C&L Finescale

[hayfield]

Just an observation and not a criticism or call to action, but I put an order through for over £200 on Sunday and have yet to even recieve an acknowledgement

 

I know the 'solution' to this is for me to call, email, chase, etc. but I feel like a beat is being missed by C&L here - it will certainly make me less likely to order again, even if everything is perfectly fine with the order otherwise.

 

 

Do phone Phil as there may well be still some issues with the email and or ordering system

 

Phil also phoned me to say the first test shots of the new track base have been done, should be in production soon with availability planed for Warley

[martin_wynne]

Just an observation and not a criticism or call to action, but I put an order through for over £200 on Sunday and have yet to even recieve an acknowledgement

 

I know the 'solution' to this is for me to call, email, chase, etc. but I feel like a beat is being missed by C&L here - it will certainly make me less likely to order again, even if everything is perfectly fine with the order otherwise.

 

Hi William,

 

The web site does currently say:

 

Due to technical difficulties I am unable to do any administration work within the website this includes stock numbers, pricing and the printing of orders from 19739 dated 21-09-2018.

I do have a work round on these orders which can be placed as usual and follow the same payment process, but it is essential that you call me during my normal office hours with your order number.

 

(My bold)

 

It is an unfortunate fact that Phil seems to be completely out of his depth with IT systems. The web site has never worked properly since his takeover. It would be much better to remove online ordering than to have a broken system. A simple product list and printable order form for ordering by post would serve him much better. Others work that way, e.g. Markits.

 

Martin.

[Lacathedrale]

Martin, I have to agree - I got to his site by googling components which takes me straight to a category page - which I'm sure many other people to do too - I've never typed the URL into the address bar and so never hit that front page.

 

Every time I've spoken to Phil he's been very kind and helpful, considerate and friendly - but ultimately he is not doing me a favour, I am paying him money for a product. I think there is a very morally grey area when I can freely send hundreds of pounds and then the onus is on me to chase it up.

 

No other website would permit orders to be submitted and paid for if they had no way to fulfill them.

[Junctionmad]

Hi William,

 

The web site does currently say:

 

Due to technical difficulties I am unable to do any administration work within the website this includes stock numbers, pricing and the printing of orders from 19739 dated 21-09-2018.

I do have a work round on these orders which can be placed as usual and follow the same payment process, but it is essential that you call me during my normal office hours with your order number.

 

(My bold)

 

It is an unfortunate fact that Phil seems to be completely out of his depth with IT systems. The web site has never worked properly since his takeover. It would be much better to remove online ordering than to have a broken system. A simple product list and printable order form for ordering by post would serve him much better. Others work that way, e.g. Markits.

 

Martin.

The solution is to pay someone to replace the website , there are loads of simple, cheap e-commerce solutions out there

 

The solution is not to go back to 18 century post

[martin_wynne]

The solution is to pay someone to replace the website , there are loads of simple, cheap e-commerce solutions out there

 

The solution is not to go back to 18 century post

 

The solution is for Phil to find a system which he is comfortable with. So that he is still there happily supplying a very niche product to loyal customers in 10 years time. It is very obvious that he is not in a happy place at present.

 

No-one else (you?) is prevented from setting up a super-slick online track parts supplier if they wish to.

 

Martin.

[Vistisen]

Martin It's hard to be a 'loyal customer' when you can't get to buy things. I live outside the UK. I cannot buy at shows. I work during the day and cannot ring several times on international calls before getting through. Snail mail is slow and expensive Each enquiry would cost several pounds and take more than a week. If there were no website I would not be even be able to see what products it is that I want to order.

I not sure if Phil has appointed you to be his loyal defender. But the simple fact of the matter is that for precisely this type of company with many stock items and many relatively small orders containing many rows but low quantities for each of them that computers are a major help in both in organising stock and orders.

