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Rails of Sheffield Exclusive Class 66 614 'Poppy' Freightliner Diesel Locomotive

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I completely understand why people want a newly-tooled 66, but I can't help feeling that there is an element of wishful thinking rather than thinking about the business logic.

 

The reality is that Bachmann have tooling that they can continue to use to churn out umpteen 66s in lots of liveries with little (or no) detail variations.

 

Why would they invest in new tooling? If the existing tooling was life expired / damaged - possibly. Or if they were nervous about a competitor coming in with a brand new tooling with better features - possibly but could the new model compete on price?

 

On the price of the existing 66 - we don't know how complex the 66 is to produce compared to say Dapol's 68 (or whether both models are paying off their tooling over the same periods). Old tooling does not necessarily equal cheaper to produce (in fact it may mean the opposite - a newer tooling might be designed for easier assembly/fewer parts as assembly costs have increased).

 

So back to the question - why would Bachmann invest in new tooling?

 

Cheers, Mike

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How different is the Low-Emissions version of the 66? Wasn't that released by Bachmann a few years back? Would that have necessitated new tooling or just a couple of alternative slides for the tooling?

Edited by Hilux5972

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It's definitely time that Bachmann completely re-tool the Class 66 because it is now end of life in respect to detail and price...

But the issue for me is when Bachmann eventually get around to releasing a brand new tooled Class 66 how exactly are they going to price it especially with Limited Editions and current mainstream models always starting above the £150 RRP mark, certainly hope they can keep them down like Dapol have with their Class 68's.

 

Well, a reasonable question, but at the end of the day whether Bachmann decided to retool or design again from scratch, any new Class 66 surely cannot work out to be any more expensive, than for example, whatever the forthcoming retooled Class 20 or all-new Class 90 will be - and at present we have no idea how these will be priced - however by the very token that these models (the 20 and 90) have been announced and are going into production, indicates that Bachmann feel that the market will support whatever that final shelf price turns out to be.  To reiterate, the £169 price tag really isn't my gripe here, as I have said, if Bachmann (or indeed any manufacturer), were to produce an all-singing, all-dancing 66 and it was even priced in excess of this amount, personally I am confident that I would still buy them - provided that the quality is present.  If I'm totally honest I think I might prefer it if an alternative manufacturer were to have a bash at the 66, as frankly I could list a whole host of issues with the current Bachmann offering, both from a detailing and from a design standpoint - but again, to go deeper into that here is probably 'off topic' and should be saved for elsewhere.

 

Still, at the moment all of the above is hypothetical, as indeed Bachmann haven't announced a retool for the 66, and even if they announce one tomorrow then I'd imagine we would still have a good 4-5 years to wait anyway (think of the Class 158, Class 24, not to mention how long we waited for the Class 40).  Additionally, even if retooled there is no guarantee that the end result will be fantastic - look at what Bachmann did when they retooled the Class 37, which quite frankly seemed to be a bit of a hash, as now suddenly the nose is too long on the split-box variant (unforgivable in my opinion), and aside from that I cannot see that anything else was actually 'improved'.

 

Similarly, we are all eagerly awaiting the Class 20, but again it depends how far they go with it...  naturally the necessary modifications to depict the 20/3 variant will be present and I would imagine that the absence of lights will be addressed, but importantly, will they incorporate any improvements to the bogies, grills, body moulding etc etc, or will these latter areas essentially/simply be cloned from the existing tooling...

 

 

I completely understand why people want a newly-tooled 66, but I can't help feeling that there is an element of wishful thinking rather than thinking about the business logic.

 

The reality is that Bachmann have tooling that they can continue to use to churn out umpteen 66s in lots of liveries with little (or no) detail variations.

 

Why would they invest in new tooling? If the existing tooling was life expired / damaged - possibly. Or if they were nervous about a competitor coming in with a brand new tooling with better features - possibly but could the new model compete on price?

 

On the price of the existing 66 - we don't know how complex the 66 is to produce compared to say Dapol's 68 (or whether both models are paying off their tooling over the same periods). Old tooling does not necessarily equal cheaper to produce (in fact it may mean the opposite - a newer tooling might be designed for easier assembly/fewer parts as assembly costs have increased).

 

So back to the question - why would Bachmann invest in new tooling?

 

Cheers, Mike

 

Mike, I totally agree with all that you have said, from a business stance it would make little sense to introduce a new model if the current offering is proving to be 'easy money', or perhaps a little less kindly, 'money for old rope'.  It's actually very annoying that Bachmann are actually churning-out these special liveries on what is an outdated model, as if and when a new version is released it most likely means that they won't touch these liveries again.  I mean, the London Transport liveries were superbly produced, but the major letdown was that they were again 'churned-out' on an outdated model.  The point being that even with a new model I highly doubt that these great liveries would be produced ever again.

