Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

[coachmann]

I would think the dark blue would be an easy one for Hornby. Spray blue instead of black and apply the mixed traffic grey, cream & red lining.

 

It is doubtful the experiment with dark blue lasted long enough to show up whether it could be patch-painted or not. It is worth remembering the dark and light blue's were influenced by colours used by the erstwhile Caledonian Railway. The lighter blue was chosen quite late in the Caley's life because it could be applied with less coats due to the addition of white making it opaque. The dark blue was quite transparent (like Midland lake). Nevertheless, the Great Eastern seemed quite happy with a very similar dark blue. The S&DJR dark blue was slightly different and from memory had white and red mixed with it.

Edited December 4, 2016 by coachmann

[MGR Hooper!]

Thanks to all those who answered my question (unfortunately I'm having trouble with the multi-quote function due to slow internet).

So is there any pictures of the Princess Coronation in it's lovely blue guise fitted with the Ivatt pony truck? Also are there any colour pictures these in slate grey?

Edited December 4, 2016 by MGR Hooper!

[coachmann]

There is a photos of Sir William in light blue in one of D.Jenks books on Duchesses. Be aware that Hornby might (accurately) mould the unsightly conduit on the last two locos covering the period when electric lighting was fitted (circa 1953 to at least 1958). 

[farren]

I would hope if they do produce a model that it can be modeled both with and without the conduit.

[MikeParkin65]

I would hope if they do produce a model that it can be modeled both with and without the conduit.

If lHornby do model the conduit I should imagine it will be a separate fitting like the AWS conduiits on the Britannia and the Scot rather than molded on and thereby limiting the usefulness of the basic tool.

[Betty's Husband]

British Railway Liveries 1948-68 by Colin Boocock has a colour picture of a BR blue Duchess. Will check which one tonight.

[Betty's Husband]

46231 Duchess of Atholl is in BR blue. Not an Ivatt one. Sorry

[Brocp]

Oh dear, I hope not!!

Plus photos in the Wild Swan Locomotive profiles books showing not only Sir William with the electric lighting fitted, plus the dual speedos and extended drain cocks. Not the smartest look

[250BOB]

Short train ? When running in ex-works from Crewe ,they could be seen trundling along on 3 coach non corridor stoppers between Crewe and Shrewsbury.

Hi Ian

I moved from Crewe to Nantwich in mid 1961, and don't recall seeing any running in turns as you described, 3 couple locos, commonly known as "The Trials" would be a daily occurrence almost, but I think only as far as Whitchurch.  But of course by 1961, the running in turns as you describe might have come to an end.....was it more in the 50's you would see these.??

 

I seem to remember that usually only one of the three trials engines was in steam....the others had their cyl cocks open and had that distinctive short air blasts sound from them.

Bob.

[250BOB]

Carried by both Duchesses and Princess Royals until 1953.Incidentally,trainspotters called them either "Duchesses" or more commonly "Semi".This latter referred to the smokebox shape of the defrocked streamliners.Henceforward regardless of subsequent smokebox alteration they were always greeted by that title when approaching Crewe from the North.The cry "Semi !" had all rushing to the best vantage point."Princess Coronation" was too long a mouthful for a young boy spotter in any case,despite what cognoscenti might currently otherwise inform you.You have to be of a certain age to have seen them in everyday use Most have to rely on documentary information/media.

 

Hornby have already modelled several in BR blue.the last being 46241.

Always a semi to us spotters too, during the late 50's and early sixties.

My Dad a 5A man throughout his career through the 40's 50's and sixties, as a fireman then top link driver, always referred to them as Lizzies. I don't know whether he would distinguish between the Princess Class and the Semis, or just refer to them all as Lizzies.

Bob

 

Here is my Dad (on the left) outside the Paint Shop Crewe Works 1964, ready to take out the loco for delivery to Butlins

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by 250BOB

[coachmann]

Geoff Holt and I, both born close to Stockport, had never heard of the spotters term 'Semi' when Tony Wright mentioned LMS Pacifics in a model magazine some years ago. "How the hell can a sloping smokebox top be described as semi-streamlining?" he asked me. I muttered something about spotters and left it at that, but Geoff got into some correspondence.....He was a rum 'un at times haha.

 

I am sure I once heard it said that some working railwaymen did refer to the whole of the Stanier Pacifics as 'Lizzies'. They were 'Princesses' and 'Duchesses' to me but that is probably because I preferred to do my own thing and so was never contaminated by platform end slang. Long after steam had finished, I was told the LMS 3F 0-6-0T's were not 'Jintys'!  And just when I had gotten used to referring to Sulzer Type 2's as Class 25's, my nephew came to stay with us and told me they were called 'Rats'. I consider there is a lot to be said for avoiding crowds....

Edited January 7, 2017 by coachmann

[ikks]

Geoff Holt and I, both born close to Stockport, had never heard of the spotters term 'Semi' when Tony Wright mentioned LMS Pacifics in a model magazine some years ago. "How the hell can a sloping smokebox top be described as semi-streamlining?" he asked me. I muttered something about spotters and left it at that, but Geoff got into some correspondence.....He was a rum 'un at times haha.

 

I am sure I once heard it said that some working railwaymen did refer to the whole of the Stanier Pacifics as 'Lizzies'. They were 'Princesses' and 'Duchesses' to me but that is probably because I preferred to do my own thing and so was never contaminated by platform end slang. Long after steam had finished, I was told the LMS 3F 0-6-0T's were not 'Jintys'!  And just when I had gotten used to referring to Sulzer Type 2's as Class 25's, my nephew came to stay with us and told me they were called 'Rats'.  Coach but they were always referred to as semi's around Tamworth and Crewe......like it or otherwise.

