Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Interesting article here - coming soon to stations around London but not part of Oyster.  Don't ask me what this means as I don't use Oyster enough but it sounds like things will be getting confusing soon.

Which basically confirms what GWR said some months ago (as I think I reported in this thread) that they had not agreed to Oyster being extended beyond the London boundary and revenue will be split using Orcats.   It's obviously not so much of a problem at some stations but it could be a substantial problem at others - particularly the branch junctions and the stations served by GWR services - if people are under the impression that they can use an Oyster card to travel (or simply to gain entry to the platforms - as at Reading) and then try to use it on a non TfL train which happens to be faster than the Crossrail service.  As mentioned previously I can see potential problems at stations with staffed barrier lines for the users of Freedom Passes with TfL having said they will be available to any station served by a Crossrail train - and presumably card readers will also reject them?

 

 

So tapping-in/out by normal contactless procedures seems a logical way to avoid the problem.  Presumably the necessary contactless readers will be installed by January at those stations which currently don't have them (e.g Twyford) although GWR's rep did say that you need tap in or out (or read in or out?) at only one end of the journey - which makes sense as far as ticket holders are concerned but presumably anybody tapping in or out using a bank card etc would have to do so at both ends of the journey.

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, Christopher125 said:

 

That's a perfectly valid theory, but longitudinal seating has been used around the world for decades - is there any actual evidence that it has health implications? 

Is there any evidence that it doesn't?  Nowadays that has to be the question and not the other way round.  Hence there should have been a risk assessment (maybe there was and maybe it produced a satisfactory result - only TfL can answer that).

 

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

 

The first responsibility for the crew of a failed train is, and always has been, that they should protect the train. Which means, in effect, that someone has to walk about half a mile back up the line to place detonators on the rail. Unfortunately with DOO it so only the driver that can do this.

 

The idea that any train crew would abandon their passengers to their fate seems to me to be an utmost, unthinking, calumny.

 

 

Nowadays it definitely does not mean that anybody has to walk 'about half a mile'.   So let's get it right -

!.  There's a radio in the cab which can be used to immediately contact the signal box - no need to even leave the cab (apart from ascertaining which lines are affected and that could come later anyway).

2. Obtain assurance from the relevant Signalman(ler) that the disabled etc rain is protected by fixed signals.  An emergency message can also be broadcast to other trains in the area.

Only if it is not possible to contact the Signaman(ler) or obtain the assurance that the train is protected by fixed is detonator protection needed.

3. If detonator protection is needed you always protect the opposite line first, there is no immediate need to 'walk... back' and there never has been except on multiple track railway.

4.  For over 40 years the detonator protection has to be at least 1 mile (and latterly 1.25 miles) from the train when protecting an opposite line or any other running line fouled or thought to be fouled by the disabled train 9no neeed to protect the line it is standing on in most cases).

5.  I haven't got a clue when then distance was 'about half a mile'. as it was 'not less than 3/4 of a mile' over 100 years ago and was increased to 1 mile (and in those times 1.25 miles for high speed lines) in the 1970s due to increasing train speeds.

 

So far as I'm aware - judging by recent (last week) example on a class 387 - there is nothing to prevent a Driver making an announcement to passengers.  One day last week the Driver of the train I was travelling on broadcast an apology for late running with a brief explanation of the reason on a train which was running 12 minutes late.  That was not the first time I have heard an announcement made by the Driver on a Class 387 train.

[caradoc]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I think its because the staff only have limited information too.

 

Train stops, the train companies have no info sit around waiting until Network rail says “go”. Thats certainly how it feels.

 

The only way the TOCs can respond is by telling people not to travel, and how to get a refund.

 

going by the incident my misses got stuck in, it was suggested it might be a trespasser on the track on twitter, so everything stopped for 2 hours... did someone go looking ?, dunno, did they have much luck finding someone in the dark ?, dunno, or did they just sit down and wait for 2 hours to assume enough time had passed. Dunno... was it a track worker, dunno. But all 4 lines at Balham saw no movement for 2 hours between 6pm and 8pm, no explanations, no expectations of how long the delay was.. lead to inevitable twitter comments of “run them over”..  In the end my misses headed off the stress by me relaying traksy movements to her to relay to the train that something was happening, and she shared with others including a guy who was ready to break a window and egress after two hours being just about able to see the platform he wanted to get to.

 

 

Did the Driver not make any announcements about the cause of the delay ? If so, that is very poor, given that every single train on the national network has direct radio communication with the controlling signalbox. The Signaller may not have had full information but the root cause of the problem must have been known; In an area like Balham, with all four lines blocked and scores of trains standing in their area, information can be passed, if necessary via a general call rather than having to speak to each Driver individually.