 

Still, at the end of the day it reverts to the customer to make Bachmann aware that the old offering is no longer acceptable, for which there are two ways of achieving that...

 

i)  Stop forking-out £169 for what is essentially an outdated model.

 

ii)  Express opinion directly to Bachmann, or via forums such as this.

 

On the other hand, if buyers are still happy to cough-up then fair enough, each to his own, or as I'm more likely to think in this case, more fool them...

 

 

How different is the Low-Emissions version of the 66? Wasn't that released by Bachmann a few years back? Would that have necessitated new tooling or just a couple of alternative slides for the tooling?

 

Indeed, the low-emission variant was quite a few years ago now and I would guess alternative slides as the overall standard of each variant is absolutely identical.  The obvious differences between standard and low-emission are: different bodyside/roof grilles, additional bodyside door/steps, smaller fuel tank, different cabside windows.

Edited by YesTor

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Personally, have thought one of Simon Kohlers biggest mistakes was not doing a Class 66 after the Class 60.

 

Personally for me I think 90% of Bachmann is over-priced, but then again its not really Bachmann who dictate the price, its the parent company Kader.  Bachmann Europe just add a mark up for their part of the enterprise, to cover their costs and produce more profit for Kader!  Likewise I'm not really a fan or Richard Foreters most recent editorial in the latest Model Rail, justifying Bachmann's high prices (the second one!).  Everyone has personal circumstances as to whether they can afford to purchase a loco or not, and likewise an opinion on whether it offers value to them or not.  

 

Regards,

 

C.

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Wow that's quite a post, almost like hearing from NASA we will be visited by aliens within the next month.

I wait with anticipation and looking forward to any new announcements around the 66.

I have to say 66's would have to be selling pretty well otherwise you wouldn't be getting all these liveries being churned out by Bachmann and special commissions from retailers so yes going back to my previous posts that it is due to be completely re-tooled and if Bachmann don't have the stomach for it then I hope someone else does the job.

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Personally, have thought one of Simon Kohlers biggest mistakes was not doing a Class 66 after the Class 60.

 

How would that have worked? The 60 was first announced in 2005, the same year Bachmann released the 66.

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There is, because I was approached by 2 (individuals / shops / organisations) to produce a fully loaded top specification 66 a couple of years back, a market for an all encompassing new model in OO gauge.

 

The 2 who were interested, recognised this, as did I, but nothing came of it through DJM, although something is afoot for September that might be a relevant announcement from one of these parties.

Hmm interesting. I like the sound of that.

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There is, because I was approached by 2 (individuals / shops / organisations) to produce a fully loaded top specification 66 a couple of years back, a market for an all encompassing new model in OO gauge.

 

The 2 who were interested, recognised this, as did I, but nothing came of it through DJM, although something is afoot for September that might be a relevant announcement from one of these parties.

 

Indeed, while I have no idea of the actual quantities sold of these models, and all my views are simply educated guesswork, it surely isn't quantum mechanics to work out that if ever there was a model that might just support duplicate manufacturing then it would be the 66.  Again, I realize that the market changes all the time but in years past we have had duplicates of two other very popular types with the Class 37 & 47, from two and even three manufacturers.  As we all know, over the past 20 years the 66 has been, and continues to be, the most numerous locomotive type on the network and will likely remain so for the next 20 years.  There are already a vast number of liveries and I'd imagine there will be many more variations before they finally bow out of service...

Edited by YesTor

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How would that have worked? The 60 was first announced in 2005, the same year Bachmann released the 66.

 

Well after completing the Class 60 tooling, it would have been a couple of years before a Class 66 would have been researched, tooled and brought to market.  Have a look at a Hornby Class 60 - the tooling has much more finesse than the Bachmann 66!

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Well after completing the Class 60 tooling, it would have been a couple of years before a Class 66 would have been researched, tooled and brought to market.  Have a look at a Hornby Class 60 - the tooling has much more finesse than the Bachmann 66!

 

I think Hornby missed a beat with not developing a super detailed Class 66 instead continuing with their old Lima based tooling in the railroad range which for me is a bit pointless unless you are actually purchasing it for your 5-10 year old.

I recently purchased the Colas Class 60 and it is top class with detail, weight and livery application expertly done hence why I think they could have done the same with the 66 and given Bachmann a run for their money or at least some decent competition which also could be said for the Class 37.

