Aberdeen Kirkhill T&RSD

[Dunedin]

3 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

ps - I assume you had considered one of the computer based automation programs and rejected that approach?

I considered it briefly and in fact did wonder about using the Raspberry Pi for this, but the Minipanel seemed to offer a much easier way to go, which was more compact and meant hauling less kit around to exhibitions, plus it's cheaper.

 

I think one day, if I ever get endless time, the computer based approach would be an interesting project, but for now, life is too short!

I have now managed to get the Minipanel to do exactly what I want it to do. It just needed some help, that's all. That is the subject of my next post.

[Andy Keane]

7 hours ago, Dunedin said:

I know the consisting trick will work because I've tested it and I might even use it on Kirkhill.

 

I think your proposal is certainly more ambitious than mine, but I understand the concept and it should be possible to get it to work. The challenge I can see you having is getting consistent performance from different locos and therefore getting them all to stop accurately in the same place. I'm sure you can get the same loco to stop accurately with some trial and error - repeatability, but I think the challenge is achieving reproducibility with different locos. I find that even what appear to be identical locos, with apparently identical decoders, with the same CV settings still behave differently. Finding decoders with the same version number is also a struggle - we use Lenz Standards on our Heljan Class 47s and there are umpteen different versions of Standard decoder and they all behave differently, not to mention differences in performance of individual locos. I've started using Zimo decoders on the HST power cars so I can consist them reproducibly - CV95 is a reverse trim that assists with speed matching, but even then, accelerations can vary through the speed range.

I've tried playing with the CV for constant braking distance but unsuccessfully so far.

Another option which is similar to analogue would be to use a relay to cut the track power to the section where you want to stop. That would stop your train dead and probably always in the same place, whatever the loco. If it's in a fiddle yard, a dead stop shouldn't matter provided its at low speed because you're after accuracy, not realism.

Something to consider is that you have quite a few sensors - 15 if I counted correctly? Each of these will use up a Minipanel input and there are 30 inputs, so that's half of them. If you program using continuous memory, you will be starting from Input 16 - maybe 17 if you need an input to trigger the start of the sequence like I do, so you would have 14 inputs left for programming, that's only 56 lines of macro. Selecting and starting a loco uses two lines of macro; stopping it uses a third.

I think you may find that to control your whole fiddle yard is beyond the capacity of one Minipanel. You can of course add another and possibly a third. NCE Powercab or Smart Boosters will drive up to six cabs (addresses 2-7) and three accessories such as USB interface, Minipanels etc. (addresses 8-10). This means the maximum number of Minipanels in use at any one time is three, provided you aren't using a USB interface or other accessory on the cab bus.

I use a second Minipanel to control the signalling - to be the subject of a later post and I use the USB interface so I can drive locos using my phone via JMRI.

There is another trick you can use - which I did to get around lack of capacity in the Minipanel, which is to use macros in the NCE cab/booster system to control accessories and then use the Minipanel to call up the macros. This will save you some lines of code in the Minipanel, but the number of macros is limited to 16 and each macro can control up to eight accessories. I'll cover that in a later post regarding signalling and route setting too, but hopefully it gives you an idea of how you can manage a series of trade-offs between decoder route setting, Minipanel macros and system macros to achieve what you're trying to do.

 

Is it easier than using an Arduino? I don't know to be honest because I haven't tried that. I have a Raspberry Pi which I got for the signalling project, but that seemed too much like hard work. Certainly the programming interface for the NCE bits is easier because it's all menu-driven, but it probably has more limitations.

Incidentally, I use the Pi along with the USB interface to run JMRI so I can use smartphones as wireless cabs.

 

Hope this helps.

This really helps, many thanks. I too had thought about an analog power cut to stop over the decoupler but its rather brutish. My alternative is to use a pair of decoupler magnets so the exact precision is not an issue but of course it will boil down to experiments.  I may cut down on sensors or use a seperate mini panel as you say and I like the idea of calling up cab macros from the mini-panel. I guess provided one keeps careful notes it should all be manageable and as you say it is all ultimately menu driven.

