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Compound2632

More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

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London Road Models have the ex D&S MR 20T six wheel Brake Van and MR Ballast Brake Van in the range.

 

https://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/various/wagons/

 

The LMS had a 40t bogie brake van but I don't think the MR had one of that weight, 20t was very much the maximum size in pre-grouping days.

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36 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

London Road Models have the ex D&S MR 20T six wheel Brake Van and MR Ballast Brake Van in the range.

 

https://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/various/wagons/

 

The LMS had a 40t bogie brake van but I don't think the MR had one of that weight, 20t was very much the maximum size in pre-grouping days.

 

25t for a post-WWI SE&CR brake, but, yes, your basic point is sound.

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Apologies yes - it was the LMS 40t brake van. I guess one would have to scratch/kitbash to make one...the picture is in LMS Wagons Vol 1 Bob Essery. Thanks

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18 minutes ago, reddo said:

Apologies yes - it was the LMS 40t brake van. I guess one would have to scratch/kitbash to make one...the picture is in LMS Wagons Vol 1 Bob Essery. Thanks

 

Jidenco/Falcon Brass used to do an LMS 40t brake van;

 

http://www.falconbrassworks.com/details.php?code=WK206

 

I don't think they're currently in production, but you might be able to find a secondhand example. Alternatively, scratchbuilding may be an option.

 

Andy

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10 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

Slaters - 10 : Mousa - 12

 

Though Slaters make all the common ones

 

 

@billbedford is being slightly modest here, since the way you count will depend on your modelling date. For  my c. 1902 date, the Slaters D298 cattle wagon is definitely unsuitable and the D362/3 covered goods wagons with oil axleboxes are pushing it a bit - volume production really started just a year or two later; the same goes for the D305 dropside wagon. The Slaters D390 brake van has oil axleboxes and the later style of side sheeting coming right down to the bottom of the curb rail, rather than the earlier style with visible horizontal framing (hence the white microstrip along the bottom of the sides of my tariff brake). On the other hand, some of the earlier Mousa etched brass wagons are after my period - the D302 open and D818 dropside (also the D663A in resin).

 

Much of Mousa's recent production has been of late 1870s/1880s wagons, which is ideal for my period. We now have complimentary D299s: 1880s build with 8A axleboxes (Mousa) and 1890s with Ellis 10A (Slaters) and complementary D305s: 1880s with sloped ends to the headstocks (Mousa) and 1898 onwards with standard headstocks (Slater's) - but make your own stop-blocks for the dropsides. There is of course a price differential between new resin printed kits and long-since amortised injection molded plastic kits: allowing for extras, between 2:1 and 3:2 Slaters:Mousa, depending on exactly which kits you are looking at.

 

In the Mousa pending list, the ones I wish Bill would really get cracking on are the D353 covered goods wagon and the pre-1905 D298 cattle wagon - both are common types for c. 1902 that have rather intricate outside-framed sides that are challenging even to think about bash from the Slaters D357 and D298 kits!

 

On the other hand, if you are modelling post-war LMS or early BR and want some ex-Midland wagons, the D362/3 covered goods wagon is really the only viable candidate from the Slaters range whereas the later Mousa D302/D663A opens and the promised D204/D607 coal wagons are pretty good bets. 

 

I have no intention of modelling a manure train - olfactory realism would be just too challenging. Although, I've rather a hankering for fish trucks - but that's passenger rated stock...

Edited by Compound2632
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Thanks Andy - I have send Falcon an email to enquire if they will reproduce it.

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Thanks Stephen - very interesting indeed. I am looking at the pre-grouping era and pre-war LMS only. I also found a copy of C Hamilton Ellis' The Midland Railway book and whilst only A5 in size is very entertaining indeed with his views on the culture of the MR and its' directors.

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Be warned that Falcon are pretty well moribund under the current proprietors.   The sorry history is all available in this forum, but essentially it's all on hold at best.   You may be lucky if they have an etch lying about.

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Just now, jwealleans said:

Be warned that Falcon are pretty well moribund under the current proprietors.   The sorry history is all available in this forum, but essentially it's all on hold at best.   You may be lucky if they have an etch lying about.

 

I understand that views have been expressed on the degree of challenge presented by the Jidenco/Falcon kits; I have no practical experience.

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That's a separate issue and it's hard to overstate the awfulness of some of the kits and associated instructions.

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Making a start on Linny's Billinton brake van - the prototype being mostly 10 ton vehicles (with a few 12 ton), complementing the SEF whitemetal kit which is, appropriately enough, for the heavier 6-wheeler. The body dimensions are very similar - my earlier thought had been to adapt the SEF kit.

