Imaginary Railways

[DenysW]

A belated reply ...

 

Quote

John New said: "

The problem of counterfactual history as a genre is always the stripping out of the actual (what did get done) and blending it with the postulated alternative reality.

 

For example with @DenysW’s version we are left to establish which company (actual or fictitious)  without the Midland Railway’s existence would have become the railway serving the Aire Valley taking the freight off the already established Leeds & Liverpool canal corridor. Also how would freight and pax have moved north and  west towards Scotland out of the prosperous West Riding industrial belt?"

The Aire Valley line (to Colne) was built as the Leeds & Bradford Extension, then pretty much immediately leased to the Midland. In the imaginary world where the Midland Counties Railway has defected to LNWR, I'd see the Leeds & Bradford as joining one of the remaining groupings - probably the Manchester & Leeds Railway, a constituent of the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway. In the real world there does seem to have been an end-on junction with the L&Y at Colne, with the Skipton-Colns leg not having survived Beeching.

[whart57]

I was unaware of this thread when I kicked off a short thread on an imaginary railway in NE Kent. A link to it might be appropriate

 

A might have been terminus in NE Kent

Edited January 17, 2022 by whart57

[rodent279]

Not an imaginary railway in the usual sense, but what if Woodhead hadn't closed? If we make the supposition that there was sufficient traffic to justify retaining it, would it have:-

a) remained double track 1500v D.C.

b) remained double track and been converted to 25kv A.C.

c) remained double track and been de-electrified

d) been singled and de-electrified?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DenysW]

It was Beeching's preference over the Hope/Edale route, and lost out because the latter had better pressure groups (at least, this is the conventional wisdom). If this was the reason it stayed open, then it would stay dualled (or if it was maintained open as an emergencies-only reserve to Hope/Edale).

 

As to electricity I give you the Erie-Lackawanna suburban New Jersey conversion of the 1970s/1980s from DC to AC. The only rationale for the change of voltage-type was that the other lines into Hoboken were AC, so it needed to change for compatibility reasons when the (very old) DC supply needed asset renewal. The carriages weren't spring chickens, either - some dated back to pre-WW1 and steam days.

 

So it would depend on what else was going into Manchester, and I believe would eventually have been made the same as the WCML.

[62613]

On 18/01/2022 at 08:40, DenysW said:

It was Beeching's preference over the Hope/Edale route, and lost out because the latter had better pressure groups (at least, this is the conventional wisdom). If this was the reason it stayed open, then it would stay dualled (or if it was maintained open as an emergencies-only reserve to Hope/Edale).

 

As to electricity I give you the Erie-Lackawanna suburban New Jersey conversion of the 1970s/1980s from DC to AC. The only rationale for the change of voltage-type was that the other lines into Hoboken were AC, so it needed to change for compatibility reasons when the (very old) DC supply needed asset renewal. The carriages weren't spring chickens, either - some dated back to pre-WW1 and steam days.

 

So it would depend on what else was going into Manchester, and I believe would eventually have been made the same as the WCML.

The stub, to Glossop/Hadfield was, of course, converted in IIRC, 1983.

[DenysW]

There's a full thread on the Woodhead under Prototypes. What I took from it was (a) Sheffield Victoria and Sheffield (Midland) being at different levels was a killer disadvantage for this 'what if', and (b)  there were lots of reasons at the time that made closure the right decision, and (c) if it had staggered on for another decade, it might be with us still.

 

Beware the second half of the thread - too many posts from folks with a political stance that made them pre-judge the answer, and an extended digression into the (de)merits of the Humber Bridge.

[1165Valour]

One interesting possibility would be the South Eastern Railway gaining a line of their own to Portsmouth. The promoters of the Direct Line considered the SER at one point, if only to make the LSWR somewhat more reasonable.

[rodent279]

What if the GW and LSW had buried the hatchet sometime in the 1890's, and either merged, or agreed to cooperate on WoE traffic? Would the LSW route via the Mule have become the primary route between London, Exeter & points west? The GW would have saved a boatload in constructing & upgrading the various lines that now constitute the direct Reading-Taunton line.

