More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Andy Hayter]

12 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

GY is a Grimsby registration and probably a different boat.

 

My guess would be a Drifter chasing the Herring.  The season started in the Irish Sea went up through the Hebrides over the top of Scotland and then down the East Coast eventually ending around Great Yarmouth / Lowestoft.  As we have noted elsewhere, the fish wives (usually Scottish) followed on land doing the gutting and packing
.  

 

On reflection and closer examination, I don't think this is a drifter but rather a trawler.

 

I assumed drifter to explain a Glasgow registered boat so far from home.  However examining in detail, there is a boom running at the top of the hull from midships to the stern.  These were swung out (one each side) with a trawl net in the water.

[Compound2632]

I have to share this, from @Dave John's blog. Click through to the post for the punchline!

 

 

Edited May 10 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

I've commented recently on shows at which I was unable to buy any wagon kits. ExpoEM at Bracknell this weekend most definitely did not fall into this category! I have come way with quite a haul, including purchases of new kits from London Road Models and Pre-Grouping Models and samples of the new Meon Valley Models Midland wagons available through Brassmasters. Unfortunately any work on all these will have to wait until I've finished setting the next edition of Modelling the Midland... 

 

I also took delivery of a couple of boxes of second-hand wagons and kits and bits, a private purchase from an estate sale. All sorts of goodies there, including a large number of bits from Ratio LNWR wagons, mostly capable of being sorted out and reunited into complete wagons. As a taster from this treasure trove, a mystery wagon, iron-bodied but apparently timber-underframed:

 

 

There's another of the same, unbuilt, so I know it's from a Woodham Wagon Works whitemetal kit, described as "Robert Heath & Son Iron Open". I bit of Googling reveals that this firm were coal owners and ironmasters in Biddulph and Kidsgrove, fitting with the North Staffs orientation of a lot of the material from this estate sale, and indeed their home-built 0-4-0ST No. 6 is now preserved at Foxfield: https://knottycoachtrust.org.uk/robert-heath-no-6/.

 

There is no entry for this firm in the Lightmoor Index and as far as I can see the kit is not one now with either Roxey or @5&9Models (where's Chris' website gone?). So I wonder if anyone can supply any prototype information - maybe @burgundy himself; it's a bit out-of-area for his Brighton interests. 

[burgundy]

It certainly looks like WWW and it probably attracted my attention because of the oddity of its construction: most vehicles had a timber body and iron frames.

A bit of digging suggests that the drawing originated in an article by Bernard Holland in MRC March 1971, entitled "PO wagons of the North Staffordshire - 8". I seem to have a number of other North Staffs drawings, which suggests that I was in correspondence with someone with North Staffs interests, although the only other vehicle, that I know appeared as a kit, was a 2 plank merchandise.  Both would have appeared around the time that I moved from Woodham and migrated to the West Country, after which my casting activities more or less ceased.

I shall be interested to see what else turns up in the hoard. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[WFPettigrew]

45 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

"Robert Heath & Son Iron Open"

Stephen,

 

It is not dissimilar (but not identical either!) to the "wrought iron" bodied but dumb buffered NSR loco coal wagon supplied by "the ironmaster Robert Heath" - pictured on p69 of "North Staffordshire Wagons" (Chadwick/Wild Swan). 

 

Confusingly the PO wagon index at the back of said book (which in itself is also confusingly not laid out in alphabetical order) does not appear to make any mention of Robert Heath, at either Kidsgrove nor Biddulph.   

 

Best wishes

 

Neil 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

It is not dissimilar (but not identical either!) to the "wrought iron" bodied but dumb buffered NSR loco coal wagon supplied by "the ironmaster Robert Heath" - pictured on p69 of "North Staffordshire Wagons" (Chadwick/Wild Swan). 

 

Thanks, I've now had a look at that. It would be interesting to have confirmation whether or not Heath was building wagons of this type for his own use or only as loco coal wagons for the North Staffs.

 

14 minutes ago, burgundy said:

I shall be interested to see what else turns up in the hoard. 

 

These are the only Woodham kits in the hoard, or at least that part of it I purchased. The rest is mostly Ratio and Slaters, though there are some interesting others... 

[airnimal]

When I was at the AGM of the NSR society in February I took a copy of a couple of Robert Heath wagons from a book of photographs on one of the tables laid out with information provided by Mark Smith. I am sure Mark wouldn't mind if I post it here but I can remove it if need be. 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, airnimal said:

When I was at the AGM of the NSR society in February I took a copy of a couple of Robert Heath wagons from a book of photographs on one of the tables laid out with information provided by Mark Smith. I am sure Mark wouldn't mind if I post it here but I can remove it if need be. 

 

Many thanks. I have contact details for Mark Smith so could follow up with him. I'm sure that photo rings a bell - have you posted it on your own thread? 

 

At any rate, the lettering - white shaded red? - isn't too extensive!

[5&9Models]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@5&9Models (where's Chris' website gone?). 

Unfortunately, due to work and family commitments I have had to close down my kits and castings. I have elderly parents (1 with advanced dementia) two teenagers to support as well as a busy full time job and volunteering work. It leaves so little spare time I have had to call it a day, sorry. What little bit of time I do have will be spent on my own projects which is what keeps me sane at the end of the day. I will return to casting kits when time allows. 
A huge thank you to all those who have supported me with 5&9Models. I will be back one day, just not for a while.