 

I started off with the beading, glued on with slightly diluted PVA, applied with a brush - just enough to get it to flow a bit; too much water and the beading starts to swell out of shape:

 

823609185_LBSCGoodsBrakeSRD1568Linnykitbeadingetc.JPG.605599880c921cf5f1882ff3e205e309.JPG

 

I added the long handrails using the Mousa jig with an extra hole at 32 mm; the middle fixing was made from thinner wire as for the Kirtley brake. The pieces of verandah eves framing are rather fragile; I did break one off completely but it glued back in place happily. Whilst waiting for the beading to dry out thoroughly, I made a start on the underframe, I trimmed the edges of the axleguards and brake V-hanger at an angle to make them appear thinner, much as I do for a plastic kit. I also gently twiddled a 3 mm bit on the back of the bearing holes to provide a rebate for the bearings - a trial fitting showed that otherwise the axleguards would be splayed.

 

I've cut the footboard supports off the inner solebars and the springs and axleboxes off the outer solebars. For the latter I will use whitemetal components. I cut V-shaped grooves on the back of the outer solebars for brass wire supports for the footboards. 

 

Basic assembly was straightforward. The cabin end walls have a rebate to give a positive location for the sides. The trickier bit was making sure the ends were horizontal and the arc was lined up with that of the cabin walls - checked by rolling the upside-down body to and fro.

 

294412206_LBSCGoodsBrakeSRD1568Linnykitmainassembly.JPG.9e6033cca71679386cc759e41ceecb2c.JPG

 

The next thing to do will be the headstocks; these are thicker (as they should be) so need rebates cutting in the bottom corners of the side rails. 

 

The basic kit already gives a very good impression of the prototype. I need to work out what solebar detail I need - on the prototype I think the solebars are flitched with an iron or steel plate, so there are just boltheads except for the top ends of the footboard brackets. The footboards themselves I plan to make from Plastikard or Evergreen strip. I doubt I have much chance of getting Archer resin transfers to stick directly, so I'll not add these until after priming.

 

There are a number of things the kit as received doesn't provide for, most notably, brakes. Quite what goes on down below is a bit of a mystery but brake gear can probably be modified from spare bits for Slaters 10 ft wheelbase Midland covered goods wagons - the Billinton brake has 9'9" wheelbase. There should be a brake standard on both verandahs - I'll have to look out for a suitable casting. (I presume the guard would have to remember from which end he applied the brake in order to release it?) There are some interesting round-ended handrails for the doors - eight in all; I have in mind a jig for bending them up.

 

Incidentally, looking at the brake van chapter in Southern Wagons Vol. 2, I see that the Stroudley brake, that has a superficial resemblance to the Kirtley brake, has its double doors opposite each other, so they're near the RH end in one elevation and the LH end from the other side. It's interesting to read that Stroudley vans built around the same time as the Kirtley brakes lasted in service up to the grouping - a working life of 50 years - whereas the Kirtley vans were, I'm pretty sure, long gone by 1923.

 

 

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With headstocks in place and 5&9 Models LBSCR 4 ft springs in place, I think I've got as far as I can with the Billinton 10 ton brake van without ordering more bits:

 

2037242881_LBSCGoodsBrakeSRD1568Linnykitprogress.JPG.4f4ee7e20ba3d9d8472c972c22c79d1c.JPG

 

My shopping list for @5&9Models includes buffers and axleboxes - just trying to figure out which; the axleboxes I got for the cattle van were oil but this needs grease. There's a risk I might be tempted into buying another complete kit- I haven't got a Brighton covered goods wagon yet...

 

51L/Wizard do a lost wax pair of brake standards, intended for LMS tenders, that look as if they might fit the bill.

 

The tariff brake van has gained its lower footboards from the Slaters kit. The molding has the short upper footboard at each end, for the standard brake van. I've cut these away as the tariff brake has a long continuous footboard. Evergreen strip would be the ideal material for this but I haven't got the right size - a bit of experimentation shows I want 0.020" thick by 0.125". I tried doing this from Plastikard sheet but end up with a bit of a twist along the length. The same material will be wanted for the Billinton brake's footboards. I've drilled the holes for the doorhandles but am still working out the best way to represent them - I think they're T-shaped.