 

Regarding trespass (if that was the cause here), Network Rail are not necessarily in control of the incident, instead the Police may well demand that all lines are blocked and, if appropriate, power to the third rail switched off. Once that has been done, Network Rail certainly do not 'sit down and wait for 2 hours', instead staff would be despatched to site and in conjunction with both the local and BT Police the area would be searched until it was certain that no trespasser was on the track; Then all personnel would have to be confirmed clear before power could be restored and trains allowed to move. At the start of such an incident no-one knows how long it will take to resolve.

 

I agree absolutely that being stranded on a train for hours is a most unpleasant experience (made even worse if there are no toilets), and failing to give passengers information, in this age of instant and universal communication, is unforgiveable, but railway staff, whoever they work for, do not take lightly such incidents. During my career as a Controller there were certainly times when people were kept on trains for longer than either we, and definitely they, desired, but the causes were factors beyond our control, eg extreme weather, remote locations, staff availability. In most circumstances, the safest place for passengers is on board the train; detraining onto the track and wandering about pretty much uncontrolled, while sometimes understandable, usually just exarcebates the disruption.

 

 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

 

Did the Driver not make any announcements about the cause of the delay ? If so, that is very poor, given that every single train on the national network has direct radio communication with the controlling signalbox.

AIUI, the driver announced they were stuck outside the station at a red signal, and a train ahead was in the platform.

 

Thing is disruption is routine and part of the daily commute in London, TL suddenly expressing to its destination, and not informing passengers leaving them out of zone, and needing to return, services being canceled for several hours at a time (Epsom Downs and Tooting lines have sometimes gone without 12 hours of services... first delayed then canceled 1 at a time incrementally through the day)... journeys taking 6-7 hours thats supposed to be minutes its all new normality...

 

Whats needed is a provision, for passenger welfare, that kicks in at certain time points based on known info at the time.

 

Airlines in the US were forced into this, following excessive ground delays, passengers were being stuck in seats waiting to take off for 6+ hours..They sued for kidnapping and won, leading to a law change that delays beyond 4 hours passengers must be deboarded..

 

Quote

After a tarmac delay of two hours, passengers must be provided with food, water, operational lavatories, and medical care (medical care only if needed).

After a tarmac delay of three hours in the U.S., passengers must be given the option to deplane.

After a tarmac delay of four hours outside of the U.S., passengers must be given the option to deplane.

Thing is planes have toilets, refreshments and everyone has a seat... rush hour commuter services dont.

Maybe we need a law here that kicks in with an assessment at 30minutes, and implementing actions at 1 hour, especially where “unknowns” relating to the incident are a factor. Additionally passengers should be encouraged to use the emergency intercom with the driver, without fear of penalty during extended delays.

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by adb968008

[billbedford]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Nowadays it definitely does not mean that anybody has to walk 'about half a mile'.   So let's get it right -

 

Just what makes the internet so wonderful -- post something you half remember and someone will be there to filling all the gory details to put you right.

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

So far as I'm aware - judging by recent (last week) example on a class 387 - there is nothing to prevent a Driver making an announcement to passengers.

 

That wasn't the point I was making. The fact that train crew can speak to passenger via the PA is a blinding glimpse of the bleeding obvious. OTOH there appears to be no way that controllers can do the same. 

[iands]

28 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 OTOH there appears to be no way that controllers can do the same. 

But signallers can - and (on DOO services) without the intervention of the driver (e.g. the driver could exit the cab, or become incapacitated due to other reasons). The point I was trying to make is that in the "integrated control room" scenarios where Route Controllers and TOC Controllers share the same floor space as signallers, it should be very easy for said parties to communicate with each other and to keep passengers stuck on trains informed.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, iands said:

But signallers can - and (on DOO services) without the intervention of the driver (e.g. the driver could exit the cab, or become incapacitated due to other reasons). The point I was trying to make is that in the "integrated control room" scenarios where Route Controllers and TOC Controllers share the same floor space as signallers, it should be very easy for said parties to communicate with each other and to keep passengers stuck on trains informed.

 

In complex incidents the controllers (please remember that you normally only have one or two on duty at any given time) will be extremely busy dealing with everybody else - emergency services, trackside staff, electrical control, etc. Its not as if they sit here twiddling their thumbs!

 

In rapidly changing situations its sometimes impossible to keep track of absolutely everything - particularly when reliable estimates as to when some form of resolution might happen cannot be given. Yes I'm sure there are improvements that can be made, and yes its immensely frustrating (or even downright uncomfortable / distressing) for passenger to be stranded on trains going nowhere - but such things are not done deliberately

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by phil-b259

[iands]

Absolutely Phil. I've been in "Control" a few times (in an official capacity) when the "brown smelly stuff hits the fast spinning thing" and witnessed first hand the sudden increase in workloads - usually (and thankfully) not related to my particular visit or engineering discipline. 

