When the last train is cancelled

[RfDforever]

London Midland have a long-running driver shortage which results in short notice train cancellations. This has recently included the last Liverpool-Birmingham and the last Worcester; tonight, the 2254 Birmingham-Northampton is cancelled; NRES helpfully advises that the alternative is at 08.06 tomorrow,

What happens to the passenger intending to catch the service? I am thinking not just at New Street, where there might just  possibly be staff around, but at intermediate stations where the only staff, the booking clerk booked off about 12 hours before? New Street is, I think, closed overnight - are you evicted into the street? How common is this on other TOCs, and what do they do when it happens?

[great central]

Normally a road transport replacement is provided, a bus if it's busy or maybe a taxi or two for a lightly used service.

[Mark Saunders]

Normally the last one is the one you try to run!

 

Mark Saunders

[RANGERS]

London Midland have a long-running driver shortage which results in short notice train cancellations. This has recently included the last Liverpool-Birmingham and the last Worcester; tonight, the 2254 Birmingham-Northampton is cancelled; NRES helpfully advises that the alternative is at 08.06 tomorrow,

What happens to the passenger intending to catch the service? I am thinking not just at New Street, where there might just  possibly be staff around, but at intermediate stations where the only staff, the booking clerk booked off about 12 hours before? New Street is, I think, closed overnight - are you evicted into the street? How common is this on other TOCs, and what do they do when it happens?

 

In my experience, there's very little in place to cover such incidence.

 

I've experienced this twice on local trains from Kings X to Peterborough when the last trains were cancelled, one in FCC days due to the lack of a driver which left about 100 customers stranded. FCC staff did eventually solve the problem by putting everyone in taxis, must have looked odd to anyone on the A1 as a fleet of Addison Lee Chrysler Voyagers passed one after another in the middle of the night! We travelled back to Peterborough direct but those heading for intermediate stations presumably picked up any  passengers there who were heading North.

 

The second time was more recently and was the result of an inbound service due to form the last train being delayed on a night when an engineering possession was in force and resulted in the corresponding last train running late and being terminated at Stevenage as the possession was in force by the time it reached there. We weren't told this until the train had left Kings X and the conductor couldn't initially offer much in the way of advice, all we were told was that we should change at Stevenage! On reaching Stevenage there was a staff member on hand with two taxis but as it was a Saturday and the train was packed, she seemed overwhelmed to have 100+ customers all asking what was in place to get them home, evidently they'd expected less than 10! Much discussion ensued but after the best part of an hour with lame promises of coaches but little progress apparent, when a seven seat taxi pulled up on an adjacent rank, seven of us took it back to Peterborough, the cost was about a tenner each. Despite my best efforts, GN refused to refund any of the cab fare as they'd not arranged it and claimed that a alternative transport had been provided. It may have been but that might have been the first train of the morning, it was worth the tenner to be tucked p in bed by then.

 

In reality, I do have a degree of sympathy for them in these circumstances, its difficult to find coaches at short notice, virtually impossible overnight, operators may have vehicles but drivers will already be allocated to the following day and/ or on rest from the previous so taxis usually are the only option.

Edited October 28, 2017 by RANGERS

[BoD]

I sometimes use a 'rover' type ticket either a one day one or occasionally a seven day one. I have often wondered what would happen if I got stranded due to problems with non running trains for whatever reason. What would be my position be as I don't have a specific ticket from A to B? How could I show that I needed to get back to B that evening?

[Mark Saunders]

I sometimes use a 'rover' type ticket either a one day one or occasionally a seven day one. I have often wondered what would happen if I got stranded due to problems with non running trains for whatever reason. What would be my position be as I don't have a specific ticket from A to B? How could I show that I needed to get back to B that evening?

 

Should be no problem a valid ticket is a valid ticket!

 

As soon as you realise there is a problem talk to a member of staff and explain.

