IoW light rail conversion proposed

[Zomboid]

Can something that happened 50 years ago really be described as short sighted? Obviously the problem has not only just arrived, but no one here can really say what the UKs transport needs will be in 2066. Or even 2046, for that matter.

 

The mistake was in making it near impossible to reinstate the railway, rather than closing it in the first place. Not safeguarding the land has proven to be very misguided in many cases since the axe was wielded.

[Derekstuart]

The Americans, so I'm told, had a policy of closing but protecting a lot of lines for the reasons you outline. Very sensible.

 

I'm sure you are aware though that beeching was employed by ernest marples- minister of state for transport and part owner of the (then) world's biggest road building company, marples-ridgeway. He didn't want to see the railways re-opened. Ever. As they would be a challenge to his business empire. It wasn't enough to save BR money, he had to destroy the railways. Don't forget that under pressure from opposition parties and joe public the government went for the lesser of beeching's report. His other report wanted to close the ECML and WCML too, effectively severing England and Scotland and I believe Wales was to lose all of its lines. BTW scrap steel from BR that was sold cheap to m-r has been found in several London based motorway structures, but no one has ever identified any sales from BR to them.

 

It is a shame that he achieved all that before fleeing the Country in the middle of the night from charges of fraud, corruption, bringing office into disrepute, tax evasion.

 

Apologies for the mini hijack but some people may not be fully aware that beeching was not just about cost saving but also the deliberate destruction of competition to m-r.

 

The mistake was in making it near impossible to reinstate the railway, rather than closing it in the first place. Not safeguarding the land has proven to be very misguided in many cases since the axe was wielded.

 

 

Trevor,

 

thanks for the reply. I don't live on IoW so I'm only going based upon what others have written on the subject. What I mean is that if people are coming from several locations and going to several destinations, all travelling down a 'corridor' it does not automatically mean that duplicating that corridor with a train/tram is going to achieve any result if people are already coming from further afield in a car. Again, I don't know, only trying to understand it.

[Trevellan]

Quote "Can something that happened 50 years ago really be described as short sighted?"

 

Interestingly, I've heard this view from senior rail people, that forecasting is not a fine art and the Beeching recommendations could not have foreseen a future need for closed lines. You are right though, the real crime was not taking a national decision to preserve the former alignments in their entirety. Some still exist in part, of course, as public rights of way, but many have been lost for ever to Britain's detriment.

 

Reflecting my post on another thread, the British problem is a tendency to view railways as a liability rather than a strategic national asset and a key part of the country's infrastructure. The Isle of Wight is actually a microcosm of a national problem which is still not fully understood.

 

EDIT: My response crossed with yours Derek. No, the railway - in whatever form - will not replace the need for private transport, but it can help by providing an option for certain trips.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Trevellan

[Derekstuart]

I suppose of course that that my question might have been irrelevant in the 1960s anyway. Now people are travelling A to D via B and C- in which case running a train B to C is pointless on its own, but perhaps in 1960s more people were going only B to C.

 

If there was the political will to rebuild the IOW network, it could be done. After all, look at HS2 and the compulsory purchase and "tough ****" attitude that is prevailant here.

 

EDIT: My response crossed with yours Derek. No, the railway - in whatever form - will not replace the need for private transport, but it can help by providing an option for certain trips.

[IWCR]

Ryde  to  Shanklin  was  retained  in  1966  following  the  enquiry  to  determine  the  Island  lines  fate,  total  closure  had  been  proposed.

At the  time  Summer  foot  traffic  on  the  Ryde  Ferry  was still  very  high  particularly  on  Saturdays  (traditional  holidaymaker  Change  Over day),  it  was  identified  that the  roads and  buses  to  the  principal  holiday  area of  Sandown  &  Shanklin would  not  be able  to  cope.

Foot  passenger  traffic  numbers  were  falling  however  and  BR  anticipated  that the  line  could  be closed  within  a  few  years.

 

BR  actually  acquired  sufficient   Underground  stock  to  operate  to  Ventnor  and  Cowes  in  case  these  were  to  also  remain  open,  a  diesel  electric  conversion  was  intended.  This  stock  was held  at  Micheldever  then  scrapped  once  the  line  closures  were  confirmed.

 

Now  50  years  later  the  line  is  still  carrying  a  good  number  of  passengers,  (still  very  seasonal)  but  has  suffered from  minimal  maintenance,  now  having  reached  the stage  where  just about  everything  is  life  expired  at  the  same time.

 

Closure  is  not  an  option  in  the  Franchise  document  and  just  leaving the  existing  system  "as  is"  and  carrying  on  with  the  patch  up  and  mend  it  is  unlikely  to  last through  the  next  Franchise.  The  stock  is  nearly  80  years  old  and  whilst  Ryde  St  Johns  depot  do  an  excellent  job  keeping  it  going  they  are running  out  of  solid  material  to  weld to.   

