that) - its about having a spread of gauges and scales to show the public what is possible.

 

There are an equally poor number of OO or O gauge layouts at shows as N and having seen a lot of photos from AP this weekend, there are definately several that wouldn't pass my own standards of acceptable show quality.

 

What concerns me is that this historical stigma seems to be following N gauge - if exhibition managers are rejecting 'sub-standard' N gauge layouts, they still seem to be letting in poor OO ones. While this is all obviously an individual view on what constitutes 'good' (there is no objective way of rating a layout), it does seem that for an N gauge layout to be considered 'good', it has to have much higher standards than a comparable OO one.

 

I am not sure why this is, and every exhibition organiser is free to choose whichever layouts they feel will be of interest to their audience, but to say there aren't enough good ones out there is not a reason I believe, given the number of sub-standard OO ones that seem to make the cut. Outright quality doesnt seem to be the answer, but perhaps 'perceived' quality is? Is the public's view of 'good' willing to let pass something in OO because the rolling stock is larger and perhaps still interesting if the layout is a bit ropey, while an N one doesnt have that ability to distract from the poorer parts as with a classic trains-in-the-landscape model, if the landscape is poorly made, there's not much else to look at!

 

David

[edcayton]

Well, I thought it was a good show, but not a great one, probably because there wasn't one particular layout that really grabbed my attention that I hadn't seen before.

I had always been on the Sunday before, but went on Saturday this year to see/hear Barry Norman (and to prove to myself that he was not the other Barry Norman!), and because of the Australian GP on the Sunday. I shan't do this again, as the Sunday is less crowded and therefore more pleasant.

 

I am a little concerned by what appears to be some censorship on here. It seems to me that if you set yourself up as an exhibitor at a public event then you must expect criticism and take it on the chin. I would hope that on a forum such as this (where you should be "among friends")that such criticism would be polite and constructive.

 

HOWEVER, in a previous life I was involved in the running of folk clubs and have seen too many closed down because of well-meaning but awful resident and floor singers. All the organisers, including me, were too polite to say anything; and I see something of a parallel here. Remember, the public are paying their hard-earned cash and spending their precious spare time at these events, and deserve the best that they can be given.

 

Ed

[Pacific231G]

Possibly an entirely new thread there! For what its worth I don't think they're getting insular, from my experience possibly the majority always have been. On here and other fora and discussions over the years its not been difficult to find comment along the lines of 'there was no XYZ, so there was nothing of interest for me'. Like any good modelling of any genre part of the real skill is looking and learning. For example Pempoul is a French narrow gauge prototype, very few of us would have a serious interest in modelling it, yet I imagine most of us can learn a good deal about colour, scratchbuilding, scenery, from it.

 

I couldn't agree more at least as far as modellers being insular now. I'm not so sure about always have been.

 

Although I was fairly occupied between staffing the SNCF Society stand and helping out with Buccabury I did get enough time across the two days to look around and there were several layouts that I found well worth lingering over and they were very different.

 

Although I am very interested in French NG, for some reason the Reseau Breton has always left me cold yet Pempoul was definitely the star of the show for me and I think would have been even if it had been based on the County Donegal. In complete contrast was Borchester Market and even though the scenery and buildings were of their time and I have no interest in the UK Midlands I was still impressed by the impression it gives of a busy main line station (perhaps a model railway more than a railway model) Wantage was 3mm scale which I don't use but was still just as relevant as a piece of modelling. I can't even remember what scale the Somerset coalmine was built to but again it didn't really matter.

 

I've recently been going through some early MRNs and it's interesting to read the write ups of the MRC Easter shows- the ancestors of Ally Pally- from before the war. It was, apart from Maybank, obviously far more an exhibition of railway models (mainly rolling stock of course) than the one or two working model railways but there was normally a display of models brought over by the French association AFAC and Belgian modellers often seem to have had their own display as well. Though people had far less opportunity to travel abroad there does seem to have been less insularity generally. MRN regularly ran reports on exhibitions in Paris and elsewhere in Europe and there seems to have been more of an interest in railways everywhere.