[whart57]

47 minutes ago, GWRSwindon said:

One interesting possibility would be the South Eastern Railway gaining a line of their own to Portsmouth. The promoters of the Direct Line considered the SER at one point, if only to make the LSWR somewhat more reasonable.

 

An SER line to Brighton would be less of a stretch. It was coincidence that the SER was in Guildford for the Portsmouth Direct promoters to even consider them and its unlikely the SER shareholders would have let the Board go ahead. The shareholders were unhappy enough with the Reading line.

 

The possibility of an SER line into Brighton was one reason for the LBSCR plugging every gap in the South Downs with a line of their own. The LBSCR had probably plugged all potential routes from the east fairly early on, but the backdoor was open until 1862 or so. If the SER had been more adventurous it could have worked on the promoters of the line from Leatherhead to Horsham and then on via Shoreham to reach Brighton. The SER's Reading branch crossed this line at Boxhill - today's Dorking Deepdene - so it wouldn't have been such an outlier as a Portsmouth line.

 

Horsham SECR might make an interesting pre-Group layout. I would place this imaginary station to the West of the town as against the real LBSCR station on the NE side, and give it the typical SER features of wooden clapboard station building and signal box but possibly not the staggered platforms. You'd almost certainly see SECR Cs and Hs, but probably not Ds. Unfortunately there are no Bachman or Hornby Os, O1s or Fs which would be the core locomotive classes.

[john new]

On 04/01/2022 at 18:40, Northmoor said:

This @whart57is why I find Imaginary Railways more interesting than just Imaginary Locomotives.  The latter would have to exist for a reason; as you've described, usually an imaginary or planned-but-not-built railway would have been built instead of something else, not in addition to it, so you have to work out what happens to the place now bypassed.

 

My own favourite "What-if?" is Mathry, which instead of a very small village would have become a small town, had Brunel been able to built his port for Ireland at Abermawr instead of Fishguard (actually Goodwick).  This would have happened had the Irish Potato Famine not intervened and there are about three million reasons why that would have been preferable.  As well as Fishguard Harbour not being built, the GWR would never have built a railway to Neyland, most of the North Pembrokeshire & Fishguard Railway would never have been built - as there was no source of traffic for it to connect to - and the branch to Haverfordwest and Milford Haven would have probably remained single track.  However, it would have enabled the city of St. Davids to join the railway map, as the branch from Mathry would have been a third shorter than otherwise necessary.

Brunel (I think he was the surveyor) was behind a couple of other proposals for Irish traffic via Porthdinllaen instead of Holyhead. Stephenson’s alternative built instead. 

[StephenB]

I’ve always liked the idea of the SER reaching Oxford at the same time as the Met. Bearing in mind the latters dealings with LNER, you have the possibility of all four of the Big Four together at one location.

 

Stephen

[whart57]

I've done a little messing around to give an idea what the rail network around Horsham might have looked like in Edwardian times if the SER line suggested had come to pass.

 

[DenysW]

Sadly, I think that is the correct thinking for the time. Mutual antagonism and (to a lesser extent) cost would have sent the SER from Warnham into its own Horsham West instead of (as actually built by LBSCR) into Horsham Junction, a common station, and then Itchingfield Junction to Southwater.

[Flying Fox 34F]

Looking at the Woodhead comments on here reminded me of an idea I pencilled out years ago.  What if the London Extension had not got approval and the GCR stayed the MSLR.  The Nottingham rail network would have looked rather different.  I came up with the notion that the LNER decided to electrify from Sheffield Victoria to Nottingham London Road, via Annesley and the Leen Valley via Colwick.  Nottingham Low Level would need to be remodelled to a minimum of 6 platforms.  I calculated there was just enough space, between the Warehouses and the LMS lines.

Could make an interesting model.

 

Paul

[whart57]

3 hours ago, DenysW said:

Sadly, I think that is the correct thinking for the time. Mutual antagonism and (to a lesser extent) cost would have sent the SER from Warnham into its own Horsham West instead of (as actually built by LBSCR) into Horsham Junction, a common station, and then Itchingfield Junction to Southwater.

 

"Correct" thinking or not, it is that inability to share stations that creates the opportunities for imaginary railways

[DenysW]

2 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

... What if the London Extension had not got approval and the GCR stayed the MSLR.  The Nottingham rail network would have looked rather different. ...