 

The  line  remains  part  of  South  West  Trains  for the  next  Franchise  period  and  this  franchise  is  out  for  tender  now.

Clearly  investment  and  renewals  are  desperately  needed,  what  will actually  happen  is  down  to  whoever  wins  the  franchise,  this  will  be  known  along  with  their  intentions  next  February.

 

Extensions  to  the  line  would  not  be  cost  effective  at  this  time,  in  the  future?  who  knows?

If  Portsmouth  ever  gets  its  Tram  network  a  Tram  tunnel  to  Ryde  and  conversion  to  a  Tramway  could  be  viable  though  expensive.  Extensions  to  Newport  and  Ventnor  may  then  be  realistic.

 

 

Pete

[lmsforever]

Did the powers that be not continue to Ventnor because of the need to put in an extra sub station and the DFT refused because of cost a big mistake I think Ventnor would have brought more passengers. 

[IWCR]

Yes  Ventnor  would  have  required  an  additional  substation,  but  a  problem  was  the  Electricity  supply  was  inadequate  at  the  required  location  and  a  dedicated  high  voltage  feed  would  have  been  required  (approx  5  miles  pole  route).

By  this  time  Electrification  had  been  chosen  for  the  Ryde  Shanklin  line,  (rumoured  to  be  from  an  overorder  of  3  substations  for  the  Bournemouth  Electrification)

BR  were  prepared  to  do  this  and  reopen  the  Ventnor  section  if  the  IW  Council  paid  for  the  additional  substation  and  feeder.

This  was  deemed  to  expensive  to  fund.

Ventnor  suffered  badly  with the  loss  of  the  railway  and  took  many  years  to  recover,  indeed  some  say  it still  hasnt.

 

Pete

[Edwin_m]

Can something that happened 50 years ago really be described as short sighted? Obviously the problem has not only just arrived, but no one here can really say what the UKs transport needs will be in 2066. Or even 2046, for that matter.

 

The mistake was in making it near impossible to reinstate the railway, rather than closing it in the first place. Not safeguarding the land has proven to be very misguided in many cases since the axe was wielded.

I think one mistake (then, before and since) was to consider the railway in isolation and not as part of an integrated public transport network.  Another was not to realise that the technical developments that allowed buses to do the job of many trains were also making car use much more attractive, leading to increasing traffic congestion which destroyed the advantage of the buses in many cases. 

 

If these had been taken into account we could have had a German or Swiss type of network where buses operated as rail feeders in areas of low congestion, naturally with times and fares to connect with trains and advertised as such.  With this approach some railways would have survived that otherwise didn't, because the local buses would have been re-organised to complement rather than complete and this would feed trunk traffic onto rail.  In other cases rail closures would still have gone ahead but the communities no longer on the rail network would still have a good way of reaching it. 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Edwin_m

[Joseph_Pestell]

It has already been explained that the main road between Ryde and Shanklin becomes very congested and the the parallel rail route provides a useful alternative. Therefore, the decision to retain that section of line was pragmatic rather than odd. A move to more frequent and evenly spaced tram operation would enhance its utility.

 

What we have seen in recent years is a substantial increase in traffic congestion on former rail alignments (Ryde-Newport-Cowes), making even local journey times unpredictable. The shortsightedness of those 1966 closures is now being demonstrated almost daily. Unfortunately, a push for sustainable tourism was three decades away and the principle is also being revived in local authority policy.

 

We now have a Task Force on the island, headed by no less a luminary than Christoper Garnett, which is set to address a number of problems. For example, Newport is being choked by traffic and badly needs a relief road, as well as a re-think about access in general. It could also benefit from at least two Park & Ride hubs similar to those serving Salisbury.

 

In short, lots of problems and no easy solutions, despite some of the bigoted and misguided comments earlier in the thread.

 

By all means have some Park & Ride. But don't take Salisbury as your exemplar. It is a deeply flawed project.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Ventnor Station was very poorly located relative to the town. With a light-rail conversion, it might be possible to serve the town centre much better than the railway ever did for passengers.

 

I wonder too if there is a lack of back-to-basics thinking about Island transport. The ferries run to/from Ryde because that was convenient for the railway companies. Perhaps, in this day and age, the ferries could be running elsewhere.

[Trevellan]

Ventnor Station was very poorly located relative to the town. With a light-rail conversion, it might be possible to serve the town centre much better than the railway ever did for passengers.

 

I wonder too if there is a lack of back-to-basics thinking about Island transport. The ferries run to/from Ryde because that was convenient for the railway companies. Perhaps, in this day and age, the ferries could be running elsewhere.