I had always wondered by Hornby gave Bachmann a free pass in regards to OO Class 66 & 37 sales in not doing their own detailed versions, I've only been into railway modeling for 4 years thus excuse me if I'm not aware of any previous history which stopped Hornby from developing super detailed models of these two very common and well sold classes.

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Didn't Hornby already have a Class 66 though?

 

I wouldn't have expected them to make a new top of the range version when they already had a model that was adequate for many purchasers and when one of their rivals were releasing a better one.

 

 

 

Jason

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Didn't Hornby already have a Class 66 though?

 

I wouldn't have expected them to make a new top of the range version when they already had a model that was adequate for many purchasers and when one of their rivals were releasing a better one.

 

 

 

Jason

Hasn't stopped them before with things like the 08.

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Hasn't stopped them before with things like the 08.

That's because Hornbys 08/09 tooling is far superior to Bachmanns. That being said, and despite my previous statement, I do believe that Hornby could have made a far, far better Class 66 than Bachmanns 66.

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That's because Hornbys 08/09 tooling is far superior to Bachmanns. That being said, and despite my previous statement, I do believe that Hornby could have made a far, far better Class 66 than Bachmanns 66.

That is my point, Hornby had a poor 08 and the existence of the pretty good Bachmann 08 didn't stop them doing a better one.

 

Roy

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Yes but Hornbys 08 wasn't released the same year as Bachmanns 08 is what I was saying. Bachmanns was released 5-6 years before Hornbys. Even that length of time can give huge leaps in model detailing

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There is, because I was approached by 2 (individuals / shops / organisations) to produce a fully loaded top specification 66 a couple of years back, a market for an all encompassing new model in OO gauge.

 

The 2 who were interested, recognised this, as did I, but nothing came of it through DJM, although something is afoot for September that might be a relevant announcement from one of these parties.

I wonder whether this means Dapol may be using the 59 as a way of going head to head with a 66... They already do in N...

Edited by GEOEng03

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Have a look at a Hornby Class 60 - the tooling has much more finesse than the Bachmann 66!

 

Absolutely, without doubt, multiply by 10

 

 

I wonder whether this means Dapol may be using the 59 as a way of going head to head with a 66... They already do in N...

 

Hmmm, who can say, but having seen the Dapol 59 in the flesh it definitely lacks that all-important 'wow factor' that their recent 68 most definitely has.  If anything, Dapol in many aspects seem to have replicated Bachmann's existing 66 with regard to design and spec, which if I'm honest is somewhat disappointing.

Edited by YesTor

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Hmmm, with respect, I think you may have misinterpreted my point - my thread is nothing like a "moan about price", the emphasis really is on the overall quality/standard of the model and the perceived value for money (not quite the same category as a simple "price moan").    ;)

 

Thank you kindly.

You may be correct, look at the time of my reply.  :drag:

 

Unfortunately I am a bit quick to bite at the 'this model is too expensive' posts because they infect nearly every single thread about new models, I do apologise for that. 

 

For what its worth I do actually agree with you that new models are a lot more expensive than they were a few years ago but it is only really the prices 'normalising' after being kept artificially low by the cheap labour available in China.

Unfortunately a lot of other companies have also headed out to China to take advantage of that cheap labour, and the simple facts of supply and demand means that there simply isnt enough cheap labour available for everyone so factories are upping their pay rates to ensure they have enough (now not quite so) cheap labour to manufacture their items, the factories left short are then having to up their wages to attract the labour to work to them, and so on and so on.

This happened in my industry after privatisation of the railways meaning I now take home more wages than I could ever imagine I would be able to earn.

 

As for the Bachmann 66 being an 'old' model, well yes it is but once the moulds are manufactured the cost of the plastic bits is insignificant and the costs of having the people put the model together have gone up quite markedly and its the labour costs which cost the money.

If Bachmann were to design the 66 again I bet there would be far fewer parts involved meaning the labour costs would be lower, hence a better model would (probably could but wouldnt) cost about the same as the current one.

Edited by royaloak

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You may be correct, look at the time of my reply.  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_drag.gif

 

Unfortunately I am a bit quick to bite at the 'this model is too expensive' posts because they infect nearly every single thread about new models, I do apologise for that. 

 

For what its worth I do actually agree with you that new models are a lot more expensive than they were a few years ago but it is only really the prices 'normalising' after being kept artificially low by the cheap labour available in China.

Unfortunately a lot of other companies have also headed out to China to take advantage of that cheap labour, and the simple facts of supply and demand means that there simply isnt enough cheap labour available for everyone so factories are upping their pay rates to ensure they have enough (now not quite so) cheap labour to manufacture their items, the factories left short are then having to up their wages to attract the labour to work to them, and so on and so on.

