Castle Aching

[Nearholmer]

Having consulted 'the book', I now know that the LBSCR had a grand total of four gunpowder vans, which seem (there appears to be some doubt) to have been a steel clad version of their standard 8T van. They seem to have had 'square' corners, whereas I think the LSWR zones (built for them by the GWR?) had 'round' corners.

 

There were a good number of powder mills in Surrey and Sussex, but I think most of them were nearer SER lines than LBSCR ones, so it would be interesting to know how this traffic was worked ........ did the railway within whose territory a mill was situated provide a wagon that went "off system" to the customer, then came back empty, or did the destination company send an empty van to the station nearest the mill? And, who were the customers? Chalk quarries I guess used some, and somebody must have made 12 and 16 gauge shotgun cartridges, which were a popular consumable 'in the sticks' ........ so, did boxes of cartridges travel in these vans ....... I doubt it, because each town or village probably only took a few cases each year .......

 

K

 

"So, bouy, what'em you doin' gittin yer self awf the twitten, an on moy lahnd, then?"

 

(Although his weapon looks like a muzzle-loader, rather than one that takes commercially-made cartridges)

Edited March 19, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Nick Holliday]

Having consulted 'the book', I now know that the LBSCR had a grand total of four gunpowder vans, which seem (there appears to be some doubt) to have been a steel clad version of their standard 8T van. They seem to have had 'square' corners, whereas I think the LSWR zones (built for them by the GWR?) had 'round' corners.

There were a good number of powder mills in Surrey and Sussex, but I think most of them were nearer SER lines than LBSCR ones, so it would be interesting to know how this traffic was worked ........ did the railway within whose territory a mill was situated provide a wagon that went "off system" to the customer, then came back empty, or did the destination company send an empty van to the station nearest the mill? And, who were the customers? Chalk quarries I guess used some, and somebody must have made 12 and 16 gauge shotgun cartridges, which were a popular consumable 'in the sticks' ........ so, did boxes of cartridges travel in these vans ....... I doubt it, because each town or village probably only took a few cases each year .....

I wasn't aware of much gunpowder manufacturing in Surrey, although there were a few firework factories around Sutton. The main sources in the south seem to have been at Faversham and Corringham, and the Government sites at Woolwich and Waltham Abbey. Just to add to the mix, in the recent book on SE PO Wagons, there is a photo of a pair of gunpowder vans owned by the Cotton Powder Company Ltd. of Faversham.

[Donw]

Good that work is progressing on the baseboards Edwardian.

 

I certainly will have some Gunpowder wagons. The works at Penrhyndeudraeth depended on the railway. Mind you I have no details on whether the Cambrian had GPVs. I am sure some could have gone via Dolgelley 

 

Don

[scotcent]

There  is  somehere  a  photograph  of  the  main  street  in  Kelty  (a  small  mining  village  in  Fife).  There  is  a  shopfront  advertising,  inter  alia,  Black  Powder  and  Dynamite.  Now,   I  understand  that  in  those  days  (pre  1900) it  was  the  practice  for  firemen  (who  fired  the  explosives  in  mines  and  quarries)  to  provide  their  own  explosives.  I  also  know  that  in  at  least  some  mines  and  quarries  there  was  a  magazine,  at  a  distance  from  anything  else,  in  which  explosives  were  stored.  My  knowledge  of  this  field  is  very  sketchy,  and  may  be  quite  wrong.  In  Scotland,  and  I  understand  in  England  too(!)  there  were  many  hundreds  of  mines,  most  of  which  used  explosives;  but  I  doubt  if  any  of  them  needed  a  van  full.  So  how  were  the  explosives  transported,  distributed,  and  stored?  I  except  military  material,  which I'm  sure  was  a  separate  subject

 

Allan  F

[Edwardian]

Fascinating subject, GPVs, especially the wide difference in numbers; GER 10, CR 24, LB&SCR 4, and SER/SE&CR presumably rather more, plus the POs mentioned by Nick.

 

Yesterday I was given a pass and the car key for the hours between horse activity.  It took an hour to Ormesby Hall (Middlesbrough), which gave me a little over 2 hours on the ground.  The NT had got wise to people using this event as cheap entry to the house, so that had been taken off the menu, but I had been round the house last year and did not have time yesterday.  As usual at these events, I kept being offered NT membership.  This always depresses me as it causes me to recall our that NT membership one of the many casualties of the Credit Crunch and reminds me that we have yet to recover fully.