 

Since Britain effectively gave model railways as well as railways to the world it seems a shame that you hear as one of us did at Ally Pally a few years ago the remark "Oh don't bother to go over there, that's just foreign stuff" and this year one visitor passing the stand asked me why on earth we would be interested in French railways.

 

David

[Glorious NSE]

Sounds like it was an enjoyable show for those who attended, which I am glad to hear. As far as the N gauge debate goes, its not about only wanting to see N gauge (there is a specific show for that) - its about having a spread of gauges and scales to show the public what is possible.

 

Playing devils advocate here, but then surely given there was something like Copenhagen Fields and Highbury Colliery there that is fulfilled, both of those were impressive examples of what N/2mm is capable of in their own very different ways?

 

Is the public's view of 'good' willing to let pass something in OO because the rolling stock is larger and perhaps still interesting if the layout is a bit ropey, while an N one doesnt have that ability to distract from the poorer parts as with a classic trains-in-the-landscape model

 

I keep telling myself I must not try and guess what "the public" wants, it's a pointless task to an extent. We did Tolworth last November and the layout that won the popular vote was one that i'd not even have considered, the scenery was neat and tidy, but hardly mind-blowingly good. There was no semblance of the real thing in operation and watching it being operated from above there was no real way it could be, being basically two trainset ovals with a couple of FY loops on one side, a station with through roads on the other side, the through road was also in use for train stabling!) even to the extent of trains doing multiple laps before being swapped for another which in my "ops" mind is absolute heresy! - I think the plus side for the public was probably that it did have a train rolling past every few seconds...in the context of that vote "what the public wants" isn't actually related to what I as a modeller want in any real way!

 

Where am I going with this....erm...

 

The "learning point" I took away that weeend is that there needs to be room at a show for layouts of vastly different standards, approaches and outlooks on the hobby, by my internal standards that layout at Tolworth barely rated a second glance, yet the numbers say that to lots of people at the show that was the best thing there! I'm kinda glad i'm not a show organiser trying to second guess these kinds of things!

 

 

All that said, i'm not sure I saw much there that I didn't think should have been at the show, although looking at the pics posted in the thread brings home to me just how much of the show I didn't get to see, I love Happisburgh for instance but never got round to standing in front of it!

 

So, what did I see & like especially?

 

 

• Wibdenshaw, stock and setting alike work so well to create atmosphere, nice.
• The Hull guys' "Stealth Bomber" - i'd say I "don't do" narrow gauge, but the interesting presentation and different viewpoint on that one plus some great scenic modelling made it impossible not to stop & look
• Putnam - the new HO layout from the MRC is starting to come along, that was only a small section but they are setting a high standard, gorgeous warehouse on the back as well!
• Mostyn - working well and some gorgeous stock, I can't help thinking that viewing-wise they may have scored an own goal by extending the main line though as it increases the gaps between trains substantially...that balance between busyness and prototypicallity again??

 

From our own group I think we came away relatively positive - some of the post-Tolworth tweaks we'd done had improved the reliability quite a lot and we had no loco failures which had plagued us at Tolworth. On Saturday temperatures in the West Hall were incredible, and in the middle of the day we had the Lenz boosters continually tripping their thermal cutouts for an hour or two before we managed to solve the issue by reducing the amount of power on duty, Sunday was much cooler and with a slightly lighter load the problem was solved, so working out how we solve that is now on the "to do" list.

 

I think the combination of Saturday's heat and losing an hour's sleep didn't help with staff accuracy on the Sunday, I was popping Ibuprofen like Skittles as I was gradually coming down with a cold over the weekend - however we got through the day and eventually I got back to Exeter in the van at around midnight after fighting our way through the West London traffic!

 

Overall we reckon it went well for us though, lots of nice comments and no un-nice ones, folk seemed to cope with the modules concept okay which was a concern (with one bit of the layout effectively being quite lightly used) - some nice visiting power from our "ringers" as well.