This happened in my industry after privatisation of the railways meaning I now take home more wages than I could ever imagine I would be able to earn.

 

As for the Bachmann 66 being an 'old' model, well yes it is but once the moulds are manufactured the cost of the plastic bits is insignificant and the costs of having the people put the model together have gone up quite markedly and its the labour costs which cost the money.

If Bachmann were to design the 66 again I bet there would be far fewer parts involved meaning the labour costs would be lower, hence a better model would (probably could but wouldnt) cost about the same as the current one.

I have a ROS Class 66 'Maltby Raider' in Freightliner. Which was a Limited Edition and is marked up at £79.99. Manufactured in 2005, these tools have well and truly paid for themselves now !!

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Guest Midland Mole

While I can still get cheap ones on ebay, I'm fine with the tooling. Paying for the new ones though...not so much. ;)

Alex

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Thought that I would post on here, seen as though it's about 66s. This is all just my opinion.

 

I can see what people are saying about the Bachmann Limited Editions 66s been too expensive at £170 each. I therefore also see the point about the current Class 66 tooling been over a decade old and you therefore are not getting anything extra for your money. Yes the 66s do have some faults. There is a thread on here about bogie/wheel faults with the 66s and obviously they lack detailing seen as though the tooling is over a decade old.

 

There probably is a market for a new upgraded Class 66 either that been Bachmann upgrading their existing tooling or another manufacturer producing some in OO Gauge. However right now probably wouldn't be the time to produce a brand new Class 66. If you consider how many 66s Bachmann have produced in the last couple of years whether this be standard models or Limited Edition. Here are the ones that I can think of 040 in EWS livery, 050 in EWS livery, 062 in ECR livery, 065 in EWS livery with DB Schenker logos, 111 in EWS livery, 416 in Freightliner Powerhaul livery, 418 in DRS Blue with Freightliner logos, 434 in Revised DRS livery, 709 in MSC livery, 711 in Bardon Aggregrates livery, 718 in LTM livery, 720 in Night & Day livery, 721 in LTM livery. 

 

The following are due to arrive soon: 614 in Freightliner livery, 727 in Maritime livery, 728 in GBRF livery and 779 in BR Green. 

 

Whilst I love the 66s and anyone who models the current scene will no doubt also like them right now I don't think that their is a potential for anymore new liveries as Bachmann have produced or have announced most of the special liveries and standard liveries within the last couple of years. There really now is just a handful of the special liveries that are yet to be announced and produced and I'm sure that we will see these in 2018 and 2019. Apart from the special liveries the only thing that a different manufacturer could do is to produce re runs of the standard liveries. Although I'm not sure if their is a market for the original, more basic liveries to be produced by a different manufacturer which have already been produced by Bachmann. 

 

At the moment I feel happy and grateful that we are seeing so many of the special liveried 66s announced and produced. We have never had modelling and collecting so good when we can buy so many special liveries as Limited Editions produced by a ready to run manufacturer. 

 

Yes the current 66 model does lack detail but in twelve years from when 66552 was produced their have been so many developments in manufacturing methods. That is not Bachmann's fault and as with many things in life things do change in time. Lets not be too critical of Bachmann. Yes ideally in 2015 before the models that have been produced in the last two years were announced it would have been good for Bachmann to upgrade the tooling and they didn't. 

 

But we have to consider that to pay for the upgraded tooling no doubt the models produced in the last couple of years would have been higher in price to cover the costs of the upgraded tooling. What I'm trying to say is we really can't have it both ways. We can't see so many 66s produced in a variety of liveries and complain about the prices when if Bachmann had of upgraded the tooling no doubt the prices for the 66s would have even higher than what they are now. Also if there was an increase in price it may make it financially unviable for retailers alike Rails of Sheffield and Kernow to commission Bachmann to produce 66s with upgraded tooling. I'm sure that the price would be above £170 to cover the costs for the new tooling and to enable retailers to actually make something at the end of it. 

 

My point is that I think we should be greatful for what we are been offered. Retailers don't have to commission Bachmann to produce Limited Edition 66s. Also the retailers are taking a big gamble as to if the locos will actually sell or not when they arrive. Lets be fair and this is not a criticism towards Bachmann we wouldn't see the range of special liveried 66s until 2020 or later with the current situation regarding Bachmann's general releases within the catalogue. By then these special liveried 66s may have been repainted and therefore the locos may not be produced in model form, meaning that we wouldn't have the opportunity to buy them in the first place. 