 

Inbetween whiles, I've been mulling over Midland crane match wagons. These come in two basic varieties, to drawings 826 and 847. The former covers match wagons used with hand cranes up to 5 tons capacity, either 4 or 6 wheeled. This type of crane often overhung at both ends, so match wagons came in pairs - one with a jib rest, the other with a recess in the end to accommodate the weight box. These wagons were built on the standard 14'11" over headstocks, 9'0" wheelbase underframe and had sides 1'8⅜” high - 3 planks. One such is very nicely restored at Butterley, though without its jib rest. 182 of these were built in the 1890s, enough for 91 cranes - so, a reasonably common sight around the Midland system. It would appear that many of these cranes were assigned to the Engineers, Way & Works, or Signal Departments. Some of these pairs of wagons may have replaced earlier dumb-buffered wagons of similar design. The Midland aquired a number of 10 ton 6-wheeled hand cranes from Cowans Sheldon in the mid 1870s; these had negligible weight box overhang and hence, it would appear, only jib rest match wagons.

 

From a modelling perspective, the most straightforward approach would be to start from a Slaters D299 kit, cutting the ends down to 3 planks, and scratchbuilding the sides. The tail match wagons might need completely scratch built ends as well.

 

The second variety of match wagon, to drawing 847, first appeared in 1891 as a single example to work with a 10 ton crane. This was a stretched version of the standard jib rest wagon, 17'11" over headstocks and 10'6" wheelbase. Fortunately, the Midland Railway Study Centre has made a copy of the drawing available. This drawing has various additions and annotations relating to the next batch of four, Nos. 114903-6, built in 1893 for the first batch of Cowans Sheldon 15 ton steam cranes, Nos. 25-28, including a note that the Loco Dept had provided a different design of jib rest and sketching in various brackets under the frame to carry the crane's stabilisation girders. A further one-off was built in 1899 for another 10 ton crane, then another batch of four, Nos. 116950-3 the same year for the second batch of 15 ton cranes, Nos, 29-32. These were built to another revision of the drawing, 847A, and incorporated equipment lockers under the underframe. A further one of this design, No. 117284, was built in 1901 for the final 15 ton crane No. 33.

 

The dimensions of these wagons don't match those of any other Midland wagons. My current thinking is that the best starting-point would be a Slaters cattle wagon underframe - 19'1" over headstocks, 11'0" wheelbase, with 2 mm taken out of the middle of the solebars and 1.3 mm trimmed off each end. The molded oil axleboxes would have to be replaced with MJT cast Ellis 10A grease ones and the brake gear trimmed to fit. The ends and sides would be as suggested for the standard jib match wagon.

 

Once upon a time the underframes of the Slaters Midland wagon kits were sold separately but these haven't reappeared along with the re-issued kits. I have a stash of the 9 ft wheelbase ones but none of the 11 ft wheelbase so a whole cattle wagon would have to be sacrificed to this project! I also need to have another look at my D&S kit...

 

Full details of the 15 ton steam cranes and their match wagons, with modellers' drawings of the Loco Dept's improved jib rest, are in a couple of articles by @Dave Hunt in Midland Record Vols. 2 and 6.

Edited by Compound2632
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D299 spotting at South Witham, c. 1894. Also three PO coal wagons, two of which at least are dumb buffered, including the one being unloaded into the cart. Any guesses on the name on the 4 ft deep one? Not a Midland horsebox - too many inspection hatches; Midland boxes only had one.

 

Another D299 at Attlebridge, along with its Great Northern cousin; but most interestingly, a LDEC wagon - a rare sighting in the wild - with its backward-sloping lettering which I read somewhere means it's a hired wagon. A couple of elderly PO wagons with rounded ends - Fosdick of Ipswich (whose daughter took to painting) with dumb buffers, and Bessey & Palmer of Great Yarmouth (handy listing of Norfolk businesses c. 1890 here).

 

A curiosity for Great Eastern covered goods wagon enthusiasts: Mundesley on Sea, probably c. 1898 - that is presumably one such in the yard but why does the end have th diagonal framing on the left only? Another Great Northern open and the wagon behind it being unloaded straight into a cart - probably coal.

 

This whole gallery is well worth a browse though it is feeding my growing addiction to wagon labels - fruit, for our Ayrshire readers?

 

Raising the tone a little, a well-known photo of the King at Saxby, previously discussed. Courtesy of the Midland Railway Study Centre (Item 18647) full details are now available.

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The horsebox in the S. Witham looks (unsurprisingly perhaps) just like an M&GN one. There are 4 panels but only the one nearest the drovers compartment opens for inspection. 

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

A curiosity for Great Eastern covered goods wagon enthusiasts: Mundesley on Sea, probably c. 1898 - that is presumably one such in the yard but why does the end have th diagonal framing on the left only?

There is a hint of a damaged/replaced plank on the lower RH side of the end. Maybe the diagonal has been removed temporarily? (But if so, why is there no bare wood showing?)