Similarly, what if the MSLR (and the Midland Railway) had been forced to share their route from (approximately) Sutton-in-Ashfield to Rugby, with the GCR only building new from Rugby Midland to Marylebone? Looking at the map, there's a lot of route duplication from North Notts to about Trent Junction, and if you are sharing - but adding extra tracks-  then taking over at Leicester (technically Wigston Junction) and running down the old Midland main line to Rugby also looks less radical. Two extra platforms at Leicester, but probably nothing extra at Loughborough, and you bypass Nottingham and Derby for extra speed.

[Northmoor]

Yesterday I found a copy of Tom Clift's "The Central Wales Line" in a charity shop.  In this photo album there's a fascinating photo of equipment stored on the disused Up platform at Llandrindod Wells, with a caption referring to something I've never heard about and which offers a fascinating "What if?" scenario.

 

The stored equipment and materials were for a proposed Centralised Traffic Control Scheme; this would have involved a new signalbox at Llandrindod controlling the whole route from Llandovery to Craven Arms (replacing 18 signalboxes and all crossings being converted to AHB), the whole route fully track-circuited.  The £676K scheme which was approved by the BTC in 1960, would have allowed a significant capacity improvement to cater for the projected increase in freight traffic, but approval was subsequently reversed and the equipment lay abandoned unused for two years until removed.

 

As the caption says, it would be interesting to speculate how the role of the line would have been different had the scheme been implemented.  Presumably it would have been the route for steel from Port Talbot and Llanelli to the North West and oil from Llandarcy or Milford Haven, all removing slower moving trains from the constrained Bridgend to Cardiff route (so would Bridgend to Aberthaw have closed as a result?).  Likewise would summer passenger services like Manchester-Tenby have been routed via the Central Wales Line?

 

Instead of the long quiet branch line with four short trains each way that the CWL became, it could have resembled something more like the S&C after WCML electrification, or the Salisbury-Exeter route after rationalisation, with heavy trains being scheduled through long single-track sections.

[The Johnster]

I think the Central Wales would need to have been doubled to make a significant difference to traffic levels between Bridgend and Cardiff.  The Vale of Glamorgan was needed for the Tondu-Aberthaw power station traffic, and was still carrying passengers in 1960; it was later used by the Blaenant-Aberthaw MGRs.  But, yes, increased capacity on the CWL might have seen one or two oil trains diverted that way, and in those days there was a healthy coal trade plying it’s way behind 8Fs.  Tenby summer traffic tended to be from the Midlands, though, and run via Gloucester and the SWML; holidaymakers in the NW tended to go to the North Wales resorts, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Llandudno. 
 

Not sure of the CWL’s potential for Port Talbot steel traffic, but the then new strip mills at Trostre and Velindre (period spelling) would have been well placed for exploiting the upgrade, and they could be regarded as satellite plants to Port Talbot, itself heavily invested in with the longest rolling mill in Europe, and of course Margam hump. 
 

Apart from the single line/passing loops aspect, there is the load limiting factor of Sugar Loaf summit, and the prospect of the Waterston-Albion tanks going that way in the 70s, 1,600tons trailing behind double-headed 37s, is interesting.  But in the event, the post-Beeching railway wanted rid of the CWL and local opposition, which successfully campaigned to retain it, was focussed on passenger traffic.  The matter became highly politically charged, and the Secretary of State For Wales in the 70s, George Thomas (I delivered newspapers to his mam) famously told told the PM, Jim Callaghan (bought me a beer in Bindle’s club in Barry once) (I didn’t buy him one back) ‘but, Prime Minister, you can’t close it, it runs through five marginal constituencies’!!!  Delivered in his rather whiny and somewhat gay Tonypandy accent, this was high political comedy!  He later became Lord Tonypandy. 
 