 

We all think £170 is a bit steep for a 66 but I'm just glad that retailers are commissioning Bachmann to produce these special liveried 66s in the first place. At least we have got the opportunity to buy them. 

 

All of the above is just my opinion and I realise that some may agree and some may disagree. 

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I think we've been really spoilt in the last twelve months, not bought so many 66s over such a short period.

 

In terms of future releases the new red DB has yet to be covered, 66101 and 66152 have been produced with the smaller DB Shenker lettering in the centre, but lots to go at...

post-732-0-81270700-1502659588.jpg

post-732-0-99094100-1502659720.jpg

Edited by martin_l_jones

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If you consider how many 66s Bachmann have produced in the last couple of years whether this be standard models or Limited Edition. Here are the ones that I can think of 040 in EWS livery, 050 in EWS livery, 062 in ECR livery, 065 in EWS livery with DB Schenker logos, 111 in EWS livery, 416 in Freightliner Powerhaul livery, 418 in DRS Blue with Freightliner logos, 434 in Revised DRS livery, 709 in MSC livery, 711 in Bardon Aggregrates livery, 718 in LTM livery, 720 in Night & Day livery, 721 in LTM livery. 

 

The following are due to arrive soon: 614 in Freightliner livery, 727 in Maritime livery, 728 in GBRF livery and 779 in BR Green. 

 

My point is that I think we should be greatful for what we are been offered.

 

All of the above is just my opinion and I realise that some may agree and some may disagree. 

 

Exactly my point, well partly at least - in that it does in a way feel as though Bachmann have been in a mad rush to 'knock out' these new liveries and cash-in while the going is good.  I can't blame them of course in terms of it making good business sense (to them at least), but I'm less inclined to share the feeling of "we should be grateful", as at the end of the day these models are being released to generate profit, as opposed to being offered out of the goodness of Mr Bachmann's heart - and that latter statement is meant as an observation rather than a criticism. 

 

Still, agreed that not all of us will reach the same conclusion, and I appreciate that many will be happier to see these liveries produced right now on an outdated model as opposed to waiting for an upgraded one.  Personally, I'd rather go without the new liveries and concentrate on something else in the meantime.  My last 66s purchased were the London Transport models, and as I said earlier whilst the printing for these particular variants is quite stunning, my overall satisfaction is dimmed greatly by the rest of the model.

 

Each to his own I guess...

Edited by YesTor

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Exactly my point, well partly at least - in that it does in a way feel as though Bachmann have been in a mad rush to 'knock out' these new liveries and cash-in while the going is good.  I can't blame them of course in terms of it making good business sense (to them at least), but I'm less inclined to share the feeling of "we should be grateful", as at the end of the day these models are being released to generate profit, as opposed to being offered out of the goodness of Mr Bachmann's heart - and that latter statement is meant as an observation rather than a criticism. 

 

Still, agreed that not all of us will reach the same conclusion, and I appreciate that many will be happier to see these liveries produced right now on an outdated model as opposed to waiting for an upgraded one.  Personally, I'd rather go without the new liveries and concentrate on something else in the meantime.  My last 66s purchased were the London Transport models, and as I said earlier whilst the printing for these particular variants is quite stunning, my overall satisfaction is dimmed greatly by the rest of the model.

 

Each to his own I guess...

 

I completely agree and see your point. 

 

I think that the majority would agree that £170 for Limited Edition 66s is a lot of money. However I highly suspect that this is the only time that we will see these special liveries produced as ready to run models. I don't see any point in another manufacturer producing the same special liveried Class 66s. Especially seen as though LTM still have some 66718 models for sale. 

 

Another way that this situation could be looked upon is about the fact how much people/shops charge for commission resprays. For example Olivia's Trains are currently charging £220 for a respray of 66709 in MSC livery. Considering that the Olivia's respray doesn't have the Europorte rounded logos at either end of the ship on the side of the loco and it doesn't say anywhere that the loco is new meaning that it could be used/second hand I really don't see the problem in paying £170 for a factory finished model, where the livery is accurately applied, the livery is correct and the model is brand new. Especially when their is a £50 saving between the Bachmann Limited Edition commissioned by Kernow and the Olivia's respray. 

 

I am not criticising Olivia's Trains I am just making comparisons between a factory finished model and a respray. 

 

This is just my personal opinion and I realise that some may agree and some may disagree. 

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Is it not time for discussion on price / new tooling to move to a new thread and leave this one on the topic of the Rails limited edition?

 

Given that there are several limited edition 66s from several different organisations, it is a little unfair on Rails that this one seems to be the main focus of discussion.

 

Edit: even more so given other organisations are being mentioned.

 

Roy

Edited by Roy Langridge

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