 

To say that anyone who dares to criticise can just start a rival company is to put it bluntly Stupid. Just imagine if that was Southern railway’s approach to customer complaints.” If it annoys you that our trains are late or cancelled start your own bl**dy railway”

[Junctionmad]

Of course the reality is Martin is that another person HAS started an alternative track supply business. It’s worth noting they are putting their efforts into a good online presence

 

We live in today’s world and today’s world expects better communication , expects to transact over the internet , expects good service

 

Otherwise you can become the best buggy whip supplier in the wold

 

The net outcome of business chaos is failure afraid , sooner or later

 

I’ve said it before , a proper online real time stock ordering system would help Phil immensely , removing order chasing , not having to manage partial orders , wrong payment amounts etc

 

Turning your face against that is nonsense

Edited October 19, 2018 by Junctionmad

[RichardS]

The solution for Phil might be to ditch IT and revert to pencil and paper. Example: Branchlines who seem to do alright and keep going without a web-site and online sales.

[martin_wynne]

I agree that it is difficult to be a loyal customer in the present situation.

 

But it's no good saying Phil should suddenly become IT savvy when he is clearly out of his depth in such matters.

 

There does seem to be a mind-set nowadays that if someone has something that you want, you have the right to get hold of it easily. It is not mandatory for Phil to supply track parts, he could go fishing instead. Given that the track parts are currently in his possession, it is for your to comply with his terms if you want to get hold of them.

 

That may of course mean that he has very few customers, and may ultimately finish trading completely. But that is his decision. He may actually prefer that to the nightmare of trying to make sense of a computer screen, and having to dash to the post office every single day.

 

It's not stupid to say that anyone can set up and start supplying track parts. I did exactly that in the 1970s and did it for 10 years. I stopped in part because I got fed up with exactly the attitude I mentioned above, that some folks (not all) assumed they had some sort of right to the stuff I was making.

 

Martin.

[Junctionmad]

 

 

There does seem to be a mind-set nowadays that if someone has something that you want, you have the right to get hold of it easily. It is not mandatory for Phil to supply track parts, he could go fishing instead. Given that the track parts are currently in his possession, it is for your to comply with his terms if you want to get hold of them.

as  the " quip" goes 

 

This would be a great business if it wasn't for the customers.

[RBAGE]

I agree that it is difficult to be a loyal customer in the present situation.

 

But it's no good saying Phil should suddenly become IT savvy when he is clearly out of his depth in such matters.

 

There does seem to be a mind-set nowadays that if someone has something that you want, you have the right to get hold of it easily. It is not mandatory for Phil to supply track parts, he could go fishing instead. Given that the track parts are currently in his possession, it is for your to comply with his terms if you want to get hold of them.

 

That may of course mean that he has very few customers, and may ultimately finish trading completely. But that is his decision. He may actually prefer that to the nightmare of trying to make sense of a computer screen, and having to dash to the post office every single day.

 

It's not stupid to say that anyone can set up and start supplying track parts. I did exactly that in the 1970s and did it for 10 years. I stopped in part because I got fed up with exactly the attitude I mentioned above, that some folks (not all) assumed they had some sort of right to the stuff I was making.

 

Martin.

Sorry, can't bite my tongue any longer.

We do owe Phil a great deal for continuing a business that may well have gone to the wall. However, Phil is running a business that he expects will ultimately benefit himself and not just his customers. He is not a charity or some benevolent society whose sole focus is to satisfy customer wants and needs.

That said, Phil cannot achieve his objectives without customers and as such, Phil owes something to his customers.

This poor business performance with regular reference to improved IT has been going on for more than 18 months and the situation seems no better. To blame these persistent failings on customers who are subject to the demands of a sellers market, brought on by the business failings, is ridiculous. The frustrations experienced by a failure to provide a consistent supply of product from this business is not the fault of customers and their reaction a borne out of this frustration and not by an feeling of entitlement.

Lets face it, Phil needs his customers more than they need him. I suspect that if there was a ready and equivalent alternative, we would not be discussing customer entitlement and Phil's business would have ceased trading, long ago. 

[PenrithBeacon]

...