Edited May 14 by 5&9Models

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, 5&9Models said:

Unfortunately, due to work and family commitments I have had to close down my kits and castings. I have elderly parents (1 with advanced dementia) a full time job and two teenagers to support as well as a busy full time job and volunteering work.

 

Full sympathy! I trust the two teenagers are being appropriately supportive of their parents.

 

This is a sort of refreshing change from hearing of kit ranges being discontinued owing to the advanced age of the proprietors...

[Compound2632]

Quote

Four times has the colour of the wagons been changed, and now one never sees what I suppose was the Company’s trade-mark upon the wagons, in form somewhat like an asterisk. 

 

*?

Edited May 13 by Compound2632

[Mol_PMB]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

*?

 

Hopefully * rather than, as commonly mis-spelt:

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Hopefully * rather than, as commonly mis-spelt:

 

Gauling, isn't it?

Edited May 13 by Compound2632

[Schooner]

Oh FFS 🤣🤣🤣

 

Glad to see this raised here - I still have 'trade marks' on the mind, and would be keen to hear about this allegedly once-common GWR device.

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, 5&9Models said:

Unfortunately, due to work and family commitments I have had to close down my kits and castings.

 

So sorry to hear this Chris - I very much enjoyed building one of your lime wagon kits recently - but fully understand your reasons.

 

Hope you can continue with your stunning modelling.

 

Best wishes

 

Neil

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

Oh FFS 🤣🤣🤣

 

Glad to see this raised here - I still have 'trade marks' on the mind, and would be keen to hear about this allegedly once-common GWR device.

 

When I read that this afternoon, my impression was that it referred to an earlier period of GWR history (i.e. earlier than 1904) and therefore thought broad gauge. I had a quick search online for photos showing broad gauge wagons but failed to find any with the lettering/markings clear enough.

Then I wondered whether wagon ownership marks would have been necessary on the broad gauge because the amount of interchange traffic would have been fairly limited, and with 'friendly' companies such as the B&ER. Not sure if that's a valid thought or not.

Maybe the * was used on the GWR's 'narrow gauge' wagons, so from around the 1860s? We see loads of LNWR diamonds in old photos, where are the GWR asterisks?

Sorry, this isn't my core area of interest at all, my mind just wandered.

 

 

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

When I read that this afternoon, my impression was that it referred to an earlier period of GWR history (i.e. earlier than 1904) and therefore thought broad gauge.

 

The Great Western was well on the way to becoming a standard gauge company principally serving the industrial West Midlands and South Wales until the Midland and L&SWR's acquisition of the Somerset & Dorset triggered the amalgamation with the Bristol & Exeter etc. This was a major setback, deferring abolition of the Broad Gauge by nearly 20 years and turning the company into a purveyor of bucolic West Country branch lines.

Edited May 13 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

I wonder if he meant a certain type of chalk mark.

[Mol_PMB]

This paragraph at least suggests it was a proper painted mark equivalent to the LNWR diamond. But the book fails to provide an illustration, unlike the other examples listed:

 

From this old but still very useful tome:

Edited May 13 by Mol_PMB
right letters but in the wrong order

[drduncan]

I think he might be referring to a star like device that can be seen on the left hand end of hired end door wagons from (I think) Birmingham Wagon and Carriage. There is a photo of one on one of the then new wagon tipplers at Carne Point, Fowey, discharging bulk china clay.

 

Regards,

 

Duncan

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

This paragraph at least suggests it was a proper painted mark equivalent to the LNWR diamond. But the book fails to provide an illustration, unlike the other examples listed

 

One might harbour a sneaking suspicion that the source of their information was Shadwell's article...

 

1 minute ago, drduncan said:

I think he might be referring to a star like device that can be seen on the left hand end of hired end door wagons from (I think) Birmingham Wagon and Carriage.

 

Perhaps. But the Smethwick company's mark was an open pentangle:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways.]

 

... a dark mark as befits a company inhabiting the black country, for all its attempts to pass itself of as a Brummagen firm like Metropolitan, Midland, or Brown Marshall. 

 

An asterisk is surely six-pointed?

[Simond]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterisk
 

4, 5, 6, 8 & 16 pointed options are apparently available.

[Mol_PMB]

I don't know why I'm going down this rabbit-hole because I'm never going to find a photo of an Asterisk wagon when generations of GWR wagon researchers have failed. But it's an excuse for a ferret through the Warwickshire Railways website and there will be plenty of gems to find on the way, like this: (with two GWR open wagons, and on the next PO, who were they executors of, I wonder?)

 

 

This (what is that third vehicle?)

 

Even the GWR needed some of these!

 

Too late for this thread, but wonderful nevertheless...

[jwealleans]

That third vehicle is GC.  I think it’s a fish van.

[billbedford]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Four times has the colour of the wagons been changed, and now one never sees what I suppose was the Company’s trade-mark upon the wagons, in form somewhat like an asterisk. 

 

The GCR and the MS&L used a five-pointed star as a logo. So the GW would not have used anything similar.