Unusual trap/catch point

[kevinlms]

I'm pretty certain I remember one being featured in the 'Bazzin' About' series of articles in Model Railway News/Model Railways in the early 1970s; it was an annotated photo of Yeovil Pen Mill, dating from the 1950s.

Looking at the photo in Model Railways 1972 May Page 514/5, there is a double catch point (from 2 parts of the yard), but it doesn't appear to me, to be a wide to gauge version.

 

FWIW, the Southern station is similarly treated in the April issue Page 460/1, which shows a standard catch point.

[The Stationmaster]

They're not catch points, they are trap points protecting a junction and a loop respectively.

They are actually catch points  - unless things have changed the one at Clifton Down are sprung while the one at Narroways Hill Jcn is a motor worked catch point (rather usefully so as it is on a single line).  In effect the Narroways Hill one is a direct equivalent of a slotted spring catch point but as trailable point machines are not used in Britain (and very definitely weren't used when that one was commissioned back in October 1970) it has to be worked as a fully motorised point.

 

 

Gordon,

 

There was one in Brechin station in Caledonian days,  so well back into pre-grouping days in this instance.  Here's a picture from a thread in the Caledonian Railway Association Forum

 

http://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=576&p=3397&hilit=brechin#p3401

 

Jim.

 

This one is very interesting because it works, literally, in three different ways!  First it serves, in effect, as a wide to gauge trap when both switches lie normal - as in the photo.  But it also acts as a Y point, with the two switches worked independently of each other,  to take a move to either the left or the right  (someone took me to task when I posted a pic of a similar one at Sydney Central and called it a wide-to-gauge trap - but that of course is exactly how it works when neither route is set)

[Grovenor]

 

This one is very interesting because it works, literally, in three different ways!  First it serves, in effect, as a wide to gauge trap when both switches lie normal - as in the photo.  But it also acts as a Y point, with the two switches worked independently of each other,  to take a move to either the left or the right  (someone took me to task when I posted a pic of a similar one at Sydney Central and called it a wide-to-gauge trap - but that of course is exactly how it works when neither route is set)

Ok I'll take you to task again, I did try to explain the difference last time!  You rightly explain the operation but not the principal difference. Principally the wide to gauge trap has a through route only when both blades are closed, the switch rails continuing to gauge, with the blades open an axle running through will be jammed against the back of the blades and either stop quickly as a result, or if there is enough momentuum behind it the track or wheelset or both will be badly damaged. The double trap a la Sydney or Brechin has no route with both blades closed and the interlocking will prevent that from happening. With both blades open a wheelset running through will just drop off onto the timbers, and as neither wheel will dig into the ballast there will be very little braking effect or damage until it reaches the diverging rails after the crossing. Both varieties could be described as wide to gauge traps but they are quite different animals.

Regards

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

Ok I'll take you to task again, I did try to explain the difference last time!  You rightly explain the operation but not the principal difference. Principally the wide to gauge trap has a through route only when both blades are closed, the switch rails continuing to gauge, with the blades open an axle running through will be jammed against the back of the blades and either stop quickly as a result, or if there is enough momentuum behind it the track or wheelset or both will be badly damaged. The double trap a la Sydney or Brechin has no route with both blades closed and the interlocking will prevent that from happening. With both blades open a wheelset running through will just drop off onto the timbers, and as neither wheel will dig into the ballast there will be very little braking effect or damage until it reaches the diverging rails after the crossing. Both varieties could be described as wide to gauge traps but they are quite different animals.

Regards

Keith

Quite agree on the difference Keith but of course whatever the arrangement when it comes to stopping errant vehicles it all depends what runs into a trap and how heavy it is/how fast it is going (and possibly how well the brakes work without the normal steel wheel on steel rail type of friction).  An ordinary w-t-g trap will, as you say impose a steel-on-steel friction on the backs of the derailed wheels, until the rails cripple then the wheels are on sleepers/ballast as is the case with most traps, and rails can cripple very rapidly under derailed heavy vehicles judging by examples I've seen.  

 

Overall what matters most is where the errant item is brought to a stand and for most heavier vehicles and locos, which in my experience usually tend to come to a stand within their own length after derailing on a trap and running on sleepers/ballast I doubt there'd be much difference between the two w-t-g arrangements and I suspect the Brechin one might not have been acceptable to HMRI if it was thought it could not achieve that.  But, as I said, it all depends on what derails and at what speed.

[LNERGE]

A wide to gauge point with facing point lock is an interesting beast..

 

 

There were others at Needingworth Junction and Ely Station South. I'd love to find a good close up set of pictures..

[The Stationmaster]

A wide to gauge point with facing point lock is an interesting beast..

