Castle Aching

[Donw]

Rather more worrying to me is the suggestions that the high level of fossil fuel burning produces sufficient pollution to mask some of the temperature rise which will then occur when the pollution is removed.  If true the longer we delay taking action the more the effect will build. Snookered

 

Don

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Donw said:

It looks good to me. The only question I have is it looks as through the access to the turntable is via a loading dock so I would want to ensure there was sufficient room for the largest vehicle to use the dock and the largest loco likely to run  to both fit in and still allow the turnout to operate.

 

Don

 

Thanks, Don.

 

Yes, I see that I have made it look like that.

 

That feature is a carry-over from the Barnard Castle prototype plan. 

 

 

It looks, to me, as if this is not intended to be a loading dock, but simply the raised level of the platform fitting around the spur.  The spur should of course be longer than the longest loco, and there would seem to be ample room. 

 

Applying your point, it strikes me that items such as loco coal or ash wagons could be parked at the end of this spur until it is convenient to remove them, so perhaps the spur should be long enough to have a couple of wagons at the end as well as accommodating a loco? 

 

I have intended the cattle dock road to have the loading bank, for side and end unloading, and to have the crane, as this seems to have been the arrangement at Barnard Castle. 

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Donw said:

Rather more worrying to me is the suggestions that the high level of fossil fuel burning produces sufficient pollution to mask some of the temperature rise which will then occur when the pollution is removed.  If true the longer we delay taking action the more the effect will build. Snookered

 

Don

 

Hadn't heard that, but very concerning.

 

 

[Compound2632]

This isn't a topic I take likely but it has to be said that a good big volcanic eruption - approaching the scale of Mount Tambora - could act as a short-term break on global warming, but only very short term. Long enough, perhaps, for the asteroid to get us...

[Nearholmer]

Other threads deal well with the doom and gloom, and denial, that damage to our environment induces, but to continue here for a moment ...... I’m with Don: The mess called B****t does feel very like fiddling while Rome burns.

 

On your trackplan: I still think that the truly distinctive feature of the original is the ‘in’ and ‘out’ roads for the warehouse, and that you are in danger of submerging/losing that.

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

On your trackplan: I still think that the truly distinctive feature of the original is the ‘in’ and ‘out’ roads for the warehouse, and that you are in danger of submerging/losing that.

 

Not sure how I'd achieve that

[Nearholmer]

I’m out at the edge of a damp footy pitch, so no paper and pen to hand ...... i’ll Sketch later.

 

(hope my comment didn’t cause offence)

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m out at the edge of a damp footy pitch, so no paper and pen to hand ...... i’ll Sketch later.

 

(hope my comment didn’t cause offence)

 

No, not at all.  First, I tend to agree that our current National Obsession rather gets in the way of tackling the Big Issues, though how leaving a significant power bloc helps us influence world change in that regard will remain to be seen.

 

Second, I just do not have the profundity of understanding of prototype arrangements to get very far working things out like adapting the BC track plan for myself!  So, if I don't respond positively to a suggestion it's probably because I don't know how to! 

[Hroth]

10 hours ago, nick_bastable said:

I rather like this and apologies to the council for my late reply but have spent the day digging a ditch and lining it with Punji sticks  followed by extracting  venom from angry cats which actually took the most time

 

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I cannot help feel that some amplification would be both interesting and enlightening. 

 

Probably in preparation for when the toys are completely thrown from the pram and the canvassers hove into view.  Amplification would, perhaps, result in Too Much Information.

 

In order to lighten the mood, I would like to table the following item that I encountered on the BBC website.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-49604745

Make of it what you will! 

 

Back to PC business.

 

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Thanks, Don.

 

Yes, I see that I have made it look like that.

 

That feature is a carry-over from the Barnard Castle prototype plan. 

 

 

It looks, to me, as if this is not intended to be a loading dock, but simply the raised level of the platform fitting around the spur.  The spur should of course be longer than the longest loco, and there would seem to be ample room. 

 

Applying your point, it strikes me that items such as loco coal or ash wagons could be parked at the end of this spur until it is convenient to remove them, so perhaps the spur should be long enough to have a couple of wagons at the end as well as accommodating a loco? 