 

The children whizzed around the exhibits while I chatted to Jonathan.  My son has resisted the railway and modelling bugs, alas, so this did not take them long.  Jonathan had kindly brought along some LNER 6-wheelers he had acquired, which were converted from the Ratio Midland suburban coaches; using the sides, roofs and roof fittings from the look of them, and we reckon they were ex-GER vehicles. There were 4 All Thirds and 2 Brake Thirds, and very nicely done they were too.  They had a rather weathered, darkened, teak, which looked to be a convincing interpretation of their LNER state. A 6-coach rake of GER 6-wheelers is just what I'd like for CA, though looking a little fresher and newer for 1905, so Jonathan's coaches were both interesting and inspirational to see.

 

Also in his Tuppaware box of delights was a diminutive 'prison on wheels' which Jonathan has convincingly identified as an Eastern Counties Parliamentary coach!

 

With the children safely installed in the Hall gardens, I was free to contemplate the wonderful Corfe Castle, and, thanks to Jonathan, including a backstage tour.  My thanks go to him and all the volunteers for a thoroughly enjoyable return visit.

 

Yesterday, with Jonathan at the controls a gratifying variety of trains were run, so I make no apologies for posting yet more pictures of this very fine layout:

,

  

[Nearholmer]

Cracking stuff, Edwardian and Jonathon.

 

Interesting that the young edwardians aren't into railway modelling ...... I'd love my son to be, but his is pretty much "total sport", and if that is his star, best help him pursue it.

 

Nick - there was a huge powder mill at Chilworth, and smaller ones in the Tolworth area. Then, in Sussex, several in The Weald, the biggest I think at Battle. Pre-industrial revolution, the Weald was an ideal spot, producing vast quantities of copse wood which was burnt for charcoal, and having lots of energetic streams to drive water wheels. I think that production of powder in Sussex probably declined in parallel with the decline of the iron making and founding industry, once Coalbrookdale got going, but the Surrey ones went on into C20th, and Chilworth went over to modern explosives latterly. Chilworth may well have used primarily water transport, rather than rail, though, because it greatly pre-dated railways (by about 250 years!).

 

Kevin

 

PS: I just found this in the listing details for Chilworth: "....... with structures from the 1880s-90s surviving particularly well. Important survivals include components of the original transport and power systems which connected the site, and the 1880s tramway has been identified as running on one of the earliest metric-gauge tracks in Britain....... ". Lots visible on 1895 OS; the station is off-sheet, to the right. The listing site says that the tramway was manually worked, but I don't believe a word of it ...... try pushing a metre gauge wagon, loaded with coal or finished product over those distances!!! It must have been at least horse-worked ........ it has been written-up in an IRS journal donkeys years ago, but I'm supposed to be busy today, so had better not start hunting that out!

Edited March 20, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Northroader]

That is a really beautiful layout. On the question of GER coach colours, I was talking to Mr Phoenix Paints a while ago, after some GER coach brown, and he didn't do it, because he'd never been able to find a reliable sample to match it to. Looking at the model layouts where I have colour pictures, first Graham Overtons "Little Fen", his coaches are done In a scheme which I could best describe as like a cup of tea, not too strong and not too milky. Then there's the Welding Institutes MRC "Sporle", here the coaches are a mixture, a lot are the same "tea" colour, but there are also teak ones and mahogany ones. The British Railway Modelling series by Nigel Digby says coaches were plain varnished teak, but once panels became discoloured, brown "teak" paint was used, and yellow lining applied. His painting shows a somewhat scruffy teak finish. Rather confusingly the GER painted their coaches MR crimson lake post WW1, and the preserved compo (on the KESR?) is done like this. In LNER days it looks like they went back to "teak" paint.

[jwealleans]

The above is correct and Dan Pinnock says the Stratford colour was akin to Humbrol 133. I did one carriage like that and it looked so bl**dy awful (In my opinion) that I invoked Rule 1 and went back to a mixture of Humbrol 62 or 186 and a spot of black. Can't put my hands on a photo just at the moment but I'll paste one if one turns up.

Edited March 20, 2017 by jwealleans

[Edwardian]

That is a really beautiful layout. On the question of GER coach colours, I was talking to Mr Phoenix Paints a while ago, after some GER coach brown, and he didn't do it, because he'd never been able to find a reliable sample to match it to. Looking at the model layouts where I have colour pictures, first Graham Overtons "Little Fen", his coaches are done In a scheme which I could best describe as like a cup of tea, not too strong and not too milky. Then there's the Welding Institutes MRC "Sporle", here the coaches are a mixture, a lot are the same "tea" colour, but there are also teak ones and mahogany ones. The British Railway Modelling series by Nigel Digby says coaches were plain varnished teak, but once panels became discoloured, brown "teak" paint was used, and yellow lining applied. His painting shows a somewhat scruffy teak finish. Rather confusingly the GER painted their coaches MR crimson lake post WW1, and the preserved compo (on the KESR?) is done like this. In LNER days it looks like they went back to "teak" paint.