Andy

[Dunedin]

On 27/07/2021 at 08:18, Andy Keane said:

This really helps, many thanks. I too had thought about an analog power cut to stop over the decoupler but its rather brutish. My alternative is to use a pair of decoupler magnets so the exact precision is not an issue but of course it will boil down to experiments.  I may cut down on sensors or use a seperate mini panel as you say and I like the idea of calling up cab macros from the mini-panel. I guess provided one keeps careful notes it should all be manageable and as you say it is all ultimately menu driven.

Andy

Glad it helps - there is more to come.

 

There is another solution to your uncoupling issue in terms of having to stop accurately over the magnet: I fitted my Class 08s with onboard remote uncoupling controlled by a function key on the cab handset. See Precimodels:  

 

https://precimodels.com/en/

 

These use a small servo to open the knuckle on the Kadee via a short length of thread. It looks a little Heath Robinson at first, but I can vouch for it and say it works really well:

 

 

With some decoders such as Zimo, there is a group of CVs that control the whole uncoupling sequence (squeeze in, operate the servo, pull away, stop and release the servo) - all from one function key. That would save you several lines of macro.

 

Having used them successfully on the Class 08s, I'm now thinking of fitting them to the HST power cars so I can do power car changes without the need to stop over an uncoupler. On the HST, I reckon the servo can be concealed within the air reservoirs. I don't use Zimo decoders on the 08s because I favour the excellent slow speed running you get from Lenz Gold decoders plus the Power 1 stay-alive units, so I just wire the servos to the Function 1 output. Lenz don't support auto uncoupling unfortunately (or not on my decoder versions), but using the appropriate decoders could be an option in your case.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Dunedin
Re-inserted missing image.

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Dunedin said:

Glad it helps - there is more to come.

 

There is another solution to your uncoupling issue in terms of having to stop accurately over the magnet: I fitted my Class 08s with onboard remote uncoupling controlled by a function key on the cab handset. See Precimodels:  

 

https://precimodels.com/en/

 

These use a small servo to open the knuckle on the Kadee via a short length of thread. It looks a little Heath Robinson at first, but I can vouch for it and say it works really well:

 

 

With some decoders such as Zimo, there is a group of CVs that control the whole uncoupling sequence (squeeze in, operate the servo, pull away, stop and release the servo) - all from one function key. That would save you several lines of macro.

 

Having used them successfully on the Class 08s, I'm now thinking of fitting them to the HST power cars so I can do power car changes without the need to stop over an uncoupler. On the HST, I reckon the servo can be concealed within the air reservoirs. I don't use Zimo decoders on the 08s because I favour the excellent slow speed running you get from Lenz Gold decoders plus the Power 1 stay-alive units, so I just wire the servos to the Function 1 output. Lenz don't support auto uncoupling unfortunately (or not on my decoder versions), but using the appropriate decoders could be an option in your case.

Golly! - the video is very convincing - as you say it looks heath robinson but maybe thats the answer. I assume you fit them to both ends and operate of a single decoder pin?

thanks

Andy

Edited July 27, 2021 by Andy Keane

[Dunedin]

17 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Golly! - the video is very convincing - as you say it looks heath robinson but maybe thats the answer. I assume you fit them to both ends and operate of a single decoder pin?

thanks

Andy

It works exactly as per the video - and I got it to work with the entire operation from one function with a Zimo decoder, but the slow running with the 08 just wasn't as good as it is with the Lenz Gold plus Power 1.

Where I've fitted servos to both ends, I've used two different function pins and mapped them to functions 1 & 2, but you could run both from one function.

It can be a little fiddly tying the thread off, but I've got it to work now on three locos and it's so much easier than having to stop on the uncoupler every time; you can just drop vehicles where you want. It also assists with coupling on curves too.