[Stevelewis]

6220 was blue originally, however it swapped identities with 6229 Hamilton between 1939-42 and for that period appeared as 6229, a crimson streamlined loco.  There is a chance you may have seen 6229 masquerading as 6220 in crimson during pre-USA tour test runs.  Coronation could again have been seen in blue between 1942-4 when it got the wartime all black livery.

 

The  period  I observed  the  running  In  turns  would  be approx. 1949/50  (  I was  very  young  then!!)   so Coronation  was I think  back to  its  original number 46220  

[MikeParkin65]

Always a semi to us spotters too, during the late 50's and early sixties.

My Dad a 5A man throughout his career through the 40's 50's and sixties, as a fireman then top link driver, always referred to them as Lizzies.  I don't know whether he would distinguish between the Princess Class and the Semis, or just refer to them all as Lizzies.

Bob

 

Here is my Dad (on the left) outside the Paint Shop Crewe Works 1966 , ready to take out the loco for delivery to Butlins

 

Bill Murray(left) and the Duchess of Hamilton Crewe Works 1966.jpg

I respectively suggest that either the date of the photo or the location are incorrect as several documents quote that 6229 was moved to Butlins Minehead in early 1964 in readiness for the 1964 holiday season.

[LNER4479]

Hi Ian

I moved from Crewe to Nantwich in mid 1961, and don't recall seeing any running in turns as you described, 3 couple locos, commonly known as "The Trials" would be a daily occurrence almost, but I think only as far as Whitchurch. But of course by 1961, the running in turns as you describe might have come to an end.....was it more in the 50's you would see these.??

 

I seem to remember that usually only one of the three trials engines was in steam....the others had their cyl cocks open and had that distinctive short air blasts sound from them.

Bob.

Shrewsbury was a common running in turn for Crewe Works - there are quite a few pre-war pix of eg the original streamliners standing in the centre road at Shrewsbury. I suspect you are correct in that by 1961 the old order was beginning to break down.

 

Manchester stoppers was also a running in turn, including services via the Styal loop line.

[Ian Hargrave]

Hi Ian

I moved from Crewe to Nantwich in mid 1961, and don't recall seeing any running in turns as you described, 3 couple locos, commonly known as "The Trials" would be a daily occurrence almost, but I think only as far as Whitchurch. But of course by 1961, the running in turns as you describe might have come to an end.....was it more in the 50's you would see these.??

 

I seem to remember that usually only one of the three trials engines was in steam....the others had their cyl cocks open and had that distinctive short air blasts sound from them.

Bob.

Yes . Oct. 1954 to be precise. On arrival at Shrewsbury on a spotting trip from South Wales there were two Duchesses in steam ready to roll .46234 and 46236. One of them departed on a 3 suburban Stanier local to Crewe and the other took over a West to North turn from the incoming WR loco.Both appeared to be ex-works as I recall. Edited January 7, 2017 by Ian Hargrave

[250BOB]

I respectively suggest that either the date of the photo or the location are incorrect as several documents quote that 6229 was moved to Butlins Minehead in early 1964 in readiness for the 1964 holiday season.

Thanks Mike, I was never certain of the date, and quoted '66 because someone told me that date a few years back.

But I am certain of the place, my dad told me, and it was he that gave me the photo. I think it was one of those publicity type photos.

I'll amend my post and my personal records, many thanks.

Bob

[coachmann]

I went to collect a sack of 'plumbing' from stores at Newton Heath (26A) around July 1960 and a Lizzie was inside the shed with its rods on the ground while it received attention. I seem to recall it was a red one. I think they were quite rare on this L&Y route.

[250BOB]

Heartwarming to see how many of you "liked" the picture of my dad and the Duchess.....thanks.

Right, I have a couple of Semis that I want to run on my layout, non of which are in the 2017 release range, but I'll only mention one at the moment so as not to confuse the replies, I'll mention the other a little later.
I would like to model if possible, 46224 Princess Alexandra in its final years, the sixties, and want to ask if City of Birmingham would be the best starting point, as it too was built originally as a streamliner. What are pitfalls/ differences of loco and tender if I wanted to rename and renumber the model.?
Bob

 

And here is another pic of 6229 in 1964 outside the paint shop at Crewe, same time as the earlier photo with my dad alongside

Edited January 8, 2017 by 250BOB

[Brocp]

Heartwarming to see how many of you "liked" the picture of my dad and the Duchess.....thanks.

 

Right, I have a couple of Semis that I want to run on my layout, non of which are in the 2017 release range, but I'll only mention one at the moment so as not to confuse the replies, I'll mention the other a little later.

I would like to model if possible, 46224 Princess Alexandra in its final years, the sixties, and want to ask if City of Birmingham would be the best starting point, as it too was built originally as a streamliner. What are pitfalls/ differences of loco and tender if I wanted to rename and renumber the model.?

Bob

 

And here is another pic of 6229 in 1964 outside the paint shop at Crewe, same time as the earlier photo with my dad alongside

 

Without checking my books etc, off the top of my head, it's a straight identity swap to get Alexandra from City of Birmingham

[Hilux5972]

They look very odd without their smoke deflectors.

[toboldlygo]

They look very odd without their smoke deflectors.

Agreed, a slight Crosti vibe at the front

[Hilux5972]

Agreed, a slight Crosti vibe at the front

Very much so.

[Brocp]

They look naked really.... i can only imagine what people thought when they were de streamlined with the sloping smoke box and deflectors for the first time

[Ian Hargrave]

They look naked really.... i can only imagine what people thought when they were de streamlined with the sloping smoke box and deflectors for the first time

Added to the as built non streamlined locos after the Castlecary accident which was apparently caused by drifting exhaust steam obscuring the crew's vision leaving them unsighted of a signal.