 

The location of Ventnor station was dictated by geology. The town is effectively split into four distinct tiers: the esplanade and beach at sea level, the town centre higher up, then upper Ventnor where the old station was located and above that another tier which is also known as upper Ventnor to the locals, although the official name is Lowtherville.

 

As you may know, Ventnor station occupied the site of a former quarry and in terms of gradients and access was the only practical solution. These days there is a half-hourly bus service in each direction which stops close by and there are other services provided under contract to the Town Council which could have augmented the main bus service.

 

Ryde is still an important traffic objective and East Cowes, West Cowes and Yarmouth all have regular ferry services. New operators have come and gone, unable to generate sufficient traffic to cover significant overheads. For example, one such operator started a West Cowes to Portsmouth service, which was potentially useful. However, they lacked sufficient capital to keep the service going long enough to build a decent customer base. The current situation is therefore an amalgam of historic precedent and basic economics.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The location of Ventnor station was dictated by geology. The town is effectively split into four distinct tiers: the esplanade and beach at sea level, the town centre higher up, then upper Ventnor where the old station was located and above that another tier which is also known as upper Ventnor to the locals, although the official name is Lowtherville.

 

As you may know, Ventnor station occupied the site of a former quarry and in terms of gradients and access was the only practical solution. These days there is a half-hourly bus service in each direction which stops close by and there are other services provided under contract to the Town Council which could have augmented the main bus service.

 

Ryde is still an important traffic objective and East Cowes, West Cowes and Yarmouth all have regular ferry services. New operators have come and gone, unable to generate sufficient traffic to cover significant overheads. For example, one such operator started a West Cowes to Portsmouth service, which was potentially useful. However, they lacked sufficient capital to keep the service going long enough to build a decent customer base. The current situation is therefore an amalgam of historic precedent and basic economics.

 

That is rather my point. Perhaps too much historic precedent and not enough analysis of where current demand might be better served. For instance, all three car ferry terminals are at mainland locations which are quite difficult to access by road.

 

The economics question is altogether a harder one. How much is the Island's economy held back by the excessive ticket prices on the ferries (particularly vehicles)?

[hayfield]

Its a great pity that we cannot have a transport version of the National Trust,What we have is a unique working transport system dating back to the nineteenth century. Lets have a railway trust to run, maintain and preserve it for all

 

Having gone back to the island 10 years ago for a holiday it seems to be in a time warp, tourism is something that will help the economy of the island and it seems to me that if both railway systems on the island were integrated in would not only save the islands railway heritage, but become a year round attraction as well as a railway transport system for the inhabitants. Yes it would need public finance support, but if done well would not only be a great tourist attraction but give much needed local employment opportunities. Park and ride from the mainland, combined rail and ferry tickets would keep traffic off the island

 

Whilst it is totally different I went on the Bernina Express in Switzerland last year, they have both the Panoramic tourist trains and the local trains running together, why not do the same with public and heritage trains on a unique system 

[lmsforever]

Interesting comments about Beeching and his draconian plans plus the crooked activities of Marples doesn't it show that people in power should not be trusted with our future.If new rolling stock was made available just who would build it it would only be a small order and could be not cost effective so any ideas how this could be overcome?

[phil-b259]

Ventnor Station was very poorly located relative to the town. With a light-rail conversion, it might be possible to serve the town centre much better than the railway ever did for passengers.

 

However there are plenty of examples of poorly sited stations on the main railway network that still do good business (particularly if they have a half decent train service.

[Suzie]

The Island is one of those places that needs a bold plan.

 

A rail tunnel Portsmouth Harbour - Gosport - Ryde followed by reinstatement of Cowes West to Newport and a new link from Somewhere between Cowes west and Newport to Wooton should make for a very effective system that would have very high utilisation. Even a parkway station at Ventnor would be more helpful than having to travel further for a station.

 

The potential for freight that a tunnel would bring (including car transport from the island to a mainland terminal handy for the motorway) would surely make a huge difference to the viability of the rail network if reliable fast turnaround of containers or swap-bodies could be managed. Even a long siding from Smallbrook Junction could see Tesco Ryde being rail served!

 

If the trains and electrical equipment are in need of replacement then going 25KV will only need a single substation for the whole island and power can probably be sourced from the mainland via the tunnel. Dual voltage stock might make sense if through running to London is going to happen and that will allow some 3rd rail to remain in ye olde tunnels if clearance is a problem (it should not be expensive to make sufficient DC locally from the 25KV supply!)

 

There can be no doubt that running through trains will make a lot of rail travel a no-brainer and will be the thing that will significantly reduce the need for car ownership on the island let alone car use. 12-car sets splitting in to Cowes, Newport and Ventnor sections at Smallbrook and Whippingham should please 95% of the passengers.