[Dunedin]

Picking up where we left off with the route setting and automation:

 

I decided that if we were going to be able to make use of the automation, the system had to have a means of performing a self-check between setting a route and starting the next train, so I came up with a scheme for route proving. This began as a simple concept: each point in the fiddle yard on the ladder has a corresponding point at the other end of the ladder and they have to be set in pairs (one at each end) for the route to be set because trains leave from and return to the same road on the ladder. Each point has a Peco switch attached to the point motor in order to change the frog polarity. When originally built, we had Peco double microswitches on the points at one end and single sliding switches on those at the other. By changing the single switches to double microswitches, there was a spare changeover switch on each point that could be used to detect its position. By daisy-chaining them together in pairs, end to end, it was possible to create a proving circuit. This could then feed into the spare 8th input on the Minipanel. An extra line in the macro for each part of the sequence would instruct the Minipanel to wait until it saw Input 8 grounded before starting the next train. The circuit for the fiddle yard route proving is shown below:

 

To explain the way it works:

Wire 2700 would be wired to Input 8 on the Minipanel; wire 2200 would go to Minipanel Ground. With all points set correctly, Input 8 will be connected to ground and the route would be proved. (Ignore the references to a relay panel for now if you will - this comes later- the purpose of this is to get the route proving concept across.)

There are five roads in the fiddle yard ladder controlled by the DCC with points numbered 1-5 at the left hand (south) end and 18-22 at the right hand (north) end. For convention, if a point is set straight, it is normal (N), if it is set for the diverging route, it is reversed (R). Points at the south end are managed by Decoder SMD84 (1) and those at the north end by SMD84 (2).

 

The diagram below shows the point numbers:

 

 

For the first road on the ladder to be set therefore, points 1 and 22 must both be normal – i.e. 1N + 22N. In decoder speak, this is Route 101R – this is the nomenclature given to the first route described by the Team Digital SMD84 route CV list. Remember, each decoder only sets half the route the way I’ve done this – either the north half or the south half.

 

In the proving circuit, the switches represent the microswitches on the point motors that I’ve used for the route proving. The frog microswitches aren’t shown in the diagram because they are irrelevant here.

For the route to be proved, the switches on points 1 & 22 must agree and current flows down wire 101, as shown below.

 

For the second road on the ladder to be set, points 1, 2, 21 & 22 must all be reversed – i.e. 1R + 2R + 21R + 22R (Route 101N). In this case, for the route to be proved, the switches on points 1, 2, 21 & 22 must agree and current then flows down wire 201 as shown below.

 

It works in the same way all the way down the ladder, so for the fifth route, 103R it requires 1R + 2N + 3N + 4N + 5R + 18R + 19N + 20N + 21N + 22R. Provided they all set correctly, the route is proved if current flows down wire 501 as shown below:

 

If any point fails to set correctly, the route won’t be proved and the Minipanel won’t start the next train. It is possible that two corresponding points will fail to set and a false route will be proved, but this is unlikely because the points at each end are being set by different decoders working independently of each other and experience shows that point mechanical failure is random. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Dunedin
Re-inserted missing images.

[Andy Keane]

Dumb question - do you know if its possible to define macros with JMRI and upload these to the NCE system as its easier to program route on the computer screen rather than on the ProCab throttle itself.

thanks

Andy

[Andy Keane]

On 21/08/2021 at 17:19, Andy Keane said:

Dumb question - do you know if its possible to define macros with JMRI and upload these to the NCE system as its easier to program route on the computer screen rather than on the ProCab throttle itself.

thanks

Andy

I have solved my problem. It turns out you cannot directly upload JMRI routes to NCE macros. But I have written a short code to read the JMRI xml file which contains the routes and then write an NCE macro backup file which JMRI will then happily send to the NCE cabs. This allows me to develop routes with the rather nicer JMRI interface and upload them to my controllers without the tedium of the ProCab menu system.