 

I have intended the cattle dock road to have the loading bank, for side and end unloading, and to have the crane, as this seems to have been the arrangement at Barnard Castle. 

 

 

 

 

A nice trackplan and modification thereof.

I shall file it in my "things to explore" binder in anticipation of the Broad Sunlit Uplands, wherever they are, and whenever they may be!

 

[unravelled]

3 hours ago, Donw said:

Rather more worrying to me is the suggestions that the high level of fossil fuel burning produces sufficient pollution to mask some of the temperature rise which will then occur when the pollution is removed.  If true the longer we delay taking action the more the effect will build. Snookered

 

Don

There was an interesting programme at least 10 years ago, (possibly Horizon), which discussed the monitoring of solar energy reaching the Earth's surface. On the two no-fly days post 9-11, there was a measurable increase in temperature, which declined again when flying restarted. Suggesting that air travel reduces global warming. I had heard this somewhere else before the program, and was interested by the suggestion. Of course it may have been reinterpreted as an error, but this new report makes me wonder.

 

Btw, regarding the trackplan, wouldn't reversing the release crossover simplify operation? As drawn, the train will have to shunt back a considerable way before the loco is able to use it.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

(Long time lurker...)

[Nick Holliday]

There's an interesting and inspirational document available on line showing the Barnard Castle Conservation area.  Not much on the station itself, but a slightly different ersion of the OS map on page 12, and a wealth of detailed studies of some very interesting buildings which might help someone trying to relocate Castle Aching a ew miles further north.

https://www.aenvironment.co.uk/downloads/conservation-area-appraisals/barnard-castle-conservation-area-appraisal.pdf

I liked one of the pictures in the document which, at first sight, appears to show an early railway station immediately alongside the castle walls!

 

[Nearholmer]

Continuing from earlier, and sticking with topological equivalents of what i’m Suggesting, rather than nice curvaceous drawings of what might actually get built ....  

 

A - The really interesting operating method that I think was probably used at the warehouse. A queue of wagons on the inbound road, pulled forward into the shed, then shoved back into the outbound road once dealt with. It’s very efficient, but would keep a horse busy.

 

B - possible overall arrangement. Having the crossover near the platform a very long way back from the stops was a very common arrangement, because, once running around I’d complete, it allows the coaches to be stored at the platform, in a way that doesn’t interfere with running around a subsequent goods arrival. The long neck after the crossover can be used to store the odd spare coach, horse box, carriage truck etc.

 

Hope this is digestible good for thought.

 

Kevin

 

 

[Annie]

4 hours ago, Donw said:

It looks good to me. The only question I have is it looks as through the access to the turntable is via a loading dock so I would want to ensure there was sufficient room for the largest vehicle to use the dock and the largest loco likely to run  to both fit in and still allow the turnout to operate.

 

Don

Seems to me though Don that's one of those odd quirks sometimes found in prototype track plans where working the yard involves some thinking and forward planning in order to achieve success.

[Edwardian]

4 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

There's an interesting and inspirational document available on line showing the Barnard Castle Conservation area.  Not much on the station itself, but a slightly different ersion of the OS map on page 12, and a wealth of detailed studies of some very interesting buildings which might help someone trying to relocate Castle Aching a ew miles further north.

https://www.aenvironment.co.uk/downloads/conservation-area-appraisals/barnard-castle-conservation-area-appraisal.pdf

I liked one of the pictures in the document which, at first sight, appears to show an early railway station immediately alongside the castle walls!

 

 

It is a fine town, indeed an embarras des richesses; if modelling it, I wouldn ot know where to start. or to stop,

 

4 hours ago, unravelled said:

regarding the trackplan, wouldn't reversing the release crossover simplify operation? As drawn, the train will have to shunt back a considerable way before the loco is able to use it.

 

Dave

(Long time lurker...)

 

Yes, I had realised that; it looked more fun to do it that way.

 

Nearholmer's comment below, however, adds some point to it, and I should clearly move the crossover far enough down the platform to store some coaches. 

