60526 Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 "The operating standards of some layouts still leaves something to be desired. i was a bit disappointed by the apparent lack of operation on Borchester, sorry chaps, but I used to help Frank run this at home years ago, and remember the layout from the good old days." There must be some stigma attached to exhibiting Borchester, it's a 35 year old layout and we never seem to get away without some derogatory remark. I can't remember the exact words but we were castigated on this forum for not having lights at St.Albans, but we got away with that one this time. We're not sure when Borchester had the "apparent lack of operation", but if it did it very rarely happened. FYI we were operating Frank Dyer's weekday timetable version 5. If you were a past operator then you probably had a lot of training sessions on the layout in Winchmore Hill and it's a bit unfair to just highlight this layout at Ally Pally when on the whole there was a lot of action going on. We're still learning how to operate the layout, most of us hadn't had a chance to get at the controls until last weekend from last November. Overall we were quite happy with her performance, there was certainly a lot of people around the layout at times, so we must have been doing something right. Having the display of Frank Dyer's layout design work around the back of the fiddleyard for Joe Public to see was appreciated by those interested and attracted a lot of attention. We're going to see if we can do this again and perhaps bring along some of the original controllers and transformers that we have. At least some of you took up the offer and came around the back inside the barrier to have a closer look at the fiddleyard. Anyhow, something must have been wrong with the exhibition because I didn't buy anything? I nearly bought some Proxxon tools but that's all that took my attention. But from what I saw as an operator I thought that Ally Pally was quite good. Well done MRC. I'm not into modern image but the stock on Mostyn is something to look out for, but I do like watching Wibdenshaw. Top of the pile for me was Crumley & Little Wickhill from Hull MRC, I've no interest in narrow gauge but it was operated very well and I can't say that I've come across such a scenically superb bit of modelling, by that I mean modelling the valley sides like that. The other layout that seems to have been forgotten was Hardwick Grange. If you didn't take note, there was some real history running there. One or 2 locos were probably around 60 years old, some of the stock probably the same age. From the 1990 MRJ exhibition I should have remembered seeing this layout but I went there to see one of Denny's layout's, so this was the first time that I'd really seen it and although perhaps not as well known as Borchester because of the magazine articles, it is just as significant, if not more, because of the original stock that runs on it. A lot of history in there and most of it scratchbuilt. We have it too easy these days with our RTR models and kits. Regards Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I for one (perhaps only one) do not like this circular debateabout only having quality layouts at shows. The same applies to all scales. I actuually think there is too much snobbery in the expo scene "our show has bigger and better layouts than yours", "we don't invite anything that hasn't already been in the press", "only friendly club layouts who cross invite our layouts" ... I would hazard a guess that the majority of visitors to shows are happy to be entertained by almost anything ... anything that is entertaining, that is. The "standard" of any layout is subjective and is formed by comparison with other layouts, often starting from your own as a base. There are many factors that go to make that one layout better than another - but I like to be given that freedom to make my mind up - certainly not decided for me by some magazine, expo manager or group of "selective" modellers... or at least as far as is possible given that some one/group has to bring it all together. Besides, I think there needs to be more encouragement for the starter or or independent modeller or new exhibitor. I didn't go to AP (it is in the smoke) but as far as I can see the line up was pretty good, and with some notable features. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 For me Ally Pally was well worth the £9 admission, IMHO it is consistently one of the best shows in the calendar. Wibenshaw and Auchinraith were worth the admission alone. However please please please will someone not have the heating on full blast next year - every time I have been the large side room has been sweltering with several operators mentioning this was affecting some aspects of their layout. I was also quite alarmed to see two pigeons flying around the main hall, I hope they didn't leave any weathering effects of their own! Finally I can recommend the bus for anyone fed up of the tube, might be a little slower across town but I didn't have a problem getting a seat and its a great way to see the capital! 