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Toms LNER Workbench - Experiments in Teak and Lining


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16 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

 

Absolutely beautiful Tom! The two blues and the silver look so gorgeous together - very tempted to build some myself when I see pictures like that...

Well Chas, we just need some kind soul to create the etches for the sides and ends.... then offer West Riding Ltd, Coronation and spare, and most likely 3D printed ends for the beaver tail!

 

id be in for a set or two...

Edited by grob1234
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3 hours ago, micklner said:

Worsley Works have 4mm etches for the West Riding Set

 

Oh so they do! Quite a few interesting bits there as well looks like they’ll make up etches as well. 

 

Thanks very much Mick.

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I'm a little wary of the Worlsey ones as I have found that the Gresley teak etches are the wrong shape ends and the sides are about 1mm too small height-wise.

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11 hours ago, Bucoops said:

I'm a little wary of the Worlsey ones as I have found that the Gresley teak etches are the wrong shape ends and the sides are about 1mm too small height-wise.

Worsley do not list any Gresley Teak Coaches ??

 

He is very helpful , I am building some D&S NER Clerstory Coaches at the moment, they all had missing Roofs , he has supplied amended Roofs from his range of NER Coaches to fit onto them. I had sides only, for one NER Coach and he has supplied ends and partitions as well for that one .

 

If he ever did Teak Gresleys?, I am sure he would replace the incorrect items.

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On 12/11/2020 at 08:46, micklner said:

Worsley do not list any Gresley Teak Coaches ??

 

He is very helpful , I am building some D&S NER Clerstory Coaches at the moment, they all had missing Roofs , he has supplied amended Roofs from his range of NER Coaches to fit onto them. I had sides only, for one NER Coach and he has supplied ends and partitions as well for that one .

 

If he ever did Teak Gresleys?, I am sure he would replace the incorrect items.

 

They seem to have been removed now. I raised the issue December last year. I've not chased recently as I know etching companies are way behind.

 

The MJT cast ends have been measured as correct. RDEB are too big (left side) and Worsley the roof profile is wrong and dips down too low:

 

1353553597_WorsleyandMJTandRDEB.jpg.754c5fccb5e766734770ccc6ade74da5.jpg

 

The sides are too low - you can see a strip all along the bottom:

 

407258077_IsinglassSide.jpg.e656e6b27e2f9a7e4c1d0064e6bbce15.jpg

 

I've only just noticed there's a discrepency on where the doors are as well.

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31 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

They seem to have been removed now. I raised the issue December last year. I've not chased recently as I know etching companies are way behind.

 

The MJT cast ends have been measured as correct. RDEB are too big (left side) and Worsley the roof profile is wrong and dips down too low:

 

1353553597_WorsleyandMJTandRDEB.jpg.754c5fccb5e766734770ccc6ade74da5.jpg

 

The sides are too low - you can see a strip all along the bottom:

 

407258077_IsinglassSide.jpg.e656e6b27e2f9a7e4c1d0064e6bbce15.jpg

 

I've only just noticed there's a discrepency on where the doors are as well.

How confident are you that the drawing is correct?

Frank

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52 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

How confident are you that the drawing is correct?

Frank

 

Fairly - I think the prototype sides should be 6' 5 5/8" to the underside of the cornice? No sure what tolerance they were built to. My maths with feet and inches isn't great but that's very nearly 25.9mm in 4mm scale?

 

Way back when I first found it I did some measuring. Measured when flat, the Worsley sides are 24.5mm, when rolled they obviously lose a bit of height.

 

 For reference, measured flat:


Comet Side: 25mm

RDEB 26.5mm

MJT 25.5mm

 

So none of them measure up exactly but RDEB is again too big, Comet and MJT in the middle somewhere with MJT being closest.

 

If ALL my coaches were from the same source I wouldn't mind but not all diagrams I need are available from one place so it's proving a lot of work to try and get them to look the same :(

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The drawings are a sod to work measurements out from as they don't ever give a single dimension for the height of the side and all the ones I have start vertical measurements from the bottom beading.  I reckon you're about right, though, I worked it out as 6' 5 7/8".

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1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

 

Fairly - I think the prototype sides should be 6' 5 5/8" to the underside of the cornice? No sure what tolerance they were built to. My maths with feet and inches isn't great but that's very nearly 25.9mm in 4mm scale?