 

Now where is this line?  Well, let's keep that vaguely somewhere in the North Riding-County Durham borders.  Let's say it's a branch off a part of the old S&D empire dating from the 1850s.  Let's also suppose that, once over the river, the line divides; one line heading for a junction with the mainline, the other, a later addition, say 1870s, heads up dale as a subsidiary branch to the small town of Dalehead, or some such.

 

Worsdell Bros' fine, clean-lined modern locomotives have been around for nearly 15 years, but few have penetrated the hinterland of the old S&D so far, so there would be a need not just for Fletcher designs, but Bouch and McDonnell. 

 

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Continuing from earlier, and sticking with topological equivalents of what i’m Suggesting, rather than nice curvaceous drawings of what might actually get built ....  

 

A - The really interesting operating method that I think was probably used at the warehouse. A queue of wagons on the inbound road, pulled forward into the shed, then shoved back into the outbound road once dealt with. It’s very efficient, but would keep a horse busy.

 

B - possible overall arrangement. Having the crossover near the platform a very long way back from the stops was a very common arrangement, because, once running around I’d complete, it allows the coaches to be stored at the platform, in a way that doesn’t interfere with running around a subsequent goods arrival. The long neck after the crossover can be used to store the odd spare coach, horse box, carriage truck etc.

 

Hope this is digestible good for thought.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

This I like, and it may well be the correct alternative. It seems dependent upon horse shunting, however.

 

I wonder then, if my plan amended in light of earlier comments might be easier to loco-shunt.  Of course, that might not have been likely, and my idea might not be particularly prototypical.

 

It does, however, allow the loco to be released.

 

 

What is the purpose of the circled run-round?  How would it operate?

 

A goods train could enter the warehouse siding and pause before Turnout A.  The locomotive could draw forward of Turnout A and run round, allowing it to propel the train into the warehouse.

 

This could be done using the platform road and the round-round loop, as will have to be the case at Castle Aching, but a separate yard loop allows the platform road and loop to be used at the same time, though I'd probably have to make some room at the right-hand end of the goods loop to prevent an engine running round from fouling the platform road. 

 

Wagons would need to be drawn back along the  the running line in order to propel them into the other two sidings, however, because, as at CA, there is no headshunt.

 

Possibly I'm talking nonsense,  

[Edwardian]

Back to Norfolk, though, perhaps, closer to a scene on the Liverpool & Manchester.

 

Good news, after a month of waiting, today the Alan Gibson 10-spoke wheels ordered for the Norfolk Minerals' wagons have arrived.  As soon as I get a moment I can now finish these wagons.

 

It turns out that AG had none in stock, so had to make a batch.  So, anyone in need of 10-spoke wagon wheels, now is your moment!

 

The 'Break' van has my standard choice of 8-spoke/split spoke wheels, so these I had 'in stock'.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

The trouble with the ‘green ring’ option is that wagons on their way out of the warehouse, if left on the road near the cattle pens, will get in the way of other work.

 

Having a reserved ‘in’ and a reserved ‘out’ road for the warehouse avoids warehouse traffic getting in the way of anything else.

 

its just struck me that early NE railway engineers probably laid things out like this because it is exactly how a riverside coal-drop is laid out, and it allows a very good throughput of wagons. It works really well if the track goes slightly downhill into the co-drop (or warehouse), because in-bound wagons can then be gravitated, and oh-bound (always empty; always light) are the only ones that need a horse to shift them.

 

If the early goods sheds in the area were “bottom exit”, the parallel with a coal-drop becomes even clearer.

 

I’m so exercised about all this, because I think you may have stumbled-upon a long-outmoded way of designing and operating a goods facility, which could set a layout based on this location apart from all the many layouts inspired by what became standard practice ...... it could become a “signature feature”, if you’ll pardon the phrase.

 

BTW, didn’t these early NE goods sheds get used as “drops” for things like lime, sand, manure etc? I’ve got dim memory of a cutaway drawing, probably in one of the “Early Railways” conference proceedings, showing things quite unlike the “parcels and boxes” goods shed of later years.

 

 

[runs as required]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

It is a fine town, indeed an embarras des richesses ...

• Going back to that fine conjectural restoration of the castle, it looks like a fine (earlier) Edwardian row of detached villas are facing onto the east walls of the castle across the HorseMarket.
• B C is the one place more than any other (apart from CA ) where, it seems, one is bound to bump into one of the peripheral Royals snatching a week-end away. 

dh

[Northroader]

How to start and stop with Barnard Castle? As a former denizen of a loco works which could send its newly overhauled products up there on a trial trip, the correct procedure was jump down once the loco was stabled on the turntable of station no. 2, over the wall, down the road, into the Red Well, and a swift pint or so with your mate til the driver whistled he’d got the road back home, then swift return up the road and jump on the loco. It’s a lovely town, I remember it well.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

How to start and stop with Barnard Castle? As a former denizen of a loco works which could send its newly overhauled products up there on a trial trip, the correct procedure was jump down once the loco was stabled on the turntable of station no. 2, over the wall, down the road, into the Red Well, and a swift pint or so with your mate til the driver whistled he’d got the road back home, then swift return up the road and jump on the loco. It’s a lovely town, I remember it well.

 

 

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Having a reserved ‘in’ and a reserved ‘out’ road for the warehouse avoids warehouse traffic getting in the way of anything else.

 

its just struck me that early NE railway engineers probably laid things out like this because it is exactly how a riverside coal-drop is laid out, and it allows a very good throughput of wagons. It works really well if the track goes slightly downhill into the co-drop (or warehouse), because in-bound wagons can then be gravitated, and oh-bound (always empty; always light) are the only ones that need a horse to shift them.

 

Like this?

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

If the early goods sheds in the area were “bottom exit”, the parallel with a coal-drop becomes even clearer.

 

I’m so exercised about all this, because I think you may have stumbled-upon a long-outmoded way of designing and operating a goods facility, which could set a layout based on this location apart from all the many layouts inspired by what became standard practice ...... it could become a “signature feature”, if you’ll pardon the phrase.

 

Point taken.

 

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

BTW, didn’t these early NE goods sheds get used as “drops” for things like lime, sand, manure etc? I’ve got dim memory of a cutaway drawing, probably in one of the “Early Railways” conference proceedings, showing things quite unlike the “parcels and boxes” goods shed of later years.

 

 

 

That takes us back to North Road, doesn't it, the S&D abandoning dropping warehouse goods to  lower road level in 1833.

 

But, the S&D and NE generally most often dropped coal and lime, the latter give the option of a roofed portion f the drops. 

[Buhar]

I prefer the design of the top one, James, although I might just be attracted by the better drawing .

 

I think you need to think a bit about which side you will operate from and consequently the coupling system you employ (if the latter has been announced in the Parish Record my apologies for missing it).  With the station environs opening up so tastefully, there may be a reach issue when shunting.

 

It looks very believable; understated but interesting.  I hope you still retain the embankment idea for photographs.

 

Alan

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, Buhar said:

I prefer the design of the top one, James, although I might just be attracted by the better drawing .

 

I think you need to think a bit about which side you will operate from and consequently the coupling system you employ (if the latter has been announced in the Parish Record my apologies for missing it).  With the station environs opening up so tastefully, there may be a reach issue when shunting.

 

It looks very believable; understated but interesting.  I hope you still retain the embankment idea for photographs.

 

Alan

 

The bottom drawing is Nearholmer's suggested arrangement.  The upper drawing is my attempt to include on the layout plan, which has been flipped to face the forecourt facade of the station buing to the front.

 

As to your question as to from which side it would be operated, shall we say the rear, i.e top of the picture?

 

I think that makes this a plan for an exhibition layout .... 

 

It will need much tweaking; still trying to work out the basics.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, that's what I was driving at.

 

Before committing, you might want to test others' interpretation of the original plan, the map extract, to see whether they read it the same way as I am. I'd hate to browbeat you down a path, only for you to find out later that it was the wrong one.

 

BTW, I had a disappointment and an excitement shopping-wise this afternoon. Went to nearby market town to make a "last hour" visit to their small, but rather nicely formed, model railway exhibition.

 

As I got out of the car, I spotted a bike outside a charity shop, not just any bike, but a particular, rather sought-after, bike that I've been looking to acquire, in splendid condition, bar one dud tyre ...... is it for sale, or merely "shop dressing"?  I ask ....... "Sorry, I just sold it to this chap." says lady at counter. In conversation with said chap, I learn that he is rightfully cock-a-hoopies, having paid less than half of a sensible price. That was the disappointment. 

 

The excitement was that, at the exhibition, in a dusty old box containing mostly really ordinary books, I found a copy of something called "Rapier on Railway Signals", which turns out to be a bound copy of an 1874 paper to the Inst of CE, giving a detailed history of fixed signalling to date, and a run-down of current best practice (lock and block, but bear in mind this is fifteen years before they became a legal requirements), with lots of diagrams. Being a formal paper, it includes verbatim report of all of the discussions after it was presented, with contributions from signal engineers who remember, because they engineered them, the very first fixed installations in the 1830s and 1840s, and who add anecdotes. One engineer talks about being with HMRI Colonel Yolland when he tested, and found massive flaws in,  one of the very the first  interlocked lever frames.  This I secured for "next to nothing".

 

Now, the book doesn't make up for the bike, but it does look very good and, once I've read it properly, I should be able to make more informed contributions about archaic signalling and track layouts.

 

One thing it does discuss is the topic of facing points on running lines, and those present are arguing that point-locking technology has now come far enough to allow a more nuanced approach to this than the very strict prohibitions that were being applied at the time, and they highlight the restrictions in effective line capacity that these prohibitions impose. Its a sort of primitive cost-benefit analysis in the making. Another thing that it illustrates with graphs is that traffic levels on the major railways, passenger and goods, were increasing at 5% per annum cumulative or more, and had been doing so for c15 years ....... rich times.

 

[Donw]

10 hours ago, Annie said:

Seems to me though Don that's one of those odd quirks sometimes found in prototype track plans where working the yard involves some thinking and forward planning in order to achieve success.

 

True Anne but it is a handy place to park a passenger brake which has been removed from an incoming train.  That is what I had in mind. However James has suggested it would not be used like that.

Don

[Edwardian]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

 

Before committing, you might want to test others' interpretation of the original plan, the map extract, to see whether they read it the same way as I am. I'd hate to browbeat you down a path, only for you to find out later that it was the wrong one.

 

Well, the prototype track plan has been available to interpretation for a couple of days now, and no one seems to have disagreed with your interpretation.  This leads to the dizzying possibility that there might be a course of action that commands majority support! 

 

Given you said "I still think that the truly distinctive feature of the original is the ‘in’ and ‘out’ roads for the warehouse, and that you are in danger of submerging/losing that", I hardly think that you can now seek an extension of time to consider alternatives ....

 

.... you've made you ditch and you must lie in it!

 

However, if anyone has any views on what arrangement this map may actually show, nevertheless please feel free.

 

 

Quote

 I found a copy of something called "Rapier on Railway Signals", which turns out to be a bound copy of an 1874 paper to the Inst of CE, giving a detailed history of fixed signalling to date, and a run-down of current best practice (lock and block, but bear in mind this is fifteen years before they became a legal requirements), with lots of diagrams. Being a formal paper, it includes verbatim report of all of the discussions after it was presented, with contributions from signal engineers who remember, because they engineered them, the very first fixed installations in the 1830s and 1840s, and who add anecdotes. One engineer talks about being with HMRI Colonel Yolland when he tested, and found massive flaws in,  one of the very the first  interlocked lever frames.  This I secured for "next to nothing".

 

Now, the book doesn't make up for the bike, but it does look very good and, once I've read it properly, I should be able to make more informed contributions about archaic signalling and track layouts.

 

 

It seems to me that this qualifies you to be head of the WNR's Signal & Telegraph department. 

 

S&D equipment:

 

Looks like a Stevens route indicator.

 

 

And a signal; the red 'pennant' I believe swivels and disappears from view edge-on, indicating "clear".

 

 

9 hours ago, Donw said:

 

True Anne but it is a handy place to park a passenger brake which has been removed from an incoming train.  That is what I had in mind. However James has suggested it would not be used like that.

Don

 

I just meant that I hadn't intended it as a loading dock.  No reason why it cannot be used to park a Passenger Brake; if this would be operationally convenient, it can be done.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Edwardian

[Annie]

Always very pleased to see ancient signalling devices James, - so thanks for posting those.