More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[phil_sutters]

12 hours ago, Trains&armour said:

And a somewhat better Hawkins wagon drawing. Not perfect, but giving a reasonable general impression I think.

 

 

Sorry to be picky, but should that be For repairs advise J. H.....   The overall look is good. Spacing is often tricky, especially when these were painted by hand by signwriters who adjusted proportions to fit the available space. It must be hard if you are working from rather indistinct and sometimes oddly angled photos. I had a go at this one-off CCT for which I had a nice clear photo, in Richard Kelham'd PO wagons of Somerset. I used Photoshop to compress some of the lettering to fit the space

 

Apologies - I uploaded the original version, made before the correct 27ft length had been pointed out to me on a previous occasion. Here is the 27ft version. The planking is still a bit out, but it was the lettering that was under discussion.

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by phil_sutters
Incorrect illustration uploaded

[Mikkel]

11 hours ago, Regularity said:

Yet again an example of just how wide-ranging an impact our hobby has on individuals' knowledge.

 

Also a good example of how much more knowledge you need if you are modelling fictional prototypes or locations. You could build a perfect model of a real location without an ounce of historical knowledge, by simply copying what you see in photos and drawings. 

 

Personally I think such knowledge makes it more fun though (whether I actually remember to apply it is another matter ).

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

Sorry to be picky, but should that be For repairs advise J. H.....   The overall look is good. Spacing is often tricky, especially when these were painted by hand by signwriters who adjusted proportions to fit the available space. It must be hard if you are working from rather indistinct and sometimes oddly angled photos. I had a go at this one-off CCT for which I had a nice clear photo, in Richard Kelham'd PO wagons of Somerset. I used Photoshop to compress some of the lettering to fit the space

 

I'm going to be annoying.

 

I got interested in Midland CCTs a little while ago when I discovered examples painted up for various motor body building firms. The Midland CCTs were to two lengths, 20 ft and 25 ft. Garner records this S&DJR example, which is identical to the Midland vehicles in almost every other respect, to be 27 ft long. Careful counting of the vertical boarding confirms that there are a couple more boards on each sides of the doors than on the Midland 25 ft vehicles; comparison of the proportions in the side-on photo (DY 9125) reproduced in Garner supports the longer length. This also helps make the spacing of the lettering a bit easier. 

 

Ref. R. Garner, The Somerset & Dorset Railway Locomotive and Rolling Stock Registers 1886-1930 (Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust, 2000).

[Trains&armour]

9 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

Sorry to be picky, but should that be For repairs advise J. H.....   

Changed... 

[phil_sutters]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm going to be annoying.

 

I got interested in Midland CCTs a little while ago when I discovered examples painted up for various motor body building firms. The Midland CCTs were to two lengths, 20 ft and 25 ft. Garner records this S&DJR example, which is identical to the Midland vehicles in almost every other respect, to be 27 ft long. Careful counting of the vertical boarding confirms that there are a couple more boards on each sides of the doors than on the Midland 25 ft vehicles; comparison of the proportions in the side-on photo (DY 9125) reproduced in Garner supports the longer length. This also helps make the spacing of the lettering a bit easier. 

 

Ref. R. Garner, The Somerset & Dorset Railway Locomotive and Rolling Stock Registers 1886-1930 (Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust, 2000).

Sorry to have you remind me of the difference between the standard 25ft and the Fuller's 27ft. I had already made an adjusted version, although I am aware that it is still inaccurate in some respects. I have substituted it in my post above. One day I will actually get round to building the damn thing!

[Compound2632]

Too many interesting wagons to model! To compound matters, I've been gambling on Ebay - a vice I thought I'd put away since Slaters reintroduced their Midland wagon kits:

 

 

A pair of Coopercraft Great Western 4-plank wagons. The unmade kit was "buy it now" at £11.99 with free postage - given that the Slaters kits for the D362/3 covered goods wagon and cattle wagon retail at £12 that's really not bad. The built kit really gives me qualms of guilt - I was the only bidder and got it for the paltry sum of £5.20 including postage. Both will be backdated to pre-O5 4-plank wagons with conventional brakegear, in red of course. Part of the attraction of these are the cast plates - the seller of the built kit thoughtfully included the sprue for these - so I will be able to complete a couple of O4 5-plank wagons which should for my period be brand new (even that's stretching it a bit), plated and red.