At that time the line was operated by ‘power twins’ of Class 123 Swindon Cross Country dmus with headlamps for the unfenced section at Sugar Loaf; some Landore 37s were fitted with them as well.  These were locally purchased Lucas car rallying spotlights on mountings welded to the fronts of the dmus and locos. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by The Johnster

[Northmoor]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I think the Central Wales would need to have been doubled to make a significant difference to traffic levels between Bridgend and Cardiff.  The Vale of Glamorgan was needed for the Tondu-Aberthaw power station traffic, and was still carrying passengers in 1960; it was later used by the Blaenant-Aberthaw MGRs.  But, yes, increased capacity on the CWL might have seen one or two oil trains diverted that way, and in those days there was a healthy coal trade plying it’s way behind 8Fs.  Tenby summer traffic tended to be from the Midlands, though, and run via Gloucester and the SWML; holidaymakers in the NW tended to go to the North Wales resorts, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Llandudno. 
 

Not sure of the CWL’s potential for Port Talbot steel traffic, but the then new strip mills at Trostre and Velindre (period spelling) would have been well placed for exploiting the upgrade, and they could be regarded as satellite plants to Port Talbot, itself heavily invested in with the longest rolling mill in Europe, and of course Margam hump. 
 

Apart from the single line/passing loops aspect, there is the load limiting factor of Sugar Loaf summit, and the prospect of the Waterston-Albion tanks going that way in the 70s, 1,600tons trailing behind double-headed 37s, is interesting.  But in the event, the post-Beeching railway wanted rid of the CWL and local opposition, which successfully campaigned to retain it, was focussed on passenger traffic.  The matter became highly politically charged, and the Secretary of State For Wales in the 70s, George Thomas (I delivered newspapers to his mam) famously told told the PM, Jim Callaghan (bought me a beer in Bindle’s club in Barry once) (I didn’t buy him one back) ‘but, Prime Minister, you can’t close it, it runs through five marginal constituencies’!!!  Delivered in his rather whiny and somewhat gay Tonypandy accent, this was high political comedy!  He later became Lord Tonypandy. 
 

At that time the line was operated by ‘power twins’ of Class 123 Swindon Cross Country dmus with headlamps for the unfenced section at Sugar Loaf; some Landore 37s were fitted with them as well.  These were locally purchased Lucas car rallying spotlights on mountings welded to the fronts of the dmus and locos. 

I'm sure you're right @The Johnster; a modernised CWL wouldn't have removed more than a few trains a day from the SWML, but even that would have made the CWL considerably busier.  There already were double track sections in 1960; a short stretch between Pantyffynon and Ammanford, another around Llandrindod and from Knighton to Craven Arms.  Plus of course there were passing loops at Llandeilo, Llandovery and Llanwrtyd.  That should have been sufficient to signal through a few freight trains per day and a summer Saturdays-only each way in addition to the usual four stopping services each way.  Still a nice what-if.....

[Northmoor]

I know I've said this in the Imaginary Locomotives thread before and possibly this one, but if only the BRB had been more joined up, not signing contracts to build locos for traffics another department was planning to abandon.  While the CWL upgrade I've mentioned above would probably have become a "White Elephant", had all the new rolling stock not exhausted the money (and remaining government enthusiasm), similar infrastructure improvement and development would have meant a very different future for few lines:

• York - Hull via Market Weighton; this line was already using DMUs and busy, the planned modernisation of the many level crossings offered large savings but was cancelled;
• Hayling Island branch; the line actually more than covered its operating costs even with steam, but funding to replace the Langstone bridge was refused.  It could easily support an hourly DEMU shuttle to Portsmouth;
• The Waverley Route was always dominated by traffic North of Hawick and Galashiels.  Singled South of Hawick, perhaps with a couple of passing loops, it could have retained the usefulness of a through route (and singling could have eased the curves on the climb/descent of Whitrope).  Even only retaining the line North of Galashiels, some rationalisation should have been attempted but wasn't.

 

[Player of trains]

On tonight's episode of Alec what on earth are you smoking and where can I get some, the North Ross & Sutherland Railway. 

 

I've had a lot of imaginary railway companies rattling about in my head for a while now and I'm by far from the first to base anything around the variety of North Highlands proposals but they've always seemed like a fun basis for a large narrow gauge system in the British isles after the NWNGR flopped spending all its money on a power station and the bottom fell out of the slate industry. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1OpeuB3LjbAEYXU9jFwWgI2jxBE_RpDg&usp=sharing

 

 

This is blatantly daft scenario but I'm imagining a situation where the stars aligned after some clever political maneuvering by Sir John Fowler to get the original Ullapool and Garve railway built as a 3ft railway with transhipment facilities which caused a mini scramble and boom as the herring industry took off and opening up much of the Highlands for mineral exploitation. By 1901 the railway had reached Durness and access the larger fishing ports on the west coast.