[5BarVT]

Skills in software engineering have their uses!

Paul.

[Waverley47708]

Found this on YouTube which may be of interest.   

 

The speed the train goes through the carriage washer was a bit faster than I had thought.

 

 

 

 

[Flood]

Very useful!

The sleeper rakes would have been Euston ones, with slightly different formations, from May 1988 but it is still a great video - especially the freight movements.

[Andy Keane]

I am about to start using AIUs with my NCE system. Quick question that this group might be able to answer. What is the maximun number of AIUs I can have? I have a Power Pro with a Procab and a Powercab attached.

I think the limit is goverend by adress range. My reading is I can attach AIUs certainly to addresses 8, 9 and 10, but possibly also to 4 and 5 since I have only two cabs connected, giving a maximum of 5 AIUs in my case. Can anyone confirm if this is so?

regards

Andy

[Andy Keane]

I am also finding that JMRI seems not to read switches above number seven of the AIU over the the RS232 serial port of my PowerPro - again any advice would be mostb welcome.

[Flood]

Well it's been well over a year since my last post on Kirkhill.

 

We were due to be at Doncaster last year but due to the possible effect of Covid on the personal circumstances for one of us we decided that it was still too early at that time to rejoin the exhibition circuit. We are due an invite from the Bristol show in the next few years, most probably from Doncaster as well and if any other exhibitions are interested in having us please do get in touch. As we are now a few years older we don't plan on exhibiting a large number of times a year, probably two or three times if possible. In addition this will hopefully ensure that we not boring the public by seeming to appear at every large show.

 

Apologies to Andy Keane regarding his questions on automation. Glenn has been on RMweb very rarely this last year and a considerable amount of his time has been spent working away from home giving him less time to spend with family and even less time to spend on his hobbies. He has said that he is now able to spend more time back in the model railway scene.

 

We have made very little changes to Kirkhill in the meantime. The automation process is a resounding success with some fail-safe attributes if things do not go as planned, e.g. a train will only set off if the complete route is set, if a point fails to throw the train will not start to move. Two yard towers were purchased from ebay to replace one tower which had suffered over the years and another as a spare. All the lights in the lighting towers have now been checked and replaced as required so all the individual lights work.

 

I made a video of the overnight automated sequence last night for those of you who are interested. Just to warn you all, it does run to 10 minutes 18 secs long for 5 trains. The link is posted below, you may well wish to scan through it just to get the general idea.

 

As always please ask any questions and we will endeavour to answer what we can. Happy modelling to you all.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Flood

[Andy Keane]

11 minutes ago, Flood said:

Well it's been well over a year since my last post on Kirkhill.

 

We were due to be at Doncaster last year but due to the possible effect of Covid on the personal circumstances for one of us we decided that it was still too early at that time to rejoin the exhibition circuit. We are due an invite from the Bristol show in the next few years, most probably from Doncaster as well and if any other exhibitions are interested in having us please do get in touch. As we are now a few years older we don't plan on exhibiting a large number of times a year, probably two or three times if possible. In addition this will hopefully ensure that we not boring the public by seeming to appear at every large show.

 

Apologies to Andy Keane regarding his questions on automation. Glenn has been on RMweb very rarely this last year and a considerable amount of his time has been spent working away from home giving him less time to spend with family and even less time to spend on his hobbies. He has said that he is now able to spend more time back in the model railway scene.

 

We have made very little changes to Kirkhill in the meantime. The automation process is a resounding success with some fail-safe attributes if things do not go as planned, e.g. a train will only set off if the complete route is set, if a point fails to throw the train will not start to move. Two yard towers were purchased from ebay to replace one tower which had suffered over the years and another as a spare. All the lights in the lighting towers have now been checked and replaced as required so all the individual lights work.