[Compound2632]

Not exactly a cancellation story, more replacement service: Back in 1993, I missed the overnight train from Frankfurt for Warsaw and Krakow - my train from Paris was delayed by a problem with the OHLE near Mannheim. I was one of about a dozen passengers in the same situation. A special S-Bahn train was arranged to take us from the Hauptbahnhof to the Suedbahnhof, where a special was arranged to take us on, as far as Dresden, we were told. In fact it took us as far as Bebra, which I gathered was the former frontier between DB and DR. There we were left, at 3am in the morning, told there would be a further special to take us on to Dresden. After a 3-hour wait (fortunately it was a warm night), the 'special' arrived - it turned out to be the Paris-Prague train which had set out from the Gare de l'Est six hours after I had...

 

From Dresden, there were only three of us trying to get to Poland: local train to Goerlitz, then walk across the road bridge over the Neisse to Zgorzelec; finally the afternoon local train to Wroclaw.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Compound2632

[CovDriver]

Usually if 2Y64 2255 New St to Northampton is cancelled they will advise passengers to use other local services towards Coventry such as using the 2314 local to Coventry and then have a replacement bus from Coventry to all stations to Northampton. 

 

I think that 2Y64 is a Coventry job on Saturday I know for certain it is Mon-Fri as I'm on it one night next week.

 

I know that all driver turns had been covered from Coventry today so it may be staff sickness.

 

Cheers 

 

Colin  

[AMJ]

A few years ago I was on Chippenham station (a Saturday morning) heading to Bath for a day out including beer and rugby. The staff at the station told me one train has been cancelled and the next will be about 30 minutes time. They persuaded all passengers that they would be taken by taxis to Bath.

 

I was willing to wait as it was part of a relaxing day out! My off peak return was probably far less than the single taxi fare.

[phil-b259]

London Midland have a long-running driver shortage which results in short notice train cancellations. This has recently included the last Liverpool-Birmingham and the last Worcester; tonight, the 2254 Birmingham-Northampton is cancelled; NRES helpfully advises that the alternative is at 08.06 tomorrow,

What happens to the passenger intending to catch the service? I am thinking not just at New Street, where there might just possibly be staff around, but at intermediate stations where the only staff, the booking clerk booked off about 12 hours before? New Street is, I think, closed overnight - are you evicted into the street? How common is this on other TOCs, and what do they do when it happens?

The legal position is if you have a valid ticket the TOC are legally obliged to get you to destination. This can include paying for a taxi or arranging a rail replacement bus as appropriate.

 

Similarly if a train cancellation means you miss your onward connection, for example arriving at Birmingham too late to make a connection with the last train to Scotland then the TOC is still obliged to get you there - which could range from a train to Preston then a Taxi or a Taxi all the way from Birmingham.

 

If there is a driver shortage then usually the TOC will try and cancel the 2nd to last train - they can then put the affected passengers on the last service and avoid the need to fork out for Taxis / busses.

[roythebus]

The legal position is if you have a valid ticket the TOC are legally obliged to get you to destination. This can include paying for a taxi or arranging a rail replacement bus as appropriate.

 

Similarly if a train cancellation means you miss your onward connection, for example arriving at Birmingham too late to make a connection with the last train to Scotland then the TOC is still obliged to get you there - which could range from a train to Preston then a Taxi or a Taxi all the way from Birmingham.

 

If there is a driver shortage then usually the TOC will try and cancel the 2nd to last train - they can then put the affected passengers on the last service and avoid the need to fork out for Taxis / busses.

 

It is usually very difficult getting buses and coaches because, as someone mentioned above, drivers and vehicle will have been allocated for the next day's work. Like the railways, bus staff and vehicles have been cut to the bone over the years. There's very little spare capacity. The only time there may be some is weekday schooldays. there's quite a few bods like me around who just make ourselves available for rail replacement work, but it takes at least 2 hours to get from home to the depot depending on the Dartford Crossing, then half an hour to perp the bus, then however long it takes to get the bus to where it's needed.