 

Yes, it is an interesting subject, and I have never attempted 'scumbled' teak, so in due course we shall see. In 1905 I am in teak days and the coaches will date from 1880s-1890s.  The types that D&S produces were, from memory, c.1896-7.  So they should look fairly fresh and new - opposite end of the spectrum from Pott Row's more venerable coaches!

 

I note what you say about tea - I shall make some tea before I start, and see if I can't reproduce the colour!

 

It seems, however, that there is quite a choice of teas out there:  

[Edwardian]

The above is correct and Dan Pinnock says the Stratford colour was akin to Humbrol 133. I did one carriage like that and it looked so bl**dy awful (In my opinion) that I invoked Rule 1 and went back to a mixture of Humbrol 62 or 186 and a spot of black. Can't put my hands on a photo juts at the moment but I'll paste one if one turns up.

 

Thanks, Jonathan, posts crossed. 

 

Any photographs of what might be considered an acceptable shade would be most welcome!

 

EDIT: Of course, pictures of paint samples are hardly a perfect guide, but Humbrol 133, Brown Satin, looks very dark and rich.  Not sure I'd drink it if offered tea that colour.

 

No. 62 (Leather) and No. 186 (Brown) do look much more drinkable.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Edwardian

[jwealleans]

I can direct readers to this video (and who needs an excuse?) starting around 2:50. The 4 carriage ex-GER rake is what we're looking for here and it's the 50' Composite, the third vehicle in the rake, which is the dubious colour.

 

The lighting blends them in better than I think they look to the naked eye. The rest are painted in either P996 Track dirt or the Humbrol mixture mentioned above.

Edited March 20, 2017 by jwealleans

[corneliuslundie]

Joe Rowe used to use veneer to get his teak finish on LNER carriages and very good they were. I am sure he wrote it up in one of the magazines. I can't remember if the veneer was actually teak. PMP of this parish may remember.

Jonathan

[St Enodoc]

Lucky lot - when we went to Bramley for a demo of various activities we were only allowed to watch the explosives demonstrations.  

 

Highlight of the day was rather different - it was a few weeks before Bisley and at that time they were still shooting .303 and the only Army stock was stored at Bramley, about 1 million rounds.  However when they got the first lot out of the sealed container some of the rounds were found to be corroded and the corrosion was traced to something in the dye which had been used for the bandoliers.  We were told it was the only .303 stock left so they had to set too and clean up what was usable and blow up the badly corroded stuff and in this hut there were a series of tables with three chaps sorting and grading the rounds before cleaning them or putting them in the 'to be destroyed' stack.  They must have been bored out of their minds.

We used to shoot .303 at Bisley with the CCF in the schools' Ashburton competition. Lee-Enfield Mark 4s if I recall correctly. This was in the early 1970s.

[Edwardian]

Cracking stuff, Edwardian and Jonathon.

 

Interesting that the young edwardians aren't into railway modelling ...... I'd love my son to be, but his is pretty much "total sport", and if that is his star, best help him pursue it.

 

Nick - there was a huge powder mill at Chilworth, and smaller ones in the Tolworth area. Then, in Sussex, several in The Weald, the biggest I think at Battle. Pre-industrial revolution, the Weald was an ideal spot, producing vast quantities of copse wood which was burnt for charcoal, and having lots of energetic streams to drive water wheels. I think that production of powder in Sussex probably declined in parallel with the decline of the iron making and founding industry, once Coalbrookdale got going, but the Surrey ones went on into C20th, and Chilworth went over to modern explosives latterly. Chilworth may well have used primarily water transport, rather than rail, though, because it greatly pre-dated railways (by about 250 years!).

 

Kevin

 

PS: I just found this in the listing details for Chilworth: "....... with structures from the 1880s-90s surviving particularly well. Important survivals include components of the original transport and power systems which connected the site, and the 1880s tramway has been identified as running on one of the earliest metric-gauge tracks in Britain....... ". Lots visible on 1895 OS; the station is off-sheet, to the right. The listing site says that the tramway was manually worked, but I don't believe a word of it ...... try pushing a metre gauge wagon, loaded with coal or finished product over those distances!!! It must have been at least horse-worked ........ it has been written-up in an IRS journal donkeys years ago, but I'm supposed to be busy today, so had better not start hunting that out!