139 direct from Waterloo to Kings Cross then FCC to Ally Pally did it for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyrush Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 We're not sure when Borchester had the "apparent lack of operation", but if it did it very rarely happened. FYI we were operating Frank Dyer's weekday timetable version 5. If you were a past operator then you probably had a lot of training sessions on the layout in Winchmore Hill and it's a bit unfair to just highlight this layout at Ally Pally when on the whole there was a lot of action going on. We're still learning how to operate the layout, most of us hadn't had a chance to get at the controls until last weekend from last November. Overall we were quite happy with her performance, there was certainly a lot of people around the layout at times, so we must have been doing something right. The apparent lack of operation of Borchester occurred every time I stood in front of it (on five occasions) on Sunday. Either no operation or defective operation to be precise. Not a single train completed its journey correctly signalled and otherwise unscathed whilst I was watching, and there was certainly nothing resembling the tempo of accurate operation that the layout was designed for. It is no good using lack of training for the operators as an excuse - if you can't train them don't exhibit the layout. The key to putting on a convincing show with a layout as complex as Borchester Town is to know the timetable and the controls by heart, something that Frank Dyer and his team achieved through hard work and much practice. Talking to a well known 'model railway personality' during the show, we agreed that there is something to be said for allowing seminal exhibition layouts to pass on with their creators, no subsequent owners can hope to reproduce the conditions that pertained when the layout was in its heyday. Incidentally, Hardwick Grange wasn't operating very well when I saw it either and it suffered badly from the operator drawbacks that I mentioned in my previous post. The public doesn't want to hear the man behind the layout make all sorts of irrelevant comments, they are there to watch the model railway. The absolutely perfect example of model railway operation at Alexandra Palace was Wibdenshaw. The operators were hardly noticeable, the trains ran faultlessly, the signals worked and the whole thing looked wonderful. In fact it was like Borchester Town used to be, but with better track ! Regards Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60526 Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 A bit spiteful, but hey-ho everyone is entitled to their opinion. We'll take your comments on board, but at this rate I'm beginning to think that the best thing to do is retire it, in fact stop wasting our time. As for Frank's operators known the timetable by heart, that's not true, each one had a copy of the timetable on A6 pieces of paper. And while your being outspoken why don't you name this "model railway personality"? But you won't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod6 Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 It looks to me as if both 60526 and Andyrush are describing the same situation but from different perspectives, since the respective descriptions are not mutually exclusive. Maybe on the one hand the layout wasn't operated in the manner that some members clearly remember it from Frank Dyer's time, but on the other hand allowance could be made for the age of the layout and the relative inexperience of its operators. The subject of criteria for prototypical layout operation vs entertainment of the public is not something confined to Ally Pally or any individual show, and is perhaps a topic for discussion elsewhere. But let's try not to get too confrontational please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonB Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 I did not go to Ally Pally, but have read the comments above with interest. I don't quite get the argument that there should always be something running / activity on the exhibited model. After all if you visit almost any prototype railway site, other than the large stations, there are huge gaps in time where nothing happens, and we wait patiently for the next arrival. Personally, I appreciate the lulls in model running, the crowds thin noticably, and I can get nearer to see how things other than rolling stock were made, and examine the finer points (or even failings!) of the particular layout, and learn a little, perhaps even get the opportunity to ask "how did you do that". There seemed to be conflicting views in the posts above,(I paraphrase!)"quality of layouts not good enough" and "not enough movement so I didn't stay to look".... these seem to me to be (almost) mutually exclusive. There will always be variations in quality / degree of detail at any show, how else would some organisers promote a "Best in Show" layout poll? One last thought, could the critics do better themselves, and, if so, why are they not exhibiting or volunteering to operate? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyrush Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 I'm sorry if my comments are seen as spiteful, I was trying to be honest. If they are taken on board to the extent that the next time I see Borchester things have improved, I will be delighted to acknowledge the fact. In case you think that I'm an 'armchair critic' without first hand knowledge of building and/or operating layouts at exhibitions, I've been participating in this demanding activity since 1961: Longridge, Brampton Sands & Calshot (00) Bishops Hemingway (0) Swaveney (P4) Southwold Light Railway (in several manifestations)(0) Spital (P4) Die Murgtalbahn (H0) I run a large G Scale garden railway with frequent open days/operating sessions and am currently building a 00 BR late steam era layout As you can see from the above list, my taste in model railways is pretty catholic, but all those mentioned were/are layouts that consistently operate well, in my opinion. The strange thing is that I am not normally particularly drawn to the BR Blue Era of Wibdenshaw, whereas I am to the Borchester/Hardwick Grange late 1950's period. At no time have I criticised 'lack of movement' on an exhibition layout, there should be times when the total presentation and detailed scenic work can be appreciated, but I do object to consistent lack of movement when something should be running because of operator error or electrical or mechanical faults. And, no, I'm not going to say who I was talking to at Alexandra Palace ! Non-confrontational regards Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D9502 Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 >from Andy Rush: >The absolutely perfect example of model railway operation at Alexandra Palace was Wibdenshaw. The operators were hardly noticeable, >the trains ran faultlessly, the signals worked and the whole thing looked wonderful. In fact it was like Borchester Town used to be, but >with better track ! Aawww you'll be making Wibble and his team blush Seriously though, cracking show despite the occasional foul-ups so appologies if you were in the middle of a photo/video shoot. The signals do make a tremendous difference, you've Wibble & Paul to thank for that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 I don't quite get the argument that there should always be something running / activity on the exhibited model. After all if you visit almost any prototype railway site, other than the large stations, there are huge gaps in time where nothing happens, and we wait patiently for the next arrival. Personally, I appreciate the lulls in model running, the crowds thin noticably, and I can get nearer to see how things other than rolling stock were made, and examine the finer points (or even failings!) of the particular layout, and learn a little, perhaps even get the opportunity to ask "how did you do that". There seemed to be conflicting views in the posts above,(I paraphrase!)"quality of layouts not good enough" and "not enough movement so I didn't stay to look".... these seem to me to be (almost) mutually exclusive. One last thought, could the critics do better themselves, and, if so, why are they not exhibiting or volunteering to operate? Most people go to exhibitions go to see model railways and expect to see railways running - while there will be a place for model landscapes (which happen to have a railway and the odd train in it) these should not dominate as at some exhibitions. While Grisers may be willing to sit arround in the middle of nowhere to phograph the odd train a significant number of enthusiats (including me) prefer to travel on trains and, apart from the odd failed train, you don't get periods where 'nothing happens'. 'Quality of layout' does not always mean only 'quality of moddeling' - some of the best layout I have seen (and helped operate) were constructed out of retail kits but they had been designed to maximise train movements, be easy to operate as well as being reliable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redkiterail Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Time for my pictures: RS Tower and Freemo modules HO USA: Ascott Under Wychwood EM: Highbury Colliery 2mmFS: Centernary Park Road 00: Cornwallis Field EM: Wantage Tramway: Canons Cross 00: Lyoncross Colliery 0 gauge: Dava 00: Mill Street. Rushen Valley and Coverdale all 0 gauge Stubbswood Quay: Copenhagan Fields 2mmFS: Happisburgh 0 gauge: Cuyahoga: Lionheart Trains 0 gauge: Hohtenn BLS HO: Wipers ww1 1.50:1: Borchester Market 00: Hardwick Grange 00: Pempoul French Narrow Gauge: GP Keen Loco Collection: Montogue Field S7: Colditz Stadt German: Pistyll Graig Ddu: New Sherwood Junction: Larpool and Easington 009: Putnam Yard HO NYC: Ormsgill G gauge: Ellenon Road 0 Gauge LMS: Auchinraith Em: Crumley and Little Wickhill 009 RVT: Buccabury Town 009: Wibdenshaw EM: Beer Creek Junction HO DGRW USA: Limby PGA: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redkiterail Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Sorry for the number and difference in quality hope you like them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 You were busy! There were ones there I didn't even get chance to look at let alone phot. Thanks for taking the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 31, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2010 Thank God I'm not as jaded by overexposure to exhibitions as some seem to be on here! Taken as a day out I thought the total experience was a cracker - some damn good layouts to see with some friendly operators to chat to, a meet up and a pint with some of the friends I've made through this forum, a chance to learn from some of the most knowledgeable people in the hobby etc. etc. I even joined the Scale7 group, which was the last thing I expected to do when I left home on Saturday. As I said an absolutely cracking day out for £8 (advance ticket). I suppose the key is to enjoy what is there and on offer, rather than being disappointed by what's not there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redkiterail Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 You were busy! There were ones there I didn't even get chance to look at let alone phot. Thanks for taking the time. No problem there Martyn good to meet you and RS Tower brilliant layout sorry I did not stay long. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukasz Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Auchinraith looked brilliant. Shame I didn't make it but the scenics on that french layout Pempoul. Well they were so realistic and so French. I could almost feel myself in France. Lukasz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Graham_Muz Posted March 31, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2010 Auchinraith looked brilliant. Lukasz That will be in part due to the embankment scenery then! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukasz Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 If I remember right the old thread for it (where has it gone)and the subtle hint from you. would lead me to believe you had a hand in that? Trackwork was good looking and so was the locos. Lukasz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 And, no, I'm not going to say who I was talking to at Alexandra Palace ! Non-confrontational regards Andy Equally non-confrontationally Andy, and as an impartial observer, I'd observe it might have been better to have just said 'my companion' or similar if you wanted to get across the idea that it was more than just one opinion, rather than a 'model railway personality'. It kinda comes over as name dropping. But without the name Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-missy- Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 Thank God I'm not as jaded by overexposure to exhibitions as some seem to be on here! Taken as a day out I thought the total experience was a cracker - some damn good layouts to see with some friendly operators to chat to, a meet up and a pint with some of the friends I've made through this forum, a chance to learn from some of the most knowledgeable people in the hobby etc. etc. I even joined the Scale7 group, which was the last thing I expected to do when I left home on Saturday. As I said an absolutely cracking day out for £8 (advance ticket). I suppose the key is to enjoy what is there and on offer, rather than being disappointed by what's not there. Hello. I think that is one of the most sensible things anyone has said on this thread so far. Missy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted April 1, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2010 Hello. I think that is one of the most sensible things anyone has said on this thread so far. Missy Here here! Come on chaps, we are talking models here, not the continuation of life as we know it being under threat! 36E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted April 1, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2010 Having spent last weekend operating an O gauge Welsh ( Taff Vale) layout with an unspellable name my observations of the show were: Saturday was very busy - come on Sunday if you want a look around On both days both Halls were very warm - and while we didn't suffer some layouts were afflicted by the heat ( over which the operators have no control) A good mix of layouts but the floor layout was poor with layouts and traders mixed together - can Mr BRM comment on that? People have commented on this at other BRM Exhibitions but the organisers don't seem to understand they could do with improving this. The Hotel we stayed in was OK but we fell foul of the Spurs turfing out on Saturday evening so it took some people and hour and a half to get back to the hotel - it just added to a very long day and finally - How about a ruck sack stop - where everyone with ricksacks can leave them in safety as some wearer seem totally unaware of the trail of destruction they leave behind. A major concern to me is that all the modellers I have grown up with are - like me - getting older and there seem to be less of the younger generation coming to these show... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted April 1, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 1, 2010 A major concern to me is that all the modellers I have grown up with are - like me - getting older and there seem to be less of the younger generation coming to these show... It's funny you mention this - I felt the opposite was true this time, that there were quite a few younger people there both boys and girls, and also a few women too. At other shows I've had the distinct impression that it's a male, middle-aged to retirees only club... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60526 Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 "Equally non-confrontationally Andy, and as an impartial observer, I'd observe it might have been better to have just said 'my companion' or similar if you wanted to get across the idea that it was more than just one opinion, rather than a 'model railway personality'. It kinda comes over as name dropping. But without the name" Ian, you are so right in what you have said. If it's a "companion", then I probably wouldn't know them, but a "model railway personality" the chances are that one of the group might have met him, and so it appears we have, I have no control over private e-mails sent to me and thanks for those who have. Indeed he has been to take photos of the layout, made money out of it as a consequence, and somebody thought that we wouldn't find out. Well I'll have words with him next time we see him and find out exactly what he said, but I won't be buying his book in the meantime. Charlie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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