 

I had tried for a mixed bag of kit-built GW wagons that included another couple of O5s but set my maximum bid at a rather mean £30.01, then kicked myself as it went for £32.33 - another bidder, marginally more ambitious than I, had given up at £31.33. Just over £2 per wagon - a quarter of the price of the Ratio kits new.

 

Moral: there's nothing like building a kit to destroy its value. What would Karl Marx have made of that?

 

The provender wagon lurking in the background is a gift from the same club member who gave me the Smallbrook LBSC cattle wagon kit - which I am guilty of not yet finishing, despite it having spawned a small fleet of Brighton opens. I had made some notes from Atkins (3e) from which I had concluded that there were too many differences - including some key dimensions - between these early 20th century vehicles and the 1888 (?) batch for there to be much mileage in backdating the kit. As a result I think I threw those notes away (they were on the back of a shopping list) and I can't quite remember when the second batch were built - though I note @MikeOxon has one plated and red:

As I recall, there were only six in each batch, making them one of those ridiculously rare wagons that one really needs a good story to justify to the wagon police (i.e. myself). Here goes, with thanks to @Mikkel's stalwart work on stables: the Great Western's horse department was centralised, with provender being distributed to stables around the system from the central stores at Didcot. I'm supposing that the Great Western exercises running powers over my Midland line to reach a significant goods centre - as it did in fact from Wolverhampton to Walsall - and that it does its own cartage from that centre (eka-Walsall). Therefore there would be a periodic delivery of provender - maybe weekly - conveyed by a wagon included, say, the Thursday morning train. I'd be pretty confident that other wagons were used for this traffic to supplement the purpose-built ones, but hey...*

 

*Hear what I did there?

 

Edit: @Annie, thanks for your support in my struggle against Ebay addiction. I'm afraid I'd hit "post" by accident whilst aiming to include the photo...

Edited September 6, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Annie]

Well it certainly grew into an interesting post that was reasonably informative Mr Compound.

[MikeOxon]

The later Q1 batch dated from 1903 and appears in a photo at Didcot with old-style small right-hand G.W.R so I believe it is a candidate for red paint.

 

Provender Wagons at Didcot (heavily cropped)

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Annie said:

Well it certainly grew into an interesting post that was reasonably informative Mr Compound.

 

Heaven forfend that I should be unreasonably informative!

 

6 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

The later Q1 batch dated from 1903 and appears in a photo at Didcot with old-style small right-hand G.W.R so I believe it is a candidate for red paint.

 

As I realised on re-reading that topic of your's. 1903 is just on the date limit for me... I've got an O2 (built 1905-7) that I'm agonising over too.

[MikeOxon]

I suspect the other wagon in the Didcot photo above is the older type.  The most obvious differences are the lack of diagonal strapping on the sides and the brake lever..

Edited February 1, 2020 by MikeOxon

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

I suspect the other wagon in the Didcot photo above is the older type.  The most obvious differences are the lack of diagonal strapping on the sides and the brake lever..

 

As I recall from Atkins, despite having binned my scribbled notes, the earlier six had different wheelbase and possibly also different overall length, dimensions which are red lines to me!

[MikeOxon]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As I recall from Atkins, despite having binned my scribbled notes, the earlier six had different wheelbase and possibly also different overall length, dimensions which are red lines to me!

True - the earlier ones had a 6" longer wheelbase.

[phil_sutters]

I am sure that there were more than adequate lush hayfields in the Thames valley, but did all the hay come from there? Did they bid for bargain lots from other non-GWR areas? What happened to these wagons when the horse delivery fleets and shunting stables were superceded by mechanical devices? Were they well past their sell-by dates by then?

Edited February 2, 2020 by phil_sutters

[Andy Hayter]

BR was still using horses for shunting in small yards into the 1960s, so I think any such wagons would have become life expired well before then.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, phil_sutters said:

I am sure that there were more than adequate lush hayfields in the Thames valley, but did all the hay come from there? Did they bid for bargain lots from other non-GWR areas? What happened to these wagons when the horse delivery fleets and shunting stables were superceded by mechanical devices? Were they well past their sell-by dates by then?