 

Scenes not often modelled, No.23 in an occasional series: The Gunpowder Mill

 

Well, the comment "with structures from the 1880s-90s surviving particularly well" piqued my interest.  What did a late Nineteenth Century gunpowder mill look like anyway?

 

Well, in Glorious Technicolor we have a picture showing massive surviving walls at Chilworth.  It looks to me as if far more impermanent structures once existed between these massive 'blast walls'.  I assume that the idea was that, if one 'cell' exploded, the walls would prevent ignition of the cells either side.  I suppose like bulk-heads in the hold of a ship to prevent the whole from flooding, you know the idea that worked so brilliantly on the Titanic.  

 

What once went in between?  Well, I haven't found an old view of Chilworth yet, but in Glorious Tech-no-colour is a picture of a mill at Fernilee in the delightfully named Goyt Valley, near Whaley Bridge, showing that the 'in-fill' could be as insubstantial as you like (no point in wasting bricks and mortar in case the thing blew up, I suppose).

 

The latter view shows the Mill's "fire brigade".  One does wonder what these boys would achieve, assuming any were still alive, if the place went to Kingdom Come.  Still, it no doubt conformed to the Health & Safety Risk Assessment.

 

According to the Stockport Advertiser in May 1836;

We are sorry to state that an explosion took place at the Powder Mills, at Fernilee, this morning, about seven o’clock, in the stoving house, by which two unfortunate creatures were in one moment deprived of their existence.

 

RIP.

 

More here:http://goyt-valley.org.uk/fernilee-powder-mill/

 

 

 

Fascinating stuff.

[Nearholmer]

Brilliant.

 

I explored Chilworth in the 1970s, when it was massively hard to understand, just odd bits of industralia, heavily grown into a wood, much of it exceedingly wet. At that time, I couldn't get a decent map, although I'm sure Surrey records office had them. Now, apparently, it is bristling with interpretive signage, way-marked paths etc ...... return visit in order, hopefully.

 

Those cells were designed with lightweight structures, to give a blast vent. Sometimes they had a lightweight tin roof, which pivoted as it blow open, the pivoting action controlling drench-valves for adjacent cells.

 

Indoor high-voltage switchgear is sometimes arranged similarly, to avoid a malfunction in one circuit-breaker spreading mayhem to all around.

 

Some sites definitely had locomotive worked narrow-gauge tramways, and one even had a complete, passenger-carrying narrow gauge line http://www.faversham.org/history/More_History/davington_railway.aspx , to bring workers in. In some really dodgy areas, some, I believe, had hand-propelled tramways with brass rails and wagon-wheels (or one or the other, I'd need to check).

 

I think the really destructive explosions have been at ammunition stores, rather than powder factories, though. RAF Faulds being the largest. Edit: seems that an explosion at the Faversham factory had an even worse death-toll, though. 108 people, 'remains buried in a mass grave', which sort of suggests great horribleness.

 

Being interested in industrial narrow gauge railways for a very long time does lead to accumulation of a lot of useless knowledge!

 

K

Edited March 20, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

This is really interesting, too.

 

http://www.clocktoweroffices.co.uk/pages/history.php

 

K

[Edwardian]

This is really interesting, too.

 

http://www.clocktoweroffices.co.uk/pages/history.php

 

K

 

Brilliant, and within easy reach of me. 

 

Very attractive range of buildings.  I love the picture of Mr Pennington sitting on the gunpowder van, driving the horse named 'Star', c.1930

[DonB]

Fauld explosion was felt and assumed at first to be an earthquake in Burton upon Trent ,some 9 miles away. Our late neighbour was at school in Burton that day, and told of her desk moving about a foot across the school floor . There is limited access to the crater site from the top of Hanbury Hill, ( I do not recommend cycling up the hill, it has been used by local cycling clubs for their annual "Hill-climb Championships" and is bl00dy steep!)

[The Stationmaster]

Its many years since I saw any regulations regarding the transit of explosives in passenger trains but I seem to remember (hopefully correctly) that 'small quantities of ammunition for personal use' were considered exempt from the Explosives Regulations and could be carried in personal luggage.  However at some time that changed to total prohibition.  My only experience dates from the late 1990s when the operator I was working for was governed by particular, very strict, legislation and when a gentleman from the USofA was found to have several rounds of pistol ammunition in his luggage he was considerably put out to be immediately placed under arrest and then be taken away for questioning by a more specialised part of the police force; he wondered why we Britsh so concerned when the security people at his US airport of departure had shown no interest in it at all.