 

Murrow West.jpg

 

There were others at Needingworth Junction and Ely Station South. I'd love to find a good close up set of pictures..

Judging by the numbering I presume it works in the same way as the one at Brechin but some how the bolt would have to lock two separate front stretcher bars - that would make a very interesting photo.  Regrettably the one in Australia which I have a pic of is power worked and on a siding so no clues from that about FPLs

[LNERGE]

Judging by the numbering I presume it works in the same way as the one at Brechin but some how the bolt would have to lock two separate front stretcher bars - that would make a very interesting photo.  Regrettably the one in Australia which I have a pic of is power worked and on a siding so no clues from that about FPLs

The ministry requirements for facing points require two fixed stretcher bars plus a third lockable stretcher. Totally impossible with this type of point. I wonder how they got round it?

[Swindon 123]

As this topic is about unusual Trap/spring points I thought these photos, which have already appeared in Dave F's photos thread, may as well appear here as well.

A slotted spring point at Malvern Wells The ground disc is Malvern Wells No 24 lever. I don't have a note as to the lever that worked the point.

It was at Malvern Wells on the down line between the box and the junction for the single line to Colwall. I think it has now been replace, by plain line or a motor worked one I'm not sure. It was there until a couple of years ago.  See photo below.

The only logical move I could figure it was used for was for running round a train, but even then there was no signaled move from the single line, wrong road onto the down in the up direction. I have since found my route notes from when I signed the road and they say that run round moves could be made in the Down Goods loop or alongside it on the Down Main. You could also run round on both the up and Down mains outside the box. Movements from the single line to the Down Main towards No24 signal would be by a Green Flag from the box when stood at Malvern Wells No 3 signal, the Up home at the exit from the single line, the back of which can just be seen alongside the weedkiller train. A maximum of 7 coaches [21SLU] could be run round in this manner With regards to the 20's on the weedkiller in the 2nd shot, that was the only time I ever had to work a train into that particular refuge, and the only train I ever saw in there. Also it was the only time I ever saw the "Shunt Ahead" arm below Malvern Wells section signal cleared, for us to shunt into the refuge.

 

Also keeping on topic of sorts, below is a photo (not the best as I need to find the original again and re-scan it) of a clamp lock motor worked single blade trap/catch point at the exit to the Up Loop at Wooferton on the North & West route.

 

Hopefully The Stationmaster can furnish us with the proper explanation again for "Slotted spring points" as he did on Dave F's thread.

 

Paul J.

 

PS. Found some better photos of Wooferton. See post below.

Also edited to add some more information.

[LNERGE]

This slotted joint was in the Down Avoider at Sleaford South Junction..

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

I'll try not to be exactly repetitive to avoid boring Paul (and others who follow Dave F's delectable thread).

 

The spring slotted point (also called a 'slotted joint') at Malvern Wells is (was? - not sure if it is still there) a slotted catch point - easily traced as such from a quick look at the 'box diagram and gradient chart - and as such was a very typical Western use of such a point being exactly similar in purpose to those on, for example, the Taunton - Minehead branch.  The only logical reason I can see for slotting it is in the event of a Down train needing to use the crossover or to reverse into the loop being too long to stand in rear of the catch point and having to pass over it before setting back, however see my further comments below.  

 

The lack of a ground signal to read towards the Down Line at the Up Home Signal was a typical Western situation on single lines.  The assumption would be that a Down train would be setting back, hence a need to ensure the catch point is closed and shown by a fixed signal to be so but the single to double connection (which obviously lies normal towards the catch point) would be regarded as, in effect, plain line and it would inevitably be set towards the Down Line for any movement which passed the catch point (prior to setting back) - so no need to provide a signal.  Thus when the layout was rationalised in the late1960s no effort was made to provide a ground signal at the relocated Up Home Signal - the Drawing Office simply followed common (G)WR practice.

 

So, to summarise, the point normally works as a sprung single tongue catch point to 'catch' any vehicles running away from a train which became divided on the steep climb up to Colwall and obviously it had to be in the Down line approach to the single line section in order to function in that way.  This fits much more sensibly with the original layout where the double line not only continued some way past this catch point but also included a trailing crossover to the goods yard and Up Line in advance of it.  Thus a Down freight serving the yard would be making setting back moves over the catch point and might also be setting back into the loop to shunt a siding at the far end of it.  And in order to reduce alterations work when the layout was rationalised the previous slotting arrangement wasn't altered.

[Swindon 123]

Found some better photos of the single blade trap/catch points worked by clamp lock motors at the North end of the up loop at Wooferton. All take 3rd Nov 2009. I think I took them in response to a request on the original RM-Web. Sorry it took so long for them to surface whoever asked for them originally.