 

@Mikkel has made himself our Great Western horse expert; I'm fairly sure that between him and @Miss Prism there have been posts describing the Great Western's centralised horse fodder purchasing and distribution system but I'm blowed if I can find a specific reference. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

there have been posts describing the Great Western's centralised horse fodder purchasing and distribution system but I'm blowed if I can find a specific reference. 

 

I can offer nothing original. A few points of reference though:

 

- Mikkel posted this interesting snippet (and subsequent posts in the thread) from Tony Atkins' recent book, GWR Goods Cartage Vol 1, which indicates provender was concentrated on Hockley and Didcot

 

- that snippet references 'the well-known article on the Didcot Provender Store written by WH Stanier in the 1906 GW Magazine', which I don't think I've seen before, but I wonder whether it is the same thing that appeared in an early edition of the Great Western Echo (which contained a good partial drawing of the impressive Provender Store

 

- the general subject of straw loading is never far away in Mikkel's main workbench thread 

 

- there is an OPC book, which I have never perused (I think Janet was Jim's daughter):

 

 

 

[MikeOxon]

On 01/02/2020 at 14:27, Compound2632 said:

...........

As I recall, there were only six in each batch, making them one of those ridiculously rare wagons that one really needs a good story to justify to the wagon police (i.e. myself). ..........

 

 

More justification in this photo of Bath Goods Shed in the early 1900s

 

There appear to be two of these rare beasts in the line of wagons on the extreme left of this photo, although there's not much detail to be seen. See comments following ...

 

Both appear to have single diagonal braces each side of the doors so perhaps these are the earlier type.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by MikeOxon
correction to description

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

There appear to be two of these rare beasts in the line of wagons on the extreme left of this photo, although there's not much detail to be seen.

 

 

Splendid photo but aren't those just O2s with cupboard doors above the drop flap door?

 

No. 62882 is a bog standard 4-plank open of Lot 83 (c. 1894/5?) except that it has acquired a sheet rail. An interesting variant to try for...

Edited February 3, 2020 by Compound2632

[Mikkel]

21 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

- there is an OPC book, which I have never perused (I think Janet was Jim's daughter):

 

The Russell book does indeed have a full chapter on the Provender Stores at Didcot.  It includes a (smallish) 1906 photo of the stores which indicates that other more standard Opens were also used for provender. Also shows a loco emerging from inside the stores! Nice layout opportunity  

 

There's a good 1970 photo of the stores here: https://www.facebook.com/DidcotRailwayCentre/photos/a.711321702228054/711322322227992/?type=1&theater

 

 

I understand from the GWS pages that the Provender stores were one of the main reasons Didcot developed into an important station. So - with due respect for the past - it has been demolished.

 

[MikeOxon]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Splendid photo but aren't those just O2s with cupboard doors above the drop flap door?

 

Wishful thinking on my part.  I guess it's the angle of the photo that make them look very tall.  I took photos of my Coopercraft collection to show the differences:

 

 

GWR 4-plank with 7-plank (top) and Provender (below)

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by MikeOxon
image replaced

[Compound2632]

... and I think the wagon between the nearer O2 and the sheeted wagon is a 3-plank open, so making the O2 look taller. The sheeted wagon looks like another 4-plank wagon with sheet rail - so perhaps that was quite a common modification in the early 20th century. Are those a pair of hopper (ballast) wagons on the next line? And what exactly is that in 62882 - at first sight I thought it might be carcases of some large animal but perhaps it's just timber.

 

Fancy brickwork on the structure in front of the goods shed - what is it?

[MikeOxon]

I remember in a discussion about GWR wagon loads, somewhere on here, we found 'seal skins' on a list.  I wonder if that's what this load might be.

Edited February 4, 2020 by MikeOxon

[billbedford]

It's sacks of something light...  If it was seal skins that bloke wouldn't be standing half as close as he is 'cos of the stench. 

[Mikkel]

2 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

I remember in a discussion about GWR wagon loads, somewhere on here, we found 'seal skins' on a list.  I wonder if that's what this load might be.

 

It's at least the third time we are discussing that image   But I can't find the one about the skins/sacks.

 

The full photo shows more, Ian has posted it here:

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Mikkel

[MikeOxon]

I knew we've been there before but couldn't remember when and where.  One of the many problems of ageing