 

There's a few firms around London that have rail replacement capacity built into their fleets. But, as Phil says, the last trains really must run!

[Rivercider]

During my time commuting to Westbury TOPS 1996-99 I relied on the train home from late turn, finishing at 22.00, for two and a half years.

There was a booked 7 minute connection at Bristol Temple Meads which was missed 4 times in the two and a half years,

each time transport was provided. Once it was a bus as the delay was part of a major problem, the other three journeys to Weston were by taxi,

one trip sharing with the late turn Temple Meads duty manager!

 

cheers

[mike morley]

Earlier this year I was on my way to the EM Gauge Society Chilterns Area Group meeting in Bedford by train.  When I got on at Fenny Stratford the conductor informed me his ticket issuing machine had failed and that I'd need to buy my ticket when I got to Bedford.

That wouldnt have been a problem, except the days torrential rain had got into the track circuiting and the train ground to a halt at Stewartby. 

After a lengthy delay the train was eventually cancelled.  The conductor assured us that a bus had been laid on to take us the rest of the way to Bedford (along with a warning that the problems with the track circuiting meant the level crossing gates could not be raised and the consequent traffic jam meant the bus would have great difficulty reaching us) but by then I was more worried about my lack of a valid ticket with a view to getting back to Bletchley/Fenny Stratford.  Was I in a position to demand London Midland provide a taxi home when I didnt have a ticket?  Somehow I doubted it.

A request to the train crew that they take me with them when they set off back to Bletchley was refused on the grounds that the first part of the journey would be wrong-line and passengers were not allowed under such circumstances.  The last bus from Bedford to Bletchley set off at 8pm, which was then just minutes away, and left me with visions of having to shell out fifty or sixty quid for a taxi home if I continued my journey to Bedford.

I abandoned the train with the intention of walking home, only to quickly realise that I'd be soaked to the skin and suffering from hypothermia when I eventually arrived at around midnight. In desperation I phoned my ex and begged her to come and collect me which, because she's a lovely lady, she agreed to immediately, and is why I'm taking her out to dinner at the Old Joint Stock in Birmingham this weekend.  That I had to wait for her in the pouring rain for well over an hour because she'd only got her new car that day and couldnt work out how to turn the lights on is an entirely different subject.

Anyway, my question is this; what is the position regarding replacement bus services, taxis etc when a passenger quite legitimately lacks a ticket?

Edited October 29, 2017 by mike morley

[ColinK]

Having no ticket must happen in mamy places. You could be waiting at an unstaffed station for the cancelled train.

[corneliuslundie]

A good many years ago my wife and I were travelling from Paddington to Llandrindod Wells. We had a choice of going via Craven Arms or Swansea. However, before the train had reached Reading  it had lost so much time (I can't remember why) that we had no chance of making either connection.

However, the guard came round asking about passengers with onward connections and took details. Before we got to Newport we were told to get off there and there would be a minibus waiting for the eight or nine of us heading for the Central Wales Line. It was

We arrived at Llandrindod on time, and passengers for Builth Road arrived an hour early!

However, the driver told us as we left Newport that he only knew the road as far as Brecon. Fortunately some of us did know the rest - I did because i had cycled it at various times, though not in the dark.

Jonathan

[phil-b259]

Earlier this year I was on my way to the EM Gauge Society Chilterns Area Group meeting in Bedford by train.  When I got on at Fenny Stratford the conductor informed me his ticket issuing machine had failed and that I'd need to buy my ticket when I got to Bedford.

That wouldnt have been a problem, except the days torrential rain had got into the track circuiting and the train ground to a halt at Stewartby. 

After a lengthy delay the train was eventually cancelled.  The conductor assured us that a bus had been laid on to take us the rest of the way to Bedford (along with a warning that the problems with the track circuiting meant the level crossing gates could not be raised and the consequent traffic jam meant the bus would have great difficulty reaching us) but by then I was more worried about my lack of a valid ticket with a view to getting back to Bletchley/Fenny Stratford.  Was I in a position to demand London Midland provide a taxi home when I didnt have a ticket?  Somehow I doubted it.