 

It is an unfortunate fact that Phil seems to be completely out of his depth with IT systems. The web site has never worked properly since his takeover. It would be much better to remove online ordering than to have a broken system. A simple product list and printable order form for ordering by post would serve him much better. Others work that way, e.g. Markits.

 

Martin.

I think it's fair to say that not many people feel content with IT systems but it's also true that a web presence is essential today. I feel that Alan Gibson and Markits have a valid approach to this matter for a non-expert ie a pdf file listing which the non-expert can keep up-to-date which completely eschews the complexity of an on-line ordering system. AGW takes cheques, Markits doesn't, but he has an ordering form on which you can quote a card. From experience Markits only puts the money through as the order is posted and AGW cashes cheques very much later, sometimes after I've forgotten about them!

 

The AGW/Markits approach seems to me to be the one that is much more appropriate to a small trader than a full blown web ordering system which is an expensive resource both in terms of time and money spent on it.

[Lacathedrale]

I am in the field so it may not be a fair comparison to an average joe, but I was able to set up a full catalogue website with categories, related items, bundles, stock level and inventory tracking, automatic invoicing, paypal integration, etc. for free, within an afternoon - this isn't rocket science. That isn't to imply that Phil should do it, but that it is a common thing for people to need to do and paying someone to set something up would only be a few hundred pounds.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[Lecorbusier]

I think its fine to have a good old moan ... I also think constructive suggestions are useful.

 

But at the end of the day a private business venture is just that. You find a product and take it to market and succeed or fail dependent upon both the product and your ability to sell it.

 

So .... its Phil's business and he can run it however he wishes and there is not much anyone can do about that. If he fails to run it to a customer's satisfaction, they can obviously seek to influence .. or take there business elsewhere. Beyond that they have no real say up until the point that the law is contravened. 

 

I am pleased that Phil is supplying something which I might need. I might think he is pretty rubbish at selling ... but from my standpoint until there is a robust viable alternative I certainly wouldn't want to make him think the grief is not worth it ... as then I would have no supply at all.

 

....as all too recently happened with Falcon Brass .... as a hobby we are always very vulnerable once a much appreciated 'cottage industry' as of necessity has to change hands.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[hayfield]

Martin, I have to agree - I got to his site by googling components which takes me straight to a category page - which I'm sure many other people to do too - I've never typed the URL into the address bar and so never hit that front page.

 

Every time I've spoken to Phil he's been very kind and helpful, considerate and friendly - but ultimately he is not doing me a favour, I am paying him money for a product. I think there is a very morally grey area when I can freely send hundreds of pounds and then the onus is on me to chase it up.

 

No other website would permit orders to be submitted and paid for if they had no way to fulfill them.

 

 

William

 

I may be mistaken but I believe you pay Phil when you telephone him

 

Its a website he inherited, Phil is taking professional advice about a new website he can administer but as a small business he does not have endless funds. For instance two codes of rail have had to be replaced which means both taking up sizeable amounts of working capital, plus the 00 gauge track base has had to be replaces (this should have been done years ago). Phil rightly is prioritising the important things. With Exactoscale I cannon buy a lot of their items despite being a member of the EMGS and some of the items the EMGS do have in stock are dearer than the prices advertised by Exactoscale !!

 

I find the website the easy way Google C&L, takes you to the home page !!

 

Phil has left a message on the site asking customers after placing an order to give him a call, plus after his request  I have mentioned this on RMweb. I am getting to know how frustrated Martin gets when he has to repeat himself many times

 

Vistisen

 

Just PM me and I will try and assist 

[hayfield]

I agree that it is difficult to be a loyal customer in the present situation.

 

But it's no good saying Phil should suddenly become IT savvy when he is clearly out of his depth in such matters.

 

There does seem to be a mind-set nowadays that if someone has something that you want, you have the right to get hold of it easily. It is not mandatory for Phil to supply track parts, he could go fishing instead. Given that the track parts are currently in his possession, it is for your to comply with his terms if you want to get hold of them.

 

That may of course mean that he has very few customers, and may ultimately finish trading completely. But that is his decision. He may actually prefer that to the nightmare of trying to make sense of a computer screen, and having to dash to the post office every single day.