 

The grandest expansion would be in 1914 when the NR&SR was expanded as a military project between the Royal Engineers and the Royal Navy to improve the access to northern sea lochs, striking northwards from Lairg coming off the once independent Lairg & Laxford Railway (1894) up to Tongue following the route of the modern A836 before swinging eastwards to Thurso meeting a construction party who started west in 1914.

 

Fish traffic remains consistent and despite some pruning during the 30s and 60s much of the route survives to be grouped, nationalised then dropped onto a franchisee, saved for the modern day by a strange flavoured mix of social need, tourism and fish. So who fancies large Nasmyth Donegal tanks in British rail Blue alongside some 3ft gauge sprinters?

Edited December 5, 2022 by Player of trains

[whart57]

On 17/10/2022 at 21:21, Northmoor said:

• York - Hull via Market Weighton; this line was already using DMUs and busy, the planned modernisation of the many level crossings offered large savings but was cancelled;
• Hayling Island branch; the line actually more than covered its operating costs even with steam, but funding to replace the Langstone bridge was refused.  It could easily support an hourly DEMU shuttle to Portsmouth;
• The Waverley Route was always dominated by traffic North of Hawick and Galashiels.  Singled South of Hawick, perhaps with a couple of passing loops, it could have retained the usefulness of a through route (and singling could have eased the curves on the climb/descent of Whitrope).  Even only retaining the line North of Galashiels, some rationalisation should have been attempted but wasn't.

 

The former Horsham to Shoreham line would be useful right now with its stations serving the large housing estates at Southwater, Partridge Green and Henfield that weren't there in the 1960s when Beeching did his stuff.

 

I offer this suggestion for a small BLT set in post-steam days. Instead of closing the whole line, BR(S) took note of plans to build a lot of houses in Southwater (which appeared in the 1970s) and not only retained the line as far as Southwater but also laid in the third rail. The brick and tile works by Lennox Wood (today's Southwater Country Park) would also continue to send out product by rail for years to come.

The basic train service would be a London service (Victoria or London Bridge) carried out by a four coach unit that would join with another four coach unit coming up the Arun Valley from Littlehampton at Horsham, with extra trains in the peaks. At some point in the day a suitable loco would come to collect stuff from the brickworks. Wouldn't be too big in N at all.

[KeithMacdonald]

While I was putting together material for another topic (Bridport Branch Line), the Disused Stations page mentioned a few schemes that never got fulfilled, but provide plenty of scope for items here.

 

Quote

A number of proposals were put forward in the 1840s to connect the small Dorset town of Bridport by railway to a main line. The Wiltshire, Somerset & Weymouth Railway was to run between Weymouth and Chippenham, passing through various towns, including Bridport. The Bristol & English Channel Railway would link Bridport with Stolford: near Bridgwater (Somerset). A further proposal was for a line from Bridport to Watchet: in Somerset, and there was also a plan for a line from Maiden Newton to Exeter via Bridport, Seaton and Honiton. However none of these schemes went ahead. Eventually the reluctance of main line companies to provide a link to Bridport encouraged a syndicate of Bridport residents to undertake the task themselves.

 

Also:

 

Quote

Shortly after the opening of the branch the Bridport Company considered plans for its extension. In 1859 West Dorset Railway scheme would continue the line to Charmouth: and in 1860 there was a scheme for the Bridport, Lyme Regis & Axminster Railway. These were not proceeded with, and in 1863 a proposed line from Clapton Bridge (Crewkerne) to Bridport Harbour was opposed by the Bridport Company.

 

Ref : http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bridport_west_bay/index.shtml

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by KeithMacdonald
typo

[KeithMacdonald]

Here's my guess for the route of the West Dorset Railway scheme to continue the line from Bridport to Charmouth.

 

[Ramblin Rich]

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Here's my guess for the route of the West Dorset Railway scheme to continue the line from Bridport to Charmouth.

 

Of course, we all know that line was built in narrow gauge as per @DLT's Charmouth and Bridport Town layouts