 

All the printed Instructions which I can find relating to carriage of explosives refer only to 'goods train'.  If we go back to Pre-Group days it was permissible to tranship gunpowder at junction stations to branch trains but it is not clear from the base RCH Rules if it was required to be forwarded on the branch in a special vehicle (perhaps we should assume that would have been the case?).

[Andy Hayter]

 

 

At one time in the second half of the 1970s it was reputed that not a single commercial explosives magazine in the Mendips quarrying area was able to balance its physical stocks with what its register said there should be in stock.  (one explanation vouchsafed for this was 'cider' which allegedly interfered with accurate counting and recording). 

 

 

That was a period of very intense cave exploration in the Mendip and S Wales (and elsewhere) and there were occasions where a passage with great potential would be blocked with large boulders. 

Chemical persuasion was often the order of the day.  Many of those who indulged in these activities did not hold the necessary licences to purchase, store and chemically transform these materials.

This was perhaps not surprising given attitudes of the police to those who tried to do things the "proper" way.  A request for the necessary forms to obtain said licence was met with a stern statement that before any application would be entertained, experience in handing explosives would need to be demonstrated.  But of course to get such experience you would need to have a licence. 

 

Returning to Mendip quarries and their stocks, I believe that glasses of the said cider were used as a form of currency in exchange for the said materials of limited chemical stability. 

[Edwardian]

Its many years since I saw any regulations regarding the transit of explosives in passenger trains but I seem to remember (hopefully correctly) that 'small quantities of ammunition for personal use' were considered exempt from the Explosives Regulations and could be carried in personal luggage.  

 

Comme ça?

[corneliuslundie]

I am sure I have read that explosives stores at slate quarries were designed with a lightweight roof which would give in the event of an explosion, with the walls much stronger and able to withstand the blast.

Jonathan

[Caley Jim]

All the printed Instructions which I can find relating to carriage of explosives refer only to 'goods train'.  If we go back to Pre-Group days it was permissible to tranship gunpowder at junction stations to branch trains but it is not clear from the base RCH Rules if it was required to be forwarded on the branch in a special vehicle (perhaps we should assume that would have been the case?).

The Caledonian Railway 'General Instructions relating to Goods, Mineral and Live Stock Traffic' 1875 (reprint available from the CRA - see link below) has 4 pages of instructions relating to gunpowder vans and the handling of their contents.  Among these are :-

 

'5. Gunpowder must in all cases be packed in Kegs, Barrels, Cases or Metallic Cylinders of the prescribed qualities and no package must contain more than 100lbs weight of Gunpowder.' and

    'No Railway Van or Waggon must be loaded with more than 100 Barrels, and no Road or Street Vehicle must be loaded with more than 30 Barrels.'

'14.  Vans containing Gunpowder must be separated from the engine by an interval of as great a length as practicable.'  ( No mention of separation from the poor guard in the brake van!)

'15  Gunpowder for Branch Stations,or for any Station not on the direct route to be taken by the Van,must not be sent in small lots requiring transhipment, except in metallic cylinders.'

 

Spelling and capitalisation as per the book.

 

There is also mention of 'Magazine Boots' which had to be worn when loading and placed in the van for use when unloading.

 

Jim

[Caley Jim]

I am sure I have read that explosives stores at slate quarries were designed with a lightweight roof which would give in the event of an explosion, with the walls much stronger and able to withstand the blast.

Jonathan

The Magazine at Berwick Barracks has thick external walls,strongly buttressed and a light slated roof for that very reason.

 

 

Jim

[Donw]

The Caledonian Railway 'General Instructions relating to Goods, Mineral and Live Stock Traffic' 1875 (reprint available from the CRA - see link below) has 4 pages of instructions relating to gunpowder vans and the handling of their contents.  Among these are :-

 

'5. Gunpowder must in all cases be packed in Kegs, Barrels, Cases or Metallic Cylinders of the prescribed qualities and no package must contain more than 100lbs weight of Gunpowder.' and

    'No Railway Van or Waggon must be loaded with more than 100 Barrels, and no Road or Street Vehicle must be loaded with more than 30 Barrels.'

'14.  Vans containing Gunpowder must be separated from the engine by an interval of as great a length as practicable.'  ( No mention of separation from the poor guard in the brake van!)

'15  Gunpowder for Branch Stations,or for any Station not on the direct route to be taken by the Van,must not be sent in small lots requiring transhipment, except in metallic cylinders.'

 

Spelling and capitalisation as per the book.

 

There is also mention of 'Magazine Boots' which had to be worn when loading and placed in the van for use when unloading.

 

Jim

 

Would the 'Magazine Boots' possibly without hobnails which can cause sparks striking some materials. Sparks are generally to be avoided near explosives!

 

Don