 

Thanks to Mick, Mike, Gareth and Keith our "ringers" for the weekend, some very quick learners there, I think some of them were better than our regular crew!

 

"Oh don't bother to go over there, that's just foreign stuff"

 

LOL - one to take on the chin, we've had that for years. The one that really makes us roll our eyes is "that's just an Australian layout"....not just xenophobic but moronic too. Bless.

[Burkitt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_1jtbeIOik

 

Here's my video of some of the layouts at Ally Pally on Sunday.

I was impressed by the number of really spectacular layouts this year - Wibdenshaw, Happisburgh, Mostyn, Crumley and Little Wickhill, Copenhagen Fields, Rushen Valley and connected layouts - which would each be the stars of a smaller show, and made it even more of a must-see event than normal. On the other hand, the balance seemed a little skewed towards the huge layouts, with fewer high quality, interesting small and medium models than in previous years. I also got the impression that whoever chose the modern image layouts thinks it's still about 1985, with most being blue and grey and Auchinraith the most recent, though those exhibited were all to a very high standard.

 

Paul

[Andy C]

There are an equally poor number of OO or O gauge layouts at shows as N and having seen a lot of photos from AP this weekend, there are definately several that wouldn't pass my own standards of acceptable show quality.

 

What concerns me is that this historical stigma seems to be following N gauge - if exhibition managers are rejecting 'sub-standard' N gauge layouts, they still seem to be letting in poor OO ones. While this is all obviously an individual view on what constitutes 'good' (there is no objective way of rating a layout), it does seem that for an N gauge layout to be considered 'good', it has to have much higher standards than a comparable OO one.

 

 

David

 

One thing we have when judging what we want to invite to Manchester is a set standard - now that applies whatever the gauge, scale or protoype. We try our best to get a spread of layouts across all the scales gauges etc but theres an inevitability someone will say you didnt have enough etc etc etc. its a no win situation.

 

But again i emphasise if a layouts ropey it isnt getting in. Red Deaths list for example i read through and thought yeah got it booked, we have had it already etc etc, and there are two in there that I wouldnt invite because quite frankly every time Ive seen them they run like a pig or they might look nice but Ive stood waiting 3 weeks for something to happen. The same applies with a good number of OO/ EM / P4 and 7mm layouts Ive seen as well. The thing is there are not as many N gauge layouts as 4mm layouts and you do have to bear that ratio in mind - that figure reflects the interests of the viewing public and as an exhibition manager it would be wrong to ignore it.

[Galtee More]

One thing we have when judging what we want to invite to Manchester is a set standard - now that applies whatever the gauge, scale or protoype. We try our best to get a spread of layouts across all the scales gauges etc but theres an inevitability someone will say you didnt have enough etc etc etc. its a no win situation.

 

But again i emphasise if a layouts ropey it isnt getting in. Red Deaths list for example i read through and thought yeah got it booked, we have had it already etc etc, and there are two in there that I wouldnt invite because quite frankly every time Ive seen them they run like a pig or they might look nice but Ive stood waiting 3 weeks for something to happen. The same applies with a good number of OO/ EM / P4 and 7mm layouts Ive seen as well. The thing is there are not as many N gauge layouts as 4mm layouts and you do have to bear that ratio in mind - that figure reflects the interests of the viewing public and as an exhibition manager it would be wrong to ignore it.

 

Hear, hear, Andy ! Very well said and not before time either.

[grahame]

I've noticed this worrying trend, after another recent show a similar comment was made that there only one British N gauge layout present, which completely ignored the fact there were two 2mm ones plus all of the other British layouts in the more popular scales. Are punters getting so insular that they won't even consider looking at other gauges within their own modelling scale,

 

Not at all. But it's like being force fed a diet of only coarse scale Hornby doublo three rail OO layouts when you're an EM enthusiasts or vicky verky - sometimes it's nice to see what scale/gauge you actually model in, if just for a reference as to give a clue as where you are with your modelling efforts. I'm sure that model railways is a broad enough church to encompass N gauge as much as 2mm finescale - after all there are some pretty good, fine and decent enough running N gauge layouts, just as much as there are some pretty dull and poor 2mm ones. The old 'there's not enough decent N gauge layouts' excuse is pretty hackneyed now and I'm sorry that some exhibition managers may need to go the extra mile to find something suitable.

 

Anyway, off the cuff I'd suggest the following as more than acceptable quality N gauge layouts (compared to many other scale offerings at some exhibitions); Totnes, Basingstoke, St Denys, Scarworth Junction, Law Junction, Ashburton, Bridgford, Bishop Wearburn and Shaweport. Sure, some have already attended Ally Pally but presumably previous attendance is not an issue as Copenhagen Fields has been twice on the trot

 

However, I do accept that the problem with lists of quality N gauge layouts is that it's very subjective as to what is deemed quality enough to be included and in order to increase the length of the list the quality threshold barrier tends to get lowered. But none of that negates the fact that there was a pretty poor showing of N gauge at Ally Pally. After all as already mentioned; not having a British outline layout in a major UK scale (which is now probably the second most popular) does rather seem to undermine any aspirations to being a major show - it certainly doesn't represent the whole hobby.

 

G.

[Mod6]

I am a little concerned by what appears to be some censorship on here. It seems to me that if you set yourself up as an exhibitor at a public event then you must expect criticism and take it on the chin. I would hope that on a forum such as this (where you should be "among friends")that such criticism would be polite and constructive.

 

Your last sentence is very relevant of course.

 

There is no 'censorship' of well-presented constructive criticism. However, it is considered poor form here for layouts to be criticised by fellow operators at a show, which happened on another show topic recently, or by members of the same club. The place for the latter is within the club concerned and not here.

[Trevellan]

Having had more time to reflect on my experience and having admired the excellent pictures in this thread I am glad I made the effort to go along, despite TfL's best endeavours to deter me. It was fantastic to see Crumley and Little Wickhill "in the flesh" after admiring it in RM. Even my nephew - not surprisingly an all-action roundy-roundy fan - was impressed by the scale and detail of this layout. I love the "stealth bomber" moniker too! Mostyn was enjoyable for its scale length trains at scale speeds and there were several other layouts (which I won't list) that caught our eye. Maybe if I do go next year I should try the Sunday, especially if it's quieter and cooler.

[Ravenser]

Sure, some have already attended Ally Pally but presumably previous attendance is not an issue as Copenhagen Fields has been twice on the trot

 

But Copenhagen Fields is an MRC layout, they organise the layouts at Ally Pally and it was their club centenary. The rules are a bit different for "home club" layouts, which that one would be.

[RedgateModels]

The rules are a bit different for "home club" layouts, which that one would be.

 

 

True. Summat Colliery will make it two years on the trot at the Mansfield Show, but then I do book the layouts I will be stepping aside for next year, but I do know of another committee member who is building a layout ......

 

 

[Geoff Endacott]

Adding to the discussion about 2mm scale / N gauge layouts at exhibitions, Trainwest also includes layouts of a "set standard". Next week we will have Colditz Stadt, Hedges Hill Cutting, Highbury Colliery, Millfields, Schloss Wolfental and Wansbeck Road. That's six out of a total of 27. Next year we already have Basingstoke and Ring Road booked. I also have several other candidates on my list.

 

Geoff Endacott

Exhibition Manager, Trainwest

www.trainwest.org.uk

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Since I was prevented from going, very grateful to those who posted pictures from the show. Next year, hopefully...

The old 'there's not enough decent N gauge layouts' excuse is pretty hackneyed now and I'm sorry that some exhibition managers may need to go the extra mile to find something suitable.

Wrong perspective entirely. Never tell the customer what they should be doing. Present them with an irresistible choice and you will get the result you want.

[Bomag]

A good layout - with both trains running and a decent quality of modelling – will normally be of interest to the majority of visitors whatever their own preferences (and also meets the general public’s preference to see ‘trains’). However, as mentioned by others, there seems to be too many layouts where the design or operation is lacking. Quite often modellers of that gauge or company/era think these layouts are great. They can spend ages looking at stationary bit of rolling stock or a building thinking how good they are while everybody else is thinking why a prototypical Sunday morning timetable is being run.

 

 

 

I sometimes take my mother to exhibitions (she train spotted in the 30’s and drove engines on industrial lines in the late 40’s!) and she does not stint in finding the exhibition manager if she is disappointed – particularly with layouts with good potential but badly operated. She came to the conclusion that the best mix of layout is approx 30% steam based continuously run, 30% MI continuously run (with perhaps a leeway of 10% for good European layouts) and 30% smaller layouts (end to ends or those which are model landscapes than model railways). Unfortunately most of the last few exhibitions have been more like 10% – 10% – 80%; one particularly bad one we agreed to spend a minimum or 5 min at each layout but if nothing was running we would move on – we completed half the exhibition before seeing a train move.

 

 

[298]

Since I was prevented from going, very grateful to those who posted pictures from the show. Next year, hopefully...

Wrong perspective entirely. Never tell the customer what they should be doing. Present them with an irresistible choice and you will get the result you want.

 

Agreed, but the Mk1 customer is a bit of a breed apart these days. I recently did a show with my American layout, and was reliably informed by a disgruntled punter that there was "alot of HO" present. That comment seemed a little odd, and upon further investigation found only one other layout, plus a bit a Lionel display if you care to include that too. There were actually more layouts at the toy end of the hobby, including a certain blue engine, and yet someone gained the impression they had somehow been cheated and may as well have been at an NMRA show.

[298]

Not at all. But it's like being force fed a diet of only coarse scale Hornby doublo three rail OO layouts when you're an EM enthusiasts or vicky verky - sometimes it's nice to see what scale/gauge you actually model in, if just for a reference as to give a clue as where you are with your modelling efforts. I'm sure that model railways is a broad enough church to encompass N gauge as much as 2mm finescale - after all there are some pretty good, fine and decent enough running N gauge layouts, just as much as there are some pretty dull and poor 2mm ones. The old 'there's not enough decent N gauge layouts' excuse is pretty hackneyed now and I'm sorry that some exhibition managers may need to go the extra mile to find something suitable.

 

 

I was thinking more of comparing OO to EM or P4 rather than Hornby Dublo, after all you wouldn't expect to see a Lone Star "OOO" layout being presented as a quality model railway or disguising itself as 2mm (which is another pet hate of mine, N gauge isn't 2mm and the number of times a guide or publicity editor lists an N gauge one as such and got me all excited for nothing.....).

 

I suppose any exhibition manager can enquire about lots of layouts, but if your choice is limited because the owners can't physically accept an invite then this huge rescourse rapidly diminishes. I could complain that Ally Pally has lacked a HO US shortline traction layout for the last few years, but unfortunately I have always ended up having to decline Nick's invites to attend this show.

[nightmail]

It was the Sunday.......and nice bumping into you Jonathan!

 

The K2 looked superb.

 

Also enjoyed looking at your video- despite repeated visits that's the first time I've seen anything move over the tracks at West Mersea!

 

I shall keep trying.......

 

Hopefully I shall see you at the next meeting, with or without my baby daughter- although she is starting to get used to the smell of flux and MDF dust.

 

Warm regards

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

I should hopefully be able to get down with the K2 to demonstrate on the Scale7 society stand, though not sure which day yet.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8fypHlVtYQ&feature=related

 

JB.

[Burkitt]

Here are some more videos made by me of individual layouts:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYfJvydtdas

Wibdenshaw

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJJik8OKhyE

Auchinraith

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxo-KbrNRYM

Crumley and Little Wickhill

[Burkitt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbWPNC1I6FI

Mostyn

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up9RdtjrHrw

Ascott Under Wychwood

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yns-OEzCZy8

Colditz (Stadt)

[Burkitt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUFddZv9nTI

Montague Field

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wqRfwg2r9Q

Highbury Colliery