Here are the photos. A general view of the end of the loop and the associated signals followed by 3 close ups of the point.

 

 

 

 

Paul J.

 

PS. Looking at the photos before posting I've noticed the small 19 plate on the sleeper in front of the point and on the control box. I suspect that is the operating lever number in the box??

[The Stationmaster]

Yes.

[Southernman46]

The spring slotted point (also called a 'slotted joint') at Malvern Wells is (was? - not sure if it is still there) a slotted catch point - .

I think it's been removed (following the derailment of a tamper a couple of years ago ?).

 

ISTR not having to deal with it when moving a RRV from the old coal yard RRAP to the tunnel

[The Stationmaster]

I think it's been removed (following the derailment of a tamper a couple of years ago ?).

 

ISTR not having to deal with it when moving a RRV from the old coal yard RRAP to the tunnel

Hmm, seems tampers have a  habit of doing that.  Many years ago one ruined an extremely pleasant Sunday morning turn for me at Penarth Curve North by passing a signal and danger and running partially off a trap point.

[Swindon 123]

Just out of curiosity, how many trailing trap points are left on the railway now. I know there is one at the bottom of the Lickey as I heard it clunking over under the wheels of the 170 I was on the other day. There was one, until 2010 at least, on the down road between Bayston Hill and Condover on the North & West route. I think it has now been replaced although the Triangle with the letter "S" switch board is still in position. I'm not counting trap points out of loops, sidings and the like, just trailing ones on running lines.

 

Paul J.

Does this count as unusual, replying to ones own post?

Any way on to the reason for this post.

I found the photos I took back in the late summer of 2009 of the trailing catch point on the Up Hereford between Bayston Hill and Condover. As has already been noted it has now gone, although the triangular "S" sign is still standing.

First a long distance look at the CP. This shot shows the original GWR Catch Point sign The old bridge rail posts [far RH edge of photo] still stand and the cast iron sign was still in place for many years as well. The signal, the back of which can be seen in the distance, is the Distant for Sutton Bridge Jcn's Down IBS at the site of Condover station. To the right of the signal and partially hidden by a large bush, can just be seen the "S" sign for the Catch Point, which will be seen in the next photo. This shows the distance that sometimes existed between the GWR catch point sign and the actual catch point.

 

Next shot a lot nearer the CP with the triangular "S" sign in view. The catch point itself is still some way along in the distance and can just be made out in front of the AWS magnet for the Distant signal, being the darker patch between the RH rail where there is no new grey ballast

 

Next a couple of shots taken a bit nearer to the Catch Point.

 

 

Before finally a photo taken right on top of the CP showing some of the associated equipment and fittings that went with it.

It had been "clipped out of use for over 15 years before it was relaid. Note it has been fixed in position with 2 point clips and a fishplate screwed into the sleeper.

 

 

To end todays post I came across this photo I had taken.

To leave you with the question. Is it a catch point or not a catch point??

I will let you know the answer in due course unless someone gets it in the meantime.

 

Paul J.

[Southernman46]

Hmmm - weird

 

It has a twin in the cess rail about a chain in rear too - some kind of curious expansion switches ??

 

but I've had enough of PW for one night - off to bed !!

 

EDIT

 

Yeah - they must be bullhead expansion switches - don't think I've EVER seen any though.

[The Stationmaster]

Hmmm - weird

 

It has a twin in the cess rail about a chain in rear too - some kind of curious expansion switches ??

 

but I've had enough of PW for one night - off to bed !!

 

EDIT

 

Yeah - they must be bullhead expansion switches - don't think I've EVER seen any though.

I'm trying to remember the locations but there were several stretches of bullhead 'CWR' on the Western at one time although all well away from the really fast sections of route.  However while they were indeed 'continuously welded' I believe at least some of the joints were site welded.

 

There might have been a stretch on the Newquay branch although that could have been flat bottom - it's a long time ago since I saw it and it was reputedly the oldest section of full length cwr on the region.

[big jim]

To end todays post I came across this photo I had taken.

Mystery photo.jpg

To leave you with the question. Is it a catch point or not a catch point??

I will let you know the answer in due course unless someone gets it in the meantime.

 

Paul J.

 

im going to say thats a double curve expansion joint and there is another a bit futher along and i'm going to throw my hat into the ring as say its either between pen-y-ffordd and hope or hawarden and buckley?

[LNERGE]

Here's one i saw earlier..

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_05_2013/post-4034-0-60725500-1368350075.jpg

[Trog]

BH expansion joints have seen then installed alternately in either rail on I think ex LT track on what is now the Chiltern Line.

 

The catch pints shown clipped out of use a couple of posts up, where the blades and stock rails run parallel are the CWR compatible version.

