IoW light rail conversion proposed

[t8hants]

As nobody seems to like them, I believe the Island should become the home of the national fleet of Austerities.

Coaching stock would be a recreated fleet of four wheelers, avoiding all problems with tight curves.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The article link just given, plus many other comments on here about the suitability or otherwise of existing stock, led me to think about Talgo, which has the vehicle length and height restriction capable of use on the Island Line, I would surmise. We normally associate them with high speed, or at least InterCity types of operations, so I got excited when I found out they were working on a project for the LA Metro......but it seems just as a management consultant and not, according to their own website, about a new design of commuter/local train. Pity.

 

Nonetheless, there are many metro systems in Europe replacing their older stock currently. There must be something out there that might suit. I hope SWR have not confined their search to the UK.

 

Pity that no one came up with that idea before.  Spain scrapped some of its older Talgo trains a few years ago now.

 

Paris must be on the way to replacing the 77(?) stock on Lines 9 & 13. Should be ideal for IoW: narrow, with tapered ends. I recall suggesting this on another forum.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Titan]

One thought about the D-stock - may apply to others too, is that it might be quite easy to solve the stepping distance problem at Ryde. D-stock has four doors per side, which is more than necessary for the IoW service. On one side isolate/remove the two middle doors, on the other side remove/isolate the two end doors. As I doubt that the stock would ever get turned, that should sort the stepping distance problem.

 

If the problem is at more than one station with curvature in different directions, then I suppose the stock could be wired for two door open buttons. one for middle doors, one for end doors. Then one or other, or both could be used as appropriate.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Titan

[russ p]

Didn't BR propose reducing the height of some 2MTs 2-6-2t for the island before going down the electric route?

These would have probably ended up being rail blue too!

[PhilJ W]

I think we can forget about the 'D' stock being used in any way shape or form on the Island Line. The 'tube' equivalent of the D stock, the 1983 stock was put forward for possible use on the Island Line and was rejected. One of the main reasons was the single leaf doors which were considered unsuitable for the requirements of the line.

[sem34090]

In all seriousness, what would prevent the successful use of Ivatt 2MT's on the Island line, with the appropriate infrastructure provided? If the loop platform at St Johns was reopened and connected at the pier end, then a 1938 stock shuttle could operate from there up onto the pier, hence reducing the weight on the pier. Platforms 1 & 2 at St Johns could then be remodelled to incorporate a loop to permit running round. The second line at Shanklin could be reinstated for the same purpose. Engineering and overhaul facilities are already available on the Island at Havenstreet, and fuelling/watering facilities could be installed with relative ease.

 

The D78 stock proposed is (ISTR) 11ft 1ins in height, so how does a 2MTT or 2MT 2-6-0 compare?

 

The use of steam would bring in further tourism, increase line usage, offer improved comfort and amenities for regular travellers, allow easier revenue inspecting/selection and remove the need to maintain any electrical apparatus. Only one extra staff member would be required per train, and this is perhaps the greatest issue as recruiting a few firemen wouldn't be easy. That said, with the promise of employment I suspect some IOWSR volunteers would transfer.

 

Any serious thoughts on this? Or have I missed something major?

[009 micro modeller]

Why are single leaf doors bad? I could see why they wouldn't work on the tube at rush hour but surely the passenger numbers on the Island Line are much smaller?

[Joseph_Pestell]

In all seriousness, what would prevent the successful use of Ivatt 2MT's on the Island line, with the appropriate infrastructure provided? If the loop platform at St Johns was reopened and connected at the pier end, then a 1938 stock shuttle could operate from there up onto the pier, hence reducing the weight on the pier. Platforms 1 & 2 at St Johns could then be remodelled to incorporate a loop to permit running round. The second line at Shanklin could be reinstated for the same purpose. Engineering and overhaul facilities are already available on the Island at Havenstreet, and fuelling/watering facilities could be installed with relative ease.

 

The D78 stock proposed is (ISTR) 11ft 1ins in height, so how does a 2MTT or 2MT 2-6-0 compare?

 

The use of steam would bring in further tourism, increase line usage, offer improved comfort and amenities for regular travellers, allow easier revenue inspecting/selection and remove the need to maintain any electrical apparatus. Only one extra staff member would be required per train, and this is perhaps the greatest issue as recruiting a few firemen wouldn't be easy. That said, with the promise of employment I suspect some IOWSR volunteers would transfer.

 

Any serious thoughts on this? Or have I missed something major?

 

Why 2MTs? There are 10 Terriers preserved and they would not have loading gauge issues.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Didn't BR propose reducing the height of some 2MTs 2-6-2t for the island before going down the electric route?

These would have probably ended up being rail blue too!

 

I recall the VoR locos in rail blue. NOT pretty.

[PhilJ W]

Why are single leaf doors bad? I could see why they wouldn't work on the tube at rush hour but surely the passenger numbers on the Island Line are much smaller?

A lot of the passengers from the ferry have a lot of hand luggage and as TfL found out narrow doorways impede those with large amounts of luggage. This was on the Piccadilly line sevices to Heathrow where this became a problem. A partial solution was to enlarge the vestibles at the expense of a number of seats.