 

I made a video of the overnight automated sequence last night for those of you who are interested. Just to warn you all, it does run to 10 minutes 18 secs long for 5 trains. The link is posted below, you may well wish to scan through it just to get the general idea.

 

As always please ask any questions and we will endeavour to answer what we can. Happy modelling to you all.

 

 

Very pleased you are back and posting. I may plague you with questions if you can bear it.

Andy

[Flood]

Do you remember when we were all* told to stay indoors due to a virus called Covid 19? Back on 23th March 2020 I bought on ebay the item below:

(* some of us had to work through the whole event)

 

A mere 3 years, 2 months and 10 days later, Glenn and  I were finally able to do a batch of test running of the tamper on Kirkhill last night. The Tenshodo SPUD isn't great with a Lenz Silver chip, starting and stopping from 0 to 1 is a bit abrupt, so Glenn says he might try a Zimo or change the motor to a Black Beetle. Even so, it trundles around the layout at about a scale 40 to 50 mph which is more than adequet. Plus, I think, it does look rather nice now, after Alex and Glenn improved my poor initial repaint and all the transfers etc have been added.

 

 

 

 

As always, thanks for taking an interest and please feel free to comment.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Flood

[Patriot87003]

The tamper looks great! I hope it’s prototypical … with random hydraulic leaks!

 

Do you have any forthcoming exhibitions in the diary? Kirkhill is one of my favourite layouts on the exhibition circuit and would be great to see it in action again soon 👍

[Flood]

5 hours ago, Patriot87003 said:

The tamper looks great! I hope it’s prototypical … with random hydraulic leaks!

 

Do you have any forthcoming exhibitions in the diary? Kirkhill is one of my favourite layouts on the exhibition circuit and would be great to see it in action again soon 👍

Thank you for your kind words. We are all getting a little older but hopefully there will be some exhibitions lined up for next year. I'll have a chat with Glenn and pass on your appreciation.

[Flood]

As also posted in the Accurascale Mk2C thread here is the latest addition for Aberdeen Kirkhill:

 

Mk2C BSO 9440 as used in the "spare" push-pull set which was diagrammed to work 07.10 Perth - Edinburgh, 13.30 Edinburgh - Glasgow QS, 15.00 Glasgow QS - Edinburgh, 17.13 Edinburgh - Dundee

 

Conversion from an Airfix Mk2D BSO, using Extreme Etchings Mk2 pressure vent window frames, by myself. Exterior painting and transfers by Glenn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Enjoy.

 

[billywhizz]

Looks great Graham. Very tidy! 

[Flood]

The next wagon for Aberdeen Kirkhill.

 

Norsk Hydro curtain-side IPA.

Copyright Huw Millington

 

Two Rivarossi HR6497 and 34 saw cuts later...

 

 

As the Rivarossi models are to the continental loading gauge, but HO, the height and width are near enough smack-on for British loading gauge in OO. I've got a set of cast Y25 bogies and the buffers, I just need to tidy up the joins and scratchbuild a chassis and some ends now.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Flood

[billywhizz]

Hi @Flood when is Aberdeen Kirkhill next out at an exhibition ? 
Cheers. 
Bill. 

[Flood]

37 minutes ago, billywhizz said:

Hi @Flood when is Aberdeen Kirkhill next out at an exhibition ? 
Cheers. 
Bill. 

Not sure at the moment Bill. We are due to go to Doncaster and Bristol at some time but nothing has been decided yet.

 

We are having a Kirkhill Open Day on the weekend of September 30th/October 1st, you're more than welcome to come and join in. I'll p.m. my phone number to you so we can WhatsApp, I've invited @BigAndy but he's not got back to me yet.

[Flood]

I've still to progress with the curtainside wagon but Glenn has been busy weathering my TCVs. Although they worked to Edinburgh and not Aberdeen I feel they certainly add something to the layout.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Flood

[Flood]

Had a play on Kirkhill tonight.

 

A totally unrealistic scenario but is was still good fun to run...