[LNERGE]

BH expansion joints have seen then installed alternately in either rail on I think ex LT track on what is now the Chiltern Line.

 

The catch pints shown clipped out of use a couple of posts up, where the blades and stock rails run parallel are the CWR compatible version.

When you say CWR compatible what makes them so? Are they inclined switches or vertical with twist rails? I have encountered a new one that is causing a headache.

[Grovenor]

When you say CWR compatible what makes them so? Are they inclined switches or vertical with twist rails? I have encountered a new one that is causing a headache.

I take it that its the stock and switch rails being bolted together for a dozen sleepers or so that allows the thermal stresses to be passed through without upsetting the switch operation, using a normal short catch point there would be nowhere to put enough strength. CWR compatible turnouts have all those big cast strengthening blocks to achieve the same effect.

Inclined or vertical has no real effect on this issue,

Regards

Keith

[45669]

To return to the wide-to-gauge trap points; looking through Dave F's always-interesting selection of photos, I found this posted yesterday:-

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-2nd-july/page-145 

The photo to look at is C6717, which is a view from the Castle Keep in Newcastle of a unit taking the route towards the High-Level Bridge. On the track on the left side (Up Goods?) is a W-T-G trap; what I didn't notice until a few minutes ago was the more usual type (presumably serving as a catch point) on the adjacent Down Goods.

 

I've not noticed it before, but it's just visible in this shot : 

 

R1472.  4472 at Newcastle.  May, 1964. by Ron Fisher, on Flickr

 

Click on the picture to enlarge it and then click on the arrows in the top right hand corner to enlarge it again.

[Swindon 123]

The answer to the question I posed in my mystery photo a couple of posts ago is as follows. As Southernman46 guessed they are expansion joints for bulhead track. big jim was right on the location. They where on the up line between Penyfford and Hope stations where the track was jointed bulhead rail on concrete sleepers for about a mile, maybe slightly more in length. Around 1999 or thereabouts, they welded up all the joints along this section to effectively make it continuously welded and put in the joints as seen in the photo around every 400 yds. As noted they where staggered, I assume to prevent possible track buckling if they where opposite each other. The section concerned has now been replaced by CWR on steel sleepers, as has most if not all of the route between Wrexham and Dee Marsh.

With regards to the comment by Trog about the Condover catch point being a CWR equivalent are incorrect as it was always a catch point and designed as such. It did last a lot longer in position than others on the route and so may have been utilized as one, but that was not what it was designed as. Below are some photos of expansion joints for CWR at a nunber of locations. There seem to be two types. The first of the batch show those that use short lengths of bullhead rail fixed down flat to act as an anchor for the joint. The other type use flat bottom rail fixed upright across the joint. Hopefully the photos will make it clear.

 

Photo taken on the OVR at the West end of Margam Yard. At the time of the photo the GPL was the last one surviving before replacement by the double red type. Two of the bullhead type joints can be seen. The LH one was bolted onto steel sleepers and the RH one onto concrete.

 

This one is on the line from Swansea Burrows. The signal is the junction signal for Jersey Marine South Jcn and the RH feather is lit showing we will take the line to Dynevor Jcn at Jersey Marine South. The expansion joint is on wooden sleepers with concrete either side.

 

Next one is at Maindy East Junction before re-signaling and shows another wooden mounted joint amongst concrete sleepers.

 

The next is on the Usk Bridge just outside Newport station and shows one on wooden sleeper only. Its position also means the two "derailment rails" running down the middle of the track have had to be cut to accommodate it.

 

The last of the bullhead type is at Gaer Junction and shows them bolted on to concrete sleepers. Also note the felled gantry as a result of the signaling alterations taking place.

 

The next batch of photos are of the flat bottom rail type. The first two where taken at Pontrilas between Newport and Hereford. Both are fixed to wooden sleepers in amongst the concrete ones.

 

The next was taken at Abergavenny and is also mounted on wood sleepers in amongst the concrete ones. A little further up on the opposite running line is a joint using bullhead rail bolted onto concrete sleepers, which seems to be the preferred method nowadays.

 

Next shot is nearly side on and shows that the ends of the rail where painted yellow as they where a trip hazard. They didn't stay yellow for long before getting to dirty to notice. That may be the reason they have fallen out of favor. Up goods loop at Stormy.

 

The last one was taken on the Down Hereford approaching Maindy West Jcn at Newport and is another timber mounted one amongst concrete. This is the only type I ever came across and photographed of the flat bottom rail type.

 

I hope the above are of help to modelers in understanding and accurately modeling the P-Way.

 

Paul J.

[big jim]

Blimey it comes to something when i can correctly identify a location by the expansion joints!!

 

Especially as the last time i drove it was 2008!