 

Road improvements will still be required, but getting public transport passengers on to trains will eliminate a lot of congestion in key places. The current cost to the islanders of ferries, congestion etc. will almost certainly make the project viable (if done economically) it is just over how long the payback will be. I guess that the Yarmouth - Lymington ferry would be the only one worth retaining if a road vehicle shuttle is implemented.

[Joseph_Pestell]

"Bold" or perhaps even "courageous" as Sir Humphrey would have it.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The Island is certainly a special case and I don't think that it is useful to have it lumped in with the South West franchise. Local control would be much better.

 

With regard to potential rolling stock, new build could be tacked on to an order (or built to same design) as something for elsewhere in the world. It does not need a "one-off". And there must be the possibility of some secondhand metro/light-rail stock from elsewhere than London.

[IWCR]

The  only  viable  way  to  run  this  line  currently  is  as  part  of  a  larger  franchise.

If  a  stand alone  set  up  under  local  control  it   would  need  subsidising  to  operate.

The  local  council  has   no  money,  indeed  may  not  be  able  to  set  a  legal  budget  for  its  statutory  services  next  year. 

No  chance  of  any  discretionary  cash.

Any  direct  government  money  would  not  be  long  term.

 

No  money  for  new  stock  (and  hasnt  been  for  over  as  century)

Second  hand stock  from  anywhere  is  constrained  by  the  very  tight  loading  gauge  with  no  money  to  rebuild  structures  for  a  larger  clearance.

 

Pete

[roythebus]

What IWCR says is with some authority as he has been on the board of the steam railway for a number of years.

 

The Board of the steam railway has already stated it does not want to get involved with the running of the main railway (if that is the right terminology) but will co-operate to ensure the continuation of the services with whoever runs it. I forget the exact wording that was used, it was either in a copy of Island Railway News or the AGM paperwork.

 

There would be a huge problem getting any railway round or through Newport as all the traditional formations have all but vanished; any connection at Wootton is a non-started due to the notorious clay problems there, a major reason the line was abandoned in the first place. That clay still gives the steam railway problems today.

 

There is no longer a cheap or easy answer to the island's railways.

[lmsforever]

Unfortunately only having one car ferry service to the island is not a good idea,its not just cars that come over ,all of the goods sold on the island come by lorry as you would see if you travelled on them,On some crossings to Lymington I have seen all of the car deck occupied by lorries and rail cannot cover a third of this traffic so leave the ferries as they are and just upgrade the current line and provide new stock with a frequent service .

[Suzie]

A single ferry service to the island is a disastrous idea if there is no alternative, but with a tunnel it will be more than adequate as an alternative for the far end of the island.

 

If the Skye bridge can be built for £39 million (at 1995 prices) to serve a population of just ten thousand (about £3900 per head) then surely it must be possible to justify spending £700 million (allowing for inflation) on a tunnel to the Isle of Wight today. If a return journey costs £10 that is only 70 million journeys need to be made to get the money back - any more and it will be in profit! Assuming around nine million ferry journeys per year that makes for a eight year payback period, but something tells me a properly connected rail tunnel might be a tad more popular than the current offering. The channel tunnel has seen an increase of cross-channel traffic from 35 million to around 40 million (that figure might be a bit old) in the face of low cost air competition. Air is not likely to be a big issue on the island.

 

Any reduction in the heavy rail capability will have a negative affect on the usefulness of a mainland tunnel so light-rail and tram conversion needs to be opposed. The relatively short distances involved in reinstating key bits of rail infrastructure between Wooton, Newport and Cowes should not be a deal breaker if they are taken as a small part of a big project. This is just the sort of infrastructure project that the government should be taking on to boost the national economy, let alone the local one.

[Suzie]

p.s. If turbostars will fit the current island loading gauge, then Southern's 377 dual voltage Electrostars should fit as well if they can be persuaded to turn left at Portsmouth! Electrostar is a pretty standard product so it should not be difficult to procure a few when the line is ready.

[frobisher]

p.s. If turbostars will fit the current island loading gauge, then Southern's 377 dual voltage Electrostars should fit as well if they can be persuaded to turn left at Portsmouth! Electrostar is a pretty standard product so it should not be difficult to procure a few when the line is ready.

Mind you, wasn't it an Electrostar that was experimentally fitted with batteries (albeit an AC one)? If they could be charged on DC, then you'd only need to maintain a section of third rail at each terminus, so no worrying about clearances for catenary et al.

 

Mind you, aren't there 507/508s sitting disused at the moment? You must be able to assemble some decent units from what's there.

Edited August 19, 2016 by frobisher

[Derekstuart]

£700 million to build a tunnel under the Solent?

 

That is government speak for £17 billion no doubt.

 

I doubt they could even design it for £700 million.