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4 minutes ago, Regularity said:

There is a hint of a damaged/replaced plank on the lower RH side of the end. Maybe the diagonal has been removed temporarily? (But if so, why is there no bare wood showing?)

 

One would think that replacement of a plank on an outside-framed van would be much more easily done from the inside, rather than by removing part of the framing. But maybe the van was the victim of a rough shunt violent enough to brake the diagonal timber.

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Thanks for putting that link in, Stephen, most informative. Makes me fancy another prototype to model, as if I’m trying to do too much, now, Ho hum.

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46 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One would think that replacement of a plank on an outside-framed van would be much more easily done from the inside, rather than by removing part of the framing. But maybe the van was the victim of a rough shunt violent enough to brake the diagonal timber.

Could be.

One thing for sure, no one is still around to tell us about this!

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I've done a bit more on the Drake & Mount wagons, the side knee outside washer plates and the door hinges and catches:

 

2034629001_DrakeMountsideswithironwork.JPG.95c2d6ff0926f7ea630c676f952512cf.JPG

 

0.030" (scale 2¼”) x 0.010" Microstrip for the washer plates and 0.040" (scale 3") x 0.010" Microstrip for the hinges. The J-shaped ends to the washer plates were built up from short lengths of Microstrip as for the Pelsall wagon. This was all done by eye relative to the scribed line of the door; I didn't get it quite the same every time. Some would have started again but that would have meant scribing a new length of planking.

 

The washer plates would be ⅜” thick iron, so the 10 thou Microstrip is double the scale thickness; I filed it down to closer to 5 thou. I then added a second layer for the hinges and catches - the latter have to overlap the washer plates and the hinges are made of thicker iron as they're the main structural member for the door - there's only a washer plate on the inside. In the frames captured from the film, the hinges are more prominent than the other ironwork:

 

1437405809_Bushey1897DrakeMountcrop(2).jpg.12aa7107fdba4a1e53c414fba4c30637.jpg

 

Nevertheless I filed them a bit thinner again. The hinge knucles are represented by short pieces of plastic rod.

 

Edited by Compound2632
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I've re-done the most glaringly "out" hinge - LHS bottom R. It was getting to me...

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Reviewing my goods wagon collection from 30+ years ago, I find that I have a MR 8T covered goods which looks a lot like my other Slater covered goods but with a roof hatch,

 

Checking Essery, I see that D358 has its roof hatch centarlly located and "lift off", whilst D359 has the hatch door over one of the side doors which Essery states was a sliding door, so I have a D359.

 

So which way does it slide, backwards or forwards or up and over (like L&Y ones?), so should there be a guide runners? Essery admits defeat at this.

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They're a mystery. All from part of one rather experimental lot of 220 covered goods wagons of 1892. Evidently they retained these hatches at the time the diagram book was prepared. The Midland Railway Study Centre's copy of the wagon diagram book (Item 88-1988-283/1) is undated but the companion carriage diagram book (Item 13368) is Dated March 1906. Although these wagons differed from previous covered goods wagons (D353) in being 6" and then 12" higher, they were still built to the same 1880 drawing No. 401. I've had a search through the Midland Railway Study Centre Carriage & Wagon Database using various search terms without finding any drawings that could relate to these roof doors or hatches. 

 

The real outcome of this experimental lot seems to have been the move to the longer 16'6" covered goods wagons with 10'0" wheelbase, D362. These were the only type of ordinary covered goods wagon built for the remainder of the 1890s. The 14'11" D357 wagons made a sudden and large-scale reappearance in 1903, apparently as a consequence of the halt in production of D299 open wagons - they presumably made use of underframe components in stock. This is a bit of a problem for my c. 1902 period as I really shouldn't have more than a very small handful of vehicles built from the Slaters D357 kit - there were fewer than 164 in traffic, the balance being made up of these mystery roof door wagons...

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My D359 just looks odd with the raised square on the roof and no detail allowing it to slide so without diagrammatic/photographic evidence, I may just perform some surgery and remove it by replacing the roof.

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23 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

My D359 just looks odd with the raised square on the roof and no detail allowing it to slide so without diagrammatic/photographic evidence, I may just perform some surgery and remove it by replacing the roof.

 

I have a similar speculative roof door on a Great Western van - in the absence of any information* I followed my nose and LNWR practice:

 

 

*Only the most followed, best studied railway in the world!

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@Compound2632 yes, my first inclination was to put runners on over the roof, having seen them on L&Y van photos and like you have done with the GW van you allude to. I can't really think of a compelling use case versus an open wagon with a tarp, so given the rarity of this type of van, I think mine will just get a re-roofing.

 

Thx for your input.

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