A request to the train crew that they take me with them when they set off back to Bletchley was refused on the grounds that the first part of the journey would be wrong-line and passengers were not allowed under such circumstances.  The last bus from Bedford to Bletchley set off at 8pm, which was then just minutes away, and left me with visions of having to shell out fifty or sixty quid for a taxi home if I continued my journey to Bedford.

I abandoned the train with the intention of walking home, only to quickly realise that I'd be soaked to the skin and suffering from hypothermia when I eventually arrived at around midnight. In desperation I phoned my ex and begged her to come and collect me which, because she's a lovely lady, she agreed to immediately, and is why I'm taking her out to dinner at the Old Joint Stock in Birmingham this weekend.  That I had to wait for her in the pouring rain for well over an hour because she'd only got her new car that day and couldnt work out how to turn the lights on is an entirely different subject.

Anyway, my question is this; what is the position regarding replacement bus services, taxis etc when a passenger quite legitimately lacks a ticket?

 

 

I'm struggling to see what the problem is.

 

Firstly It doesn't matter WHERE you bought your ticket - its the fact that you purchased a return ticket from Fenny Stratford to Bedford within the hours trains are scheduled* to be making that journey that matters. Hence if you purchased your ticket as soon as you arrived at Bedford then London Midland would have been obliged to return you back to Fenny Stratford later that evening by some method.

 

Secondly if you have been unable to purchase a ticket due to a failing by the train operator to provide the facilities (be it a working machine either on the platform or hanging round the conductors neck) to issue one, they cannot abandon you. Ticket machines have i.d. codes, staff have i.d. codes, trains have diagram numbers etc - the upshot being a few phone calls by the relevant staff would quickly clarify the situation if there was any difficulty in obtaining a ticket at Bedford.

 

As to your final question, see my next post.

 

* If you buy your ticket after the last train has departed as per the timetable information at the station then obviously the TOC are not going to help you out.

Edited October 30, 2017 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

Having no ticket must happen in mamy places. You could be waiting at an unstaffed station for the cancelled train.

 

You could - but this is where the importance of the published timetable for that station comes into play. If you arrive at a station with no ticketing facilities with sufficient time to catch the last train service of the day and this subsequently gets cancelled then the TOC still has a legal obligation to arrange alternative transport to pick you up and transport you to the station you want to go to PROVIDING of course that said journey could have been done within a single day had the train actually run. If you arrive after the last timetabled service has departed then tough - its your own fault.

[Talltim]

I'm struggling to see what the problem is.

 

Firstly It doesn't matter WHERE you bought your ticket - its the fact that you purchased a return ticket from Fenny Stratford to Bedford within the hours trains are scheduled* to be making that journey that matters. Hence if you purchased your ticket as soon as you arrived at Bedford then London Midland would have been obliged to return you back to Fenny Stratford later that evening by some method.

 

Secondly if you have been unable to purchase a ticket due to a failing by the train operator to provide the facilities (be it a working machine either on the platform or hanging round the conductors neck) to issue one, they cannot abandon you. Ticket machines have i.d. codes, staff have i.d. codes, trains have diagram numbers etc - the upshot being a few phone calls by the relevant staff would quickly clarify the situation if there was any difficulty in obtaining a ticket at Bedford.

 

As to your final question, see my next post.

 

* If you buy your ticket after the last train has departed as per the timetable information at the station then obviously the TOC are not going to help you out.

But you could have situations where your first opportunity to buy is after the last train has left/was supposed to have left because of the lateness of the train you are connecting from combined with no ticket facilities at your origin station and on the train. Edited October 30, 2017 by Talltim

[phil-b259]

But you could have situations where your first opportunity to buy is after the last train has left/was supposed to have left because of the lateness of the train you are connecting from combined with no ticket facilities at your origin station and on the train.