[royaloak]

5 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Did the Driver not make any announcements about the cause of the delay ? If so, that is very poor, given that every single train on the national network has direct radio communication with the controlling signalbox. The Signaller may not have had full information but the root cause of the problem must have been known; In an area like Balham, with all four lines blocked and scores of trains standing in their area, information can be passed, if necessary via a general call rather than having to speak to each Driver individually.

 

Good luck getting any information from the signaller, the last 8 'conversations' I have had have been very abrupt indeed despite me starting very politely, even when I pointed out the platform I was routed in to couldnt be used for the timetabled attachment I was asked if I was refusing to accept the route, I very nearly said no and accepted the signal which would have effed the job up a treat but I remembered why we were running trains, but before I could answer the signal was put back and THEN he told me he was putting it back, very poor show.

 

And they wonder why there is a them and us attitude prevalent on the railways.

 

The ability is there but it isnt used, when we are stopped at a red signal (out of course) and press the SG we just get 'wait' back with no other explanation.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

In complex incidents the controllers (please remember that you normally only have one or two on duty at any given time) will be extremely busy dealing with everybody else - emergency services, trackside staff, electrical control, etc. Its not as if they sit here twiddling their thumbs!

 

In rapidly changing situations its sometimes impossible to keep track of absolutely everything - particularly when reliable estimates as to when some form of resolution might happen cannot be given. Yes I'm sure there are improvements that can be made, and yes its immensely frustrating (or even downright uncomfortable / distressing) for passenger to be stranded on trains going nowhere - but such things are not done deliberately

 

 

It varies with the incident involved and - dare I say it =- probably also to some extent with the people involved.  some folk are very good at multi=tasking and some are not and in a Control office type situation you need to have masses of different information you can quickly assemble in your brain and then advise out.  Nowadays the technology part of it is pretty good but I have been on trains (such as the morning of the Ladbroke Grove collision) where passengers were getting information off various mobile devices far more quickly than the Guard could get any official information and disseminate it.

 

But when you are doing a task which makes three-dimensional chess look like simplicity itself it is very easy to overlook getting out updates and sometimes it isn't even sensible to put out updates because you are dealing with a very fluid situation.  But what it always needs is decision making that tries to keep abreast of what can or can't be done and what is known and it's usually pretty easy to assess what can't be done - and that can at least be advised out as a sort of 'holding message'.  But you really do need a very good detailed knowledge of the railway infrastructure and resource availability to get even the simplest messages out of your planning mode.

[Zomboid]

At times of major disruption I tend to think that the reason for a lack of information about what's going on and what will happen next is because nobody really knows. Decisions have to be made on the fly and then implemented instantly.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

At times of major disruption I tend to think that the reason for a lack of information about what's going on and what will happen next is because nobody really knows. Decisions have to be made on the fly and then implemented instantly.

I don't remember seeing you in the room.....

[St. Simon]

On 27/09/2019 at 11:41, The Stationmaster said:

Work is clearly in hand at many stations west of West Drayton installing camera structures  for DOO operation of Class 345 trains but no monitors had appeared last week when I travelled to/from London.  Does anybody know if the camera information is transmitted to monitors in the driving cab as some very large equipment cupboards have appeared at various stations which would seem to be far bigger than is required for a normal camera/platform mounted monitor system?  Platform mounted monitors would have to be set well back at many stations to avoid obscuring signals.

 

Hi,

 

To try and get the thread back on topic about Crossrail, I thought I'd answer the above the question from Mike a couple of weeks ago...

 

Assuming I've read the documentation I have just been reviewing currently, then yes, the DOO Camera images will be transmitted into the cab of the Class 345's by a 'leaky feeder' cable running along the platform wall.

 

Simon

 

[DY444]

9 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

To try and get the thread back on topic about Crossrail, I thought I'd answer the above the question from Mike a couple of weeks ago...

 

Assuming I've read the documentation I have just been reviewing currently, then yes, the DOO Camera images will be transmitted into the cab of the Class 345's by a 'leaky feeder' cable running along the platform wall.

 

Simon

 

 

Which iirc is the same method employed by London Underground

[jim.snowdon]

10 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

To try and get the thread back on topic about Crossrail, I thought I'd answer the above the question from Mike a couple of weeks ago...

 

Assuming I've read the documentation I have just been reviewing currently, then yes, the DOO Camera images will be transmitted into the cab of the Class 345's by a 'leaky feeder' cable running along the platform wall.

 

Simon

 

That would explain the cable that has appeared just below the platform edge. I was wondering what that was all about.

 

Jim

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

To try and get the thread back on topic about Crossrail, I thought I'd answer the above the question from Mike a couple of weeks ago...