 

Way back when I first found it I did some measuring. Measured when flat, the Worsley sides are 24.5mm, when rolled they obviously lose a bit of height.

 

 For reference, measured flat:


Comet Side: 25mm

RDEB 26.5mm

MJT 25.5mm

 

So none of them measure up exactly but RDEB is again too big, Comet and MJT in the middle somewhere with MJT being closest.

 

If ALL my coaches were from the same source I wouldn't mind but not all diagrams I need are available from one place so it's proving a lot of work to try and get them to look the same :(

I should have been more specific.  I was questioning the window and door positions more than the height of the sides.

 

Frank 

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5 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

I should have been more specific.  I was questioning the window and door positions more than the height of the sides.

 

Frank 

 

Ah, sorry. Can't be certain on that at all. I would trust a GA more for that.

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1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

So none of them measure up exactly but RDEB is again too big

 

Speaking to Rupert about how we both draw stuff and he draws at something like 10mm to the foot then rescales the drawing for 4mm/7mm etc.  I wonder if some innaccuracies can creep in there ?

 

I only do 4mm so draw to the size I want. on the one occasion where I wanted a loco I'd done in 4mm rescaled to 7mm I ended up doing a complete redraw as it just didn't work scaling it up.

 

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1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

The drawings are a sod to work measurements out from as they don't ever give a single dimension for the height of the side and all the ones I have start vertical measurements from the bottom beading.  I reckon you're about right, though, I worked it out as 6' 5 7/8".

As you say very difficult to determine and I spent too many hours trying to work everything out. First of all there are two different heights of the sides depending on whether the body is resting on rubber pads on the underframe or not. 6'5 7/8" is the correct height of the body sides including the cornice where no rubber pads have been used (the cornice is 2 1/2"). For bodies with the rubber pads there is a 7/8" gap and the sides are reduced accordingly.

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4 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Speaking to Rupert about how we both draw stuff and he draws at something like 10mm to the foot then rescales the drawing for 4mm/7mm etc.  I wonder if some innaccuracies can creep in there ?

 

I only do 4mm so draw to the size I want. on the one occasion where I wanted a loco I'd done in 4mm rescaled to 7mm I ended up doing a complete redraw as it just didn't work scaling it up.

 

 

It wouldn't surprise me it was something like that - it's ruddy annoying as the actual design works really well, but there are all sorts of etch mask errors which I've documented elsewhere and it's too big :(

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20 hours ago, jwealleans said:

The drawings are a sod to work measurements out from as they don't ever give a single dimension for the height of the side and all the ones I have start vertical measurements from the bottom beading.  I reckon you're about right, though, I worked it out as 6' 5 7/8".

 

As I believe Jonathon and one or two others know, around this time last year I delved into the question of "correct" side height too (plus beading positions), arrived at figures matching those quoted by Mike Trice, and then carefully scanned, measured and compared sides on various Gresley teak vehicle models. I was dismayed at just how poor and variable some brands were, elderly Kirks for instance, as compared to say MJT or modern Hornby (even if the latter are marred by the incorrect curvature of the side). Bill Bedford's 3D prints for the earlier Howlden vehicles seemed to me to be about right too, and I've ended up rather tediously moving all of the cornices on some D & S vehicles I built some years ago in order to conform with my new knowledge of what is right!

Even the overall side height on the old Margate "Gresley style" vehicles seemed surprisingly accurate, although so much else about them is wrong. It's interesting that some of their "superior" contemporaries had the wrong side height...

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Tangential to the main question here, but is the height of the GNR Gresley roof profile known, for comparison with the above two diagrams? I'm sure it is taller than the LNER group standard version.

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21 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

I got fed up keep trying to determine the vertical heights from the GA's so ended up producing the following reference:

2067192445_gresleyheights.jpg.c08e147986eca53937bbe3ec1860d601.jpg

 

 

Thanks for posting this Mike - very useful indeed!

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17 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

Overall height of GNR equivalent is 12' 8 5/8" (compared to LNER 12'6") with the roof being 2' 2 1/8" high.

 

Did that cause any gauging issues on grouping? I know some locos were given shorter chimneys and lower cabs etc. to bring them into the LNER gauge which was smaller than the GNR one?

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