 

It's not stupid to say that anyone can set up and start supplying track parts. I did exactly that in the 1970s and did it for 10 years. I stopped in part because I got fed up with exactly the attitude I mentioned above, that some folks (not all) assumed they had some sort of right to the stuff I was making.

 

Martin.

 

 

Martin

 

I can see clearly why you gave up supplying track parts, glad I was not tempted.

 

How to make a small fortune selling track parts. Start with a big one  Opps that was said about buying football clubs !!

[26power]

Can you advise who?  Just for reference.

Of course the reality is Martin is that another person HAS started an alternative track supply business. It’s worth noting they are putting their efforts into a good online presence

[Joseph_Pestell]

No other website would permit orders to be submitted and paid for if they had no way to fulfill them.

 

Obviously not heard of a certain gentleman in Somerset.

[Lecorbusier]

No other website would permit orders to be submitted and paid for if they had no way to fulfill them.

Has the money been taken? It would be interesting to know. Normally the details will be taken but the card only debited once the items have been shipped ... I thought that this was the C & L protocol. 

[Lacathedrale]

You have the option/instructions to pay via bank transfer as part of the check-out process

[Pannier Tank]

Confusing!

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=17

[hayfield]

Welcome to the Model Railway Track Building Specialists - C & L Finescale Track Building Systems -
01-10-2018
Due to technical difficulties I am unable to do any administration work within the website this includes stock numbers, pricing and the printing of orders from 19739 dated 21-09-2018.
I do have a work round on these orders which can be placed as usual and follow the same payment process, but it is essential that you call me during my normal office hours with your order number. If you come across stock item reading zero please call me.
Apologies for the inconvenience caused, a new website is being worked on but currently do not have an implementation date.

 

Quite easy to understand and in large clear print on the website, on the first page when directed via Google

 

This is the important part

 

"but it is essential that you call me during my normal office hours with your order number"

Edited October 19, 2018 by hayfield

[Torper]

With all due respect to Phil, whom I know to be a very decent bloke, this IT saga has gone on for much too long.  As others have said, it isn't rocket science to build a working commercial website with a shopping cart system using PayPal.  I know - I've done it and I'm not an IT professional.  I really cannot understand the continuing delay, particularly as I understood that someone had been commissioned to upgrade the website some time ago - if that's the case, perhaps he should be encouraged to proceed with greater urgency or be replaced.  Certainly it will cost money, but surely any such expenditure at this stage will be more than offset by increased business and customer satisfaction?  Phil should also perhaps be mindful of the fact that his biggest potential competitor is likely to have a working website with a shopping system up and running within a matter of weeks.

 

DT

Edited October 19, 2018 by Torper

[Siberian Snooper]

 

No other website would permit orders to be submitted and paid for if they had no way to fulfill them.

Try searching Kits from Somerset, on here. There are several locked threads about the non products pervade by this company.

[martin_wynne]

I am in the field so it may not be a fair comparison to an average joe, but I was able to set up a full catalogue website with categories, related items, bundles, stock level and inventory tracking, automatic invoicing, paypal integration, etc. for free, within an afternoon

 

The fact that you or I, or any reasonably IT savvy person, could solve the problem in an afternoon is what makes it all so frustrating for everyone. But Phil isn't you or me or an IT savvy person. Otherwise we wouldn't have the situation where even the fact that "the web site is being worked on" has been going on for several weeks, never mind the 18 months of web failure before that.

 

It's clear that his best option would be to adopt the Markits system which is also used by several other small cottage traders. Put up a online catalogue only, and a printable order form to be sent in by post.

 

Even the question of exactly when payment is taken for goods seems to be confusing, and there is still no definitive answer on this from different customers. In Phil's situation it is essential that payment is not taken or cheque cashed until you have licked the stamps on the parcel. That way if anyone gets unduly stroppy, you can decline their order and return their cheque. You lose the profit on their order, but it's a fair price to pay for a bit of peace and quiet, and a chance to get on with your work.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.