[009 micro modeller]

A lot of the passengers from the ferry have a lot of hand luggage and as TfL found out narrow doorways impede those with large amounts of luggage. This was on the Piccadilly line sevices to Heathrow where this became a problem. A partial solution was to enlarge the vestibles at the expense of a number of seats.

Didn't think of that - a lot of the summer traffic is people going on holiday, with big cases etc.

 

Didn't BR propose reducing the height of some 2MTs 2-6-2t for the island before going down the electric route?

These would have probably ended up being rail blue too!

Now there's an interesting 'might have been' modelling idea. Imagine if they'd survived long enough to be painted in NSE livery - even better/worse (delete as appropriate).

Edited May 11, 2018 by 009 micro modeller

[Christopher125]

I think we can forget about the 'D' stock being used in any way shape or form on the Island Line.

 

Everything suggests that's the solution being proposed - SWR have confirmed replacement stock won't be new, various stakeholders have been to Long Marston to see them, and Adrian Shooter has confirmed that "they fit" but can't say anything more. I see no obvious alternatives, especially if Battery/Diesel/Hybrid operation is being proposed.

[Mark Saunders]

Can you imagine the fuss if this stock was to be used in London but the IoW has to make do with cast offs again!

[Titan]

Can you imagine the fuss if this stock was to be used in London but the IoW has to make do with cast offs again!

 

Firstly, it was used in London, and secondly, the Piccadilly Line is making do with older stock to boot. Don't recall Londoners making much fuss about that!

[jjb1970]

In all seriousness, what would prevent the successful use of Ivatt 2MT's on the Island line, with the appropriate infrastructure provided? If the loop platform at St Johns was reopened and connected at the pier end, then a 1938 stock shuttle could operate from there up onto the pier, hence reducing the weight on the pier. Platforms 1 & 2 at St Johns could then be remodelled to incorporate a loop to permit running round. The second line at Shanklin could be reinstated for the same purpose. Engineering and overhaul facilities are already available on the Island at Havenstreet, and fuelling/watering facilities could be installed with relative ease.

 

The D78 stock proposed is (ISTR) 11ft 1ins in height, so how does a 2MTT or 2MT 2-6-0 compare?

 

The use of steam would bring in further tourism, increase line usage, offer improved comfort and amenities for regular travellers, allow easier revenue inspecting/selection and remove the need to maintain any electrical apparatus. Only one extra staff member would be required per train, and this is perhaps the greatest issue as recruiting a few firemen wouldn't be easy. That said, with the promise of employment I suspect some IOWSR volunteers would transfer.

 

Any serious thoughts on this? Or have I missed something major?

 

Steam locomotives are labour and maintenance intensive which means expensive, and I think there'd be some pretty major problems if you wanted to re-introduce steam as a regular commercial source of power because of environmental regulations.

[Mark Saunders]

Firstly, it was used in London, and secondly, the Piccadilly Line is making do with older stock to boot. Don't recall Londoners making much fuss about that!

 

It was used in London has nothing to do with these trains being cast offs, would most Londoners actually notice the shuffling of trains from one line to another; I doubt it!

[sem34090]

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/third-ryde-tube-transfer-troublesome/

 

A very interesting article, with equally interesting comments.

[Mike Storey]

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/third-ryde-tube-transfer-troublesome/

 

A very interesting article, with equally interesting comments.

 

I think this is the same article as linked in post 198?

[roythebus]

Merseyrail 507/508s would be the answer. they're just as obsolete as everything else proposed. Or maybe those awful nodding donkey things, the Leyland National railbuses that plague "the north"?

[rodent279]

Didn't think of that - a lot of the summer traffic is people going on holiday, with big cases etc.

 

 

Now there's an interesting 'might have been' modelling idea. Imagine if they'd survived long enough to be painted in NSE livery - even better/worse (delete as appropriate).

I think they'd look rather good in blue with arrows actually. Surprised no one had tried it.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The single leaf doors on tube stock are a lot wider than the doors on mainline railway stock (Mk 1 less than 2' wide). People still used to travel on those with holiday luggage.

 

Piccadilly Line to Heathrow is rather different with short dwell times at each stop. On the IoW, single leaf doors are not going to be a big issue.

[009 micro modeller]

I think they'd look rather good in blue with arrows actually. Surprised no one had tried it.

I actually quite like the Rheidol locos in blue, particularly when they had the polished metal double arrows rather than just painted. Not sure sectorisation liveries would work on steam though.

[PhilJ W]

I actually quite like the Rheidol locos in blue, particularly when they had the polished metal double arrows rather than just painted. Not sure sectorisation liveries would work on steam though.

Better than privatisation liveries such as an A4 in Virgin colours.

[russ p]

I can't remember where I read about the 2MT proposal possibly backtrack .

When the IoWSR got a 2MT I wondered whether that proposal was behind it .

Would be good to see one in blue for a season!

[rodent279]

I actually quite like the Rheidol locos in blue, particularly when they had the polished metal double arrows rather than just painted. Not sure sectorisation liveries would work on steam though.

Yes, me too, certainly when clean the blue did suit them. Why we have to pretend that it never happened I don't know, they must have spent 15 yrs or so in blue, so a fair chunk of their working lives, and just as valid as BR green.

Edited August 25, 2018 by rodent279