 

Assuming I've read the documentation I have just been reviewing currently, then yes, the DOO Camera images will be transmitted into the cab of the Class 345's by a 'leaky feeder' cable running along the platform wall.

 

Simon

 

Thank you Simon - that explains the new  cables, on new fixings, which have appeared on the platform walls at Twyford.  Black cable with a green line along it.  Let's just hope that what leaks from it doesn't interfere with what is going on in any closely adjacent cables or indeed that what it leaks doesn't get mixed up with any electro-magnetic emissions from trains passing on adjacent lines; no doubt that has all been taken into consideration in the design?  

[Bernard Lamb]

Changing trains at Whitechapel today I saw that the station is along way from being finished with a large area sill behind the blue boards and a large work force in evidence. Going down Stepney Green near the junction, road ways are being reinstated and work looks to be progressing well. The stack of temporary buildings is still there but the area has been cleared of a lot of rubbish. The signs do however still refer to Crossrail. Red direction signs and the old purple banner are both visible.

Bernard

 

[iands]

21 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

To try and get the thread back on topic about Crossrail, I thought I'd answer the above the question from Mike a couple of weeks ago...

 

Assuming I've read the documentation I have just been reviewing currently, then yes, the DOO Camera images will be transmitted into the cab of the Class 345's by a 'leaky feeder' cable running along the platform wall.

 

Simon

 

It's finally happening then. Back in 2015 I was the RfL Telecoms PE Technical Advisor on the Crossrail project and one of my responsibilities was to review, and where appropriate, to accept the Reference Designs for the DOO systems, both on the stations on the NR side of the fence (Shenfield to Stratford and Paddington to Maidenhead) and the Crossrail stations on the core route, including Abbey Wood.

[billbedford]

In another part of the woods.

 

All speculation but...

[Bernard Lamb]

20 minutes ago, billbedford said:

In another part of the woods.

 

All speculation but...

The most sensible thing I have seen for years.

Joined up thinking at last.

Amazing.

But why not just change at Whitechapel?

I am sure that the punters will soon learn to ignore the official route and take the quickest route. Just as they do in several other places.

Bernard

[DY444]

21 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

The most sensible thing I have seen for years.

Joined up thinking at last.

Amazing.

But why not just change at Whitechapel?

I am sure that the punters will soon learn to ignore the official route and take the quickest route. Just as they do in several other places.

Bernard

 

I think Whitechapel is the least complete of the stations and a racing certainty to be the last station of all to be completed.  It would therefore be unlikely to feature in any "early" opening of the route.

 

*If* opening the east end is being considered then imo a big reason would be to allow 9 car operation to Shenfield sooner.  Also, given the high likelihood of teething problems (especially with the signalling), I think I'd be looking to run to Shenfield and Abbey Wood as two separate services rather than run through from one to the other.  

[Bernard Lamb]

15 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

I think Whitechapel is the least complete of the stations and a racing certainty to be the last station of all to be completed.  It would therefore be unlikely to feature in any "early" opening of the route.

 

*If* opening the east end is being considered then imo a big reason would be to allow 9 car operation to Shenfield sooner.  Also, given the high likelihood of teething problems (especially with the signalling), I think I'd be looking to run to Shenfield and Abbey Wood as two separate services rather than run through from one to the other.  

I did not say the same train would run through. I said to change at Whitechapel.

Are you saying that the trains will run straight through Whitechapel on both branches and not stop?

That would not go down well with the locals who have had to endure years of disruption.

I would expect the station to open in some form or another just to make changing trains possible.

Any one have the current costs?

The last I heard was from an estimate of circa £110m it is running at circa £550m. But with the proviso that this figure is from a local political source.

Bernard

[Platform 1]

Photos from inside Paddington’s Crossrail station: https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/10/22/photos-from-inside-paddingtons-crossrail-station/

 

[DY444]

On 18/10/2019 at 08:27, Bernard Lamb said:

I did not say the same train would run through. I said to change at Whitechapel.

Are you saying that the trains will run straight through Whitechapel on both branches and not stop?

That would not go down well with the locals who have had to endure years of disruption.

I would expect the station to open in some form or another just to make changing trains possible.

Any one have the current costs?

The last I heard was from an estimate of circa £110m it is running at circa £550m. But with the proviso that this figure is from a local political source.

Bernard

 

I know you said change at Whitechapel and when everything is finished that is what you would obviously do.  However Whitechapel is one of the stations that is very late and thus a candidate to be the last station to be completed and therefore might not be ready if there is an "early" opening of the eastern end of the line.  If Whitechapel were unfinished then CR trains would not stop there and you would be obliged to change at Liverpool St until such time as it is finished.  The suggestion there would be through trains from one branch to the other came from the article referenced up thread.  I think it is daft.

Edited October 22, 2019 by DY444

[Platform 1]

Farringdon almost ready: