Vivarail 230 catches fire

[Titan]

If XC could find some more Voyagers they wouldn't be wasting them on local shuttles.

 

Who said anything about Voyagers?

[Wheatley]

If XC could find some more Voyagers they wouldn't be wasting them on local shuttles.

Especially when the fares don't cover the costs. I'm assuming LM don't actually have 170s sitting around doing nothing on match days otherwise they would have used them for the experimental services last year, rather than losing £18k a trip on charter fees. Anything beyond the franchise commitment of one 153 an hour is solely at LM's financial risk.

[Shropshire Lad]

Who said anything about Voyagers?

New St depot + route knowledge = Train Managers. Train Managers = Voyagers or HSTs

[Coryton]

stressful point in an engine's operation and having to accelerate a load over 4 times greater than the design load will no doubt take it's toll on a small high revving engine. There's a reason that DMUs generally use a single bigger engine per vehicle vs multiple smaller ones. If replacing a single bigger engine with multiple smaller engines was more beneficial it would have already been implemented by bigger rolling stock manufacturers.

 

 

But 220 and 800 families aside, current DMUs are hydraulic (or mechanical).

 

I think having multiple small engines and generators is easier than doing the same thing with hydraulic transmission, though I suppose you could have each bogie (or axle for Pacers) independently driven.

[Zomboid]

Loads of little engines in a DE is quite well established and is known by some as a genset. Modern switchers in North America have multiple relatively low powered engines (eg 3x 700hp Cummins in this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRE_3GS21B?wprov=sfla1).

One of the 73/9 designs uses the same principal. So long as the control system keeps each engine within it's rating it's not an issue.

[ColinK]

The new DB class 245 diesel-electric also uses four smaller engines instead of one big one.

[Coryton]

The new DB class 245 diesel-electric also uses four smaller engines instead of one big one.

 

Isn't this (partly?) to improve efficiency by shutting some of the engines down when full power isn't required?

[Fenman]

Loads of little engines in a DE is quite well established and is known by some as a genset. Modern switchers in North America have multiple relatively low powered engines (eg 3x 700hp Cummins in this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRE_3GS21B?wprov=sfla1).

 

One of the 73/9 designs uses the same principal. So long as the control system keeps each engine within it's rating it's not an issue.

And, of course, closer to home, 2 low-powered diesel engines per Clayton. Oh, wait - that didn't work out so well, did it?

 

Paul

[w124bob]

XC has 170's as well as LM, pass Tyesley off peak particularly on Saturday afternoon and you will see plenty. There are at least 2 XC depots with route knowledge for Coventry/ Nuneaton but only New st have both traction and route knowledge. I'm not sure if Northern still run to Old Trafford on Saturday match days but it can be done. As I said this is all about having the will to provide a service, non of which seem to exist from any quarter at the moment.

[Coryton]

And, of course, closer to home, 2 low-powered diesel engines per Clayton. Oh, wait - that didn't work out so well, did it?

 

Paul

 

Ah but the twin-engine Deltics were much more successful than the single engine baby-Deltics, so that proves.....er not very much really....

 

I've just remembered that multiple engines and direct (i.e. not electrical) transmission was tried. I don't think the Fell diesel was a tremendous success though.

[Shropshire Lad]

XC has 170's as well as LM, pass Tyesley off peak particularly on Saturday afternoon and you will see plenty. There are at least 2 XC depots with route knowledge for Coventry/ Nuneaton but only New st have both traction and route knowledge. I'm not sure if Northern still run to Old Trafford on Saturday match days but it can be done. As I said this is all about having the will to provide a service, non of which seem to exist from any quarter at the moment.

Senior Conductors at Birmingham don't sign the route from Nuneaton to Coventry which is why I stated Voyagers ( or HSTs but that's even less likely)Train Managers don't sign 170s so without some route learning or traction learning it isn't possible without having a TM and an SC on every train.

[Glorious NSE]

Isn't this (partly?) to improve efficiency by shutting some of the engines down when full power isn't required?

 

It is.

 

DMUs don't run at full power all the time either though.