 

It is irrelevant to the matter of the TOCs obligations under contract law and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx

 

By travelling on a service you have entered into a legal contract with the TOC. While you agree to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity, the TOC is under a similar legal obligation to make facilities available for you to do so. As such if they cannot provide ticketing facilities then they are still legally bound to honer the contract and get you where you need to go. The flip side of this of course is that you, the passenger, have a legal obligation to buy a ticket at the first opportunity in such circumstances and honer your part of the contract between the two of you. In the unlikely event that it proves impossible to obtain a ticket for your journey, then as long as that failure is down to the TOC (or organisations they purchase services from like Network Rail in cases like a track circuit failure wrecking the service say), the legal obligation still stands.

 

So in your example, if you are allowed to buy your ticket on the train or the and the portable ticket issuing device is broken then the conductor can issue you with a note of explanation which will give you authority to seek onward travel. When you get to a place that can arrange it that note gets changed into a ticket and onward travel arranged

Edited October 30, 2017 by phil-b259

[D854_Tiger]

On the plus side I have used more than a few replacement busses over the years and the odd emergency taxi replacement and have never ever once been asked for my ticket so that it can be checked.

 

When it goes t**s up everything seems to be taken on trust and I guess if you were deviously minded you could easily take advantage of some of those bus replacements.

[phil-b259]

On the plus side I have used more than a few replacement busses over the years and the odd emergency taxi replacement and have never ever once been asked for my ticket so that it can be checked.

 

 

Thats basically because the TOCs claim back the costs of he buses from Network Rail (regardless of whether its something they have direct control over like an infrastructure fault / engineering work or something that isn't their fault like a suicide).

 

If the TOCs were compensated on a 'per person' basis then you can bet that ticket checks would be undertaken - mind you if you go down that route you start getting into questions like what if there aren't enough passengers to cover the costs of the buses etc or all the business of deciding how much every TOC should contribute for those travellers whose tickets involves more than one TOC.

[D854_Tiger]

Thats basically because the TOCs claim back the costs of he buses from Network Rail (regardless of whether its something they have direct control over like an infrastructure fault / engineering work or something that isn't their fault like a suicide).

 

If the TOCs were compensated on a 'per person' basis then you can bet that ticket checks would be undertaken - mind you if you go down that route you start getting into questions like what if there aren't enough passengers to cover the costs of the buses etc or all the business of deciding how much every TOC should contribute for those travellers whose tickets involves more than one TOC.

 

On some of the bus replacements I've been on it's been a bonus when the driver knows they way, let alone having a first clue about any of the rail tickets.

[Richard E]

I recall one RRB from Doncaster to York that took over 2 hours for the 43 mile journey and included a scenic tour of at least two housing estates in Doncaster ...

[D854_Tiger]

I recall one RRB from Doncaster to York that took over 2 hours for the 43 mile journey and included a scenic tour of at least two housing estates in Doncaster ...

 

When a bus replaces a local train it can be a real nightmare for the drivers as the station to station road route is more often than not totally illogical by road and can involve quite a bit of reversing.

 

Knowing the way is one thing but via every station, you really have to think about it, plus one driver told me he wasn't allowed to drop any passenger off on the wrong side of the road (I'm guessing something to do with insurance) leaving them with a road to cross in order to gain entry to, and access from, the station entrances.

 

Even when dropping passengers off at a station entrance, their very first move was to cross the road because that's where everyone normally heads.

[caradoc]

Some interesting observations on replacement bus services, If I may add some; A couple of years ago my daughter was travelling from Tonbridge to Strood, and the last train was cancelled (due to Signaller shortage !) The Driver of the replacement bus did not have a clue where they were going, not being local (either to the area or indeed the UK). The passengers had to direct the driver. And on Sundays 5th and 12th of November the line between Cathcart and Neilston is closed for engineering work; The train takes 17 minutes for this journey, the replacement bus takes 47 ! (every station being on a different main road). Such a time differential also partly explains the difficulty of replacing trains with buses, particularly for an unplanned incident.