 

 

[newbryford]

Ah but the twin-engine Deltics were much more successful than the single engine baby-Deltics, so that proves.....er not very much really....

 

 

The engines used in the Baby D were a different animal to that in it's big brother. The 23 used a nine cylinder T9-29, whereas the 55 had two D18-25s

[Zomboid]

Ah but the twin-engine Deltics were much more successful than the single engine baby-Deltics, so that proves.....er not very much really....

 

I've just remembered that multiple engines and direct (i.e. not electrical) transmission was tried. I don't think the Fell diesel was a tremendous success though.

The Claytons were rubbish because the engines were rubbish, weren't they? A problem of implementation rather than concept.

 

Other multi engined non DEs include the D800 and D1000 series.

[Zomboid]

Senior Conductors at Birmingham don't sign the route from Nuneaton to Coventry which is why I stated Voyagers ( or HSTs but that's even less likely)Train Managers don't sign 170s so without some route learning or traction learning it isn't possible without having a TM and an SC on every train.

Or just have the trains operated by LM. Unless the XC 170s are that different from theirs.

[Wheatley]

It's surely academic given that XC have shown no interest and LM have had their fingers burned twice and don't appear to be in a hurry to try again. Maybe CCFC and Wasps (or their supporters' clubs)or WMT could charter their own trains if they think it will pay. If it won't pay why should anyone else take the hit ?

[Talltim]

Pretty much all DMUs have lots of little engines instead of a big one at the front...

[SwissRailPassion]

Pretty much all DMUs have lots of little engines instead of a big one at the front...

And soon quite a few EMUs will be getting those little engines too

[Mike Buckner]

Many of the first-generation DMU's had 2 engines per power car

[Rods_of_Revolution]

Many of the first-generation DMU's had 2 engines per power car

 

Yes, but look at the difference in specifications between equivalent engines of the time. The DMUs were using 2 x British United Traction engines, each supplying 125hp at less than 2000rpm. The equivalent van engine of the time, in something like Ford Thames 400E, would have been developing less than 50hp at over 4000rpm.

 

The railway industry at the time opted for the largest and lowest revving engine they could fit under the vehicle, it just so happened to be a combination of two engines. To be comparable with what Vivarail are doing today, First Generation DMUs would have needed to use 4 x 50hp van engines all revving at over 4000rpm. You'll notice that DMUs with a single engine, like 201s, had to have the engine above the frames, such was engine technology of the time, a single engine of enough power was just too big to go under the frames.

 

So the First Generation DMUs actually reinforce the argument against the Class 230's design.

 

All the best,

 

Jack

[pete_mcfarlane]

Other multi engined non DEs include the D800 and D1000 series.

 

And the Fell........

[jjb1970]

Automotive engines are primarily connected to mech drives. Bigger engines can be electric drive or mech drive and the really big engines are primarily mech drive. Electric drives tend to be much simpler, less torsional and alignment issues and at these sort of sizes are often supplied as a drop in package.

[jjb1970]

I'm guessing that calling these engines transit van engines is a bit of a misnomer as I expect they're Ford power products engines. Same basic platform but sold and certificated for mobile non-road use.

[Rods_of_Revolution]

I'm guessing that calling these engines transit van engines is a bit of a misnomer as I expect they're Ford power products engines. Same basic platform but sold and certificated for mobile non-road use.

 

They are using 3.2l Duratorq engines of the same type used in certain models of Transit Van. Assuming the standard method of reconditioning is used, the engines will be sent away and reconditioned in common with engines from other places, meaning that an engine that has come out of a Transit Van could be reconditioned and put under a Class 230. So I don't think it's a misnomer to refer to them as Transit Van engines, as in theory a Class 230 could end up with a reconditioned engine that has literally come from a Transit Van!

 

All the best,

 

Jack

[Coryton]

The Claytons were rubbish because the engines were rubbish, weren't they? A problem of implementation rather than concept.

 

Other multi engined non DEs include the D800 and D1000 series.

 

I presume that each engine drove one bogie, so nothing fancy in the way of transmission required. A mechanical or hydraulic transmission for a three or more engine locomotive would get more interesting